Democratic Presidential Candidate Discussion (aka "No Bush in '04!")

Originally posted by mdnky
The Davis recall is a much needed thing, Cali is on of the most politically scewed states in the Union. Not to knock on anyone there, but there is some MAJOR reform needed in Cali. I feel bad for anyone living in a state that is that anti-constitution. As far as the Republicans causing it Arden, I doubt that's the main problem in the recall. A majority of voters asked for the recall, after a similar majority had elected Davis in the first place. That tells me they're sick of the BS.

Regardless of who wins in 04, there's alot of work that needs to be done. The major concern for that person will have to be the economy as a whole, nationally and locally.

Not sure what you think is so "screwed" about politics in CA. The recall process is definitely a mess. The process is about 100 years old and was meant to deal with the problems of its time, not those of the future.

Could you explain why CA is anti-constitution? I've never heard that one before.

~1 million voters signed the recall petition, that is hardly a majority!

Yes, the Republicans are the cause of the recall, but Gray Davis deserves his share of the blame as well.

Yes, I agree that CA's governor, being the leader of the world's 7th largest economy, has his work cut out for him. Of course gw's buddies made it a lot more difficult for him. The price gouging of the recent electricity crisis is responsible for about 40% of the recent budget deficit.
 
This recall can have two outcomes; either way it'll be lose-lose.

A) Gray Davis could be ousted, putting someone else into place who's not necessarily qualified to govern the largest state in the US. This may set a precedent where we consider it okay to recall our governor if he or she makes an unpopular policy decision, which is completely against the reason for having the recall system in the first place.

B) Gray Davis wins the recall and stays in office. This could send a message to the Issas of the world (or this country at least) that we won't take sh!t from them, but it could also get other corrupt (or not-so-corrupt) politicians comfortable and feeling safe that nothing will happen to them, providing no motivation to shape up.

Either way, this is a mess. I don't see it getting better until Bush is out of office and a strong Democrat is in his place.
 
Originally posted by arden
This recall can have two outcomes; either way it'll be lose-lose.

Either way, this is a mess. I don't see it getting better until Bush is out of office and a strong Democrat is in his place.

I agree, CA is going to suffer seriously for a millionaire's whim.

I'm not so sure about Dean. He has a strong showing now but I wonder if he can sustain that for another year? I think he is the best candidate so far. I'm not sure he's going to make it though.
 
Originally posted by Ugg
I'm not so sure about Dean. He has a strong showing now but I wonder if he can sustain that for another year? I think he is the best candidate so far. I'm not sure he's going to make it though.

My mother was saying something like this.... As if Dean is going to "peak to soon." What the hell is up with that? This isn't making love, this is a presidential campaign. This is just the start, and it's too early to determine who's going to win. But it seems that Dean has got himself an early lead, and as long as he keeps touring and spreads his message, I think he'll be just fine.

Any more democrats? Anyone?;)
 
Originally posted by Ugg
Most of the states with low crime rates and little or no gun legislation are rural not urban. Concealed weapons invariably lead to more violence not less and it has been proven numerous times that homeowners who own guns are more likely to be injured by their own gun during a robbery than those who don't own guns. The idea that guns lead to safety is naive.

There are very few states now without CCW, and they all have high crime rates (violent). Their rates are increasing at an alarming pace, not staying steady or dropping.

35 States have right-to-carry, 9 States have restricted/limited issuance (California, New York), and 6 States are right infringed (Ohio, Illionis).

I have no idea where you get your info on concealed weapons leading to more violence, there is no proof to support that assumption. Please provide some kind of link to this information. Everyone who made similar statements about CCW before it was implemented in their states have been proven wrong. As far as the homeowners, though I haven't seen any proof to this, I will agree if you're going to own one you better know how to use it. Same with driving a car, there is a responsibility on the owner's part. Not every situation calls for it, and I never said anything about it leading to safety...hell, you can easily find well over 200 things (everyday items) in a normal household to kill someone with if you were that desperate to. It is however, a right that can and should not be infringed upon.

Additional police on the streets do little to deter crime in those areas where it is most prevalent. Take those officers off the streets and the crime rate drops substantially. Clinton was instrumental in getting those guys out of their cars and onto bikes and their feet.

You really need to reread that and make sure it's what you meant to say. If so, prove it with some supporting facts. Maybe the way it was worded is the problem, but in the first part you say more cops on the streets is useless, but the second part that more is what helped. Were you meaning out of cars and on slower, more visable methods of patrolling?

The headlines of the last few days show that welfare rolls are substantially lower than during any previous economic downturn. This is due largely to those Clintonian waivers. The states have proven very effective, creative and compassionate in revising welfare.

More could have, and should have been done. Yes, progress has been made, but it's a band-aid...not a cure.

Charter schools are a mixed bag. Some work and some don't but they are public not private. The vouchers that gw & co. would like to put in place would clearly destroy public schools. Charter schools are different in every state but those that do work show once again that education is most successful when the community gets to make its own choices about it, not when the Fed. Govt. does. Bush' "No Child Left Behind" has only made schools worse, not better.

This system would also allow parents to choose a parochial school (Catholic or other religeous entity) and have it funded in full, or part, by tax money. NOT ACCEPTABLE. I honestly think we should do away with parochial schools, and do a major reform on public schools in general. Something based on the European school system as in France. Also, as a FYI, I spent Grades 1 thru the end of 7 at Catholic schools, 8 thru 12 at public.

My biggest complaint about Clinton was NAFTA. It was too much too soon, has devastated employment in the US, Mexico and Canada and has only succeeded in benefitting big business and the transportation industry. Bush has not proven to be any better though.

Couldn't put it any better on NAFTA.
 
Originally posted by Ugg
Could you explain why CA is anti-constitution? I've never heard that one before.

~1 million voters signed the recall petition, that is hardly a majority!

Yes, the Republicans are the cause of the recall, but Gray Davis deserves his share of the blame as well.

Yes, I agree that CA's governor, being the leader of the world's 7th largest economy, has his work cut out for him. Of course gw's buddies made it a lot more difficult for him. The price gouging of the recent electricity crisis is responsible for about 40% of the recent budget deficit.

Residents of CA live in one of, if not the most, repressed states in the union. Major cities more than outlying areas. Look at some of the ridiculous laws on the books, and compare them to other areas, and you'll see why I say this. What may seem normal to someone there, is very abnormal and downright illegal to others.

If any of the amendments of the Constitution are oppressed (1 and 2 in particular), then that's good enough for me to classify it oppressed. Personal view-point, take it as you may.

Davis and every other politician in the state should share blame, unfortunately for Davis he will bear the grunt of it.

There's alot more than an energy crisis to blame, namely MISMANAGEMENT. Many other factors come into play, one being...why can't CA hold onto the jobs and companies already there? They need to grow that sector to prosper, not loose or even maintain a certain level. Too many factors, too little time, not to mention it's a mood point to me...all is good where I live, and it's not CA.

Hopefully someone will get in there and shake things up...


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Originally posted by adambyte
Any more democrats? Anyone?;)

The most disgusting problem with party-based politics...people vote based on their party, and not the best person for the job.

Anyone who votes a straight ticket on a ballot, or votes without knowing what the cantidates stand for, shouldn't be voting at all. It's something serious, not a "bandwagon" thing.
 
Originally posted by mdnky
Originally posted by Ugg


You really need to reread that and make sure it's what you meant to say. If so, prove it with some supporting facts. Maybe the way it was worded is the problem, but in the first part you say more cops on the streets is useless, but the second part that more is what helped. Were you meaning out of cars and on slower, more visable methods of patrolling?



More could have, and should have been done. Yes, progress has been made, but it's a band-aid...not a cure.



This system would also allow parents to choose a parochial school (Catholic or other religeous entity) and have it funded in full, or part, by tax money. NOT ACCEPTABLE. I honestly think we should do away with parochial schools, and do a major reform on public schools in general. Something based on the European school system as in France. Also, as a FYI, I spent Grades 1 thru the end of 7 at Catholic schools, 8 thru 12 at public.



Couldn't put it any better on NAFTA.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the gun issue. You are a die hard for, I am against. Guns are for hunting animals, IMO and they people should be able to own them for that reason. When the prey is human is when guns have no place in society.

Oops, mistake on my part. Officers in cars are much less effective than officers on foot or on bike or even on motorcycles. Community policing has been wildly successful and we have Clinton to thank for that.

When it comes to social welfare, it has been proven time and time again that state approaches to issues work better than federal ones. The system wasn't built in a day, nor did it take but a day to mess it up. Clinton started the process, gw has done little to follow it up. Of course, anything that was Clinton's is automatic anethma to gw. Too bad.

Charter schools vs school vouchers are two different things. Vouchers would mean that 90% of the students would attend religious schools. Charter schools so far to my knowledge, have not translated into religious schools. Each state has its own process but most states want nothing to do with funding religion with tax dollars. Once again, this is a process to see what works and what doesn't. gw wants vouchers, IMO, a disaster for students and schools and the nation. Once again, gw has failed the nation with his no child left behind program. Unfunded federal mandates are the last thing this country's education system needs.

gw & co has been even more strident on world trade issues, just wait, the worst is yet to come.
 
Originally posted by mdnky
Residents of CA live in one of, if not the most, repressed states in the union. Major cities more than outlying areas. Look at some of the ridiculous laws on the books, and compare them to other areas, and you'll see why I say this. What may seem normal to someone there, is very abnormal and downright illegal to others.

If any of the amendments of the Constitution are oppressed (1 and 2 in particular), then that's good enough for me to classify it oppressed. Personal view-point, take it as you may.

Davis and every other politician in the state should share blame, unfortunately for Davis he will bear the grunt of it.

There's alot more than an energy crisis to blame, namely MISMANAGEMENT. Many other factors come into play, one being...why can't CA hold onto the jobs and companies already there? They need to grow that sector to prosper, not loose or even maintain a certain level. Too many factors, too little time, not to mention it's a mood point to me...all is good where I live, and it's not CA.

Hopefully someone will get in there and shake things up...


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The most disgusting problem with party-based politics...people vote based on their party, and not the best person for the job.

Anyone who votes a straight ticket on a ballot, or votes without knowing what the cantidates stand for, shouldn't be voting at all. It's something serious, not a "bandwagon" thing.

What are the laws you speak of? I think few Californians would consider it to be a repressed state.

You are making vague claims about constitutional violations but arent' backing them up.....

When it comes to the electricity crisis, no one person or group of persons can shoulder the blame. It was a comedy of errors that had disastrous results for CA and the nation. gw should shoulder his share of it along with enron, Davis, the power companies, the idiots that wrote the deregulation laws, a federal electricity transmission system that is fatally flawed, etc. Let's hope that this abortion of justice recall brings some good and that someone can clean up the mess.

CA bore the brunt of the dotcom bust. The jobs scenario is not good but the rest of the west coast is in the same boat. It'll be booming again before long I'm sure. It is the center of the entertainment industry and many of the top tech companies are located here. Both are boom and bust industries.

Kentucky is hardly a bed of roses according to news reports. Not that any place in the US has it easy right now.CA has an unemployment rate of ~6.3% and Kentucky is at 6.2%. Hardly a significant difference.



Link

California already has one of the most efficient state governments in the nation. It has the fewest number of state and local government employees per population of any state, and traditionally it has led the nation in the quality of its efficiency watchdogs

The truth is California has tracked the national economy over the last several years. People are hurting, and times are not great, especially in Northern California, but the state has not experienced a deep recession. That came in 1991 through 1994, when California's unemployment rate averaged 8.8%. Since 2001 the rate has averaged 6.3%. After inflation is taken into account, California's gross state product declined in 1991, 1992 and 1993. For the last three years, by the same measure, the state's economy has continued to expand, though at a lower rate.


Yep, party based politics have led us into the mess we are all in.


By the way, it's moot, not mood, point
 
Ok, I thought that's what you meant but wanted to make sure.

The problem with the schools in the US, many have way too much money, and too many have very little money. Nothing is equal. Every student deserves the same, fair treatment and exposure, to education.

Nationalize the system. Redistrict and spend the same $ on each student, regardless of where (in relation to costs per area). Beverly Hills gets the same as Inez, KY (coal town). Ban parochial schools as primary education. If they want religious education, do it on their own time. Parents could also use that money (parochial tuition) in a savings plan for college instead. Strict requirements for teachers, and much better pay. Make schools year-round, and increase hours per day. Remove grade levels, and require proficiency before passing onto the next level, similar to the no 1-3 thing some states have done.

$3000 avg. a year for elementary/grade school over 7 years = $21,000 without figuring in inflation and etc. Compound that with interest over those 7 years and that would have paid tuition for any standard college (in-state) easily for 5 years at today’s rates.

Last figure I saw was around the 4% mark for KY...which is about the usual.

Partly my blame, but i think it's a bit off topic now.
 
Originally posted by mdnky
The most disgusting problem with party-based politics...people vote based on their party, and not the best person for the job.

Anyone who votes a straight ticket on a ballot, or votes without knowing what the cantidates stand for, shouldn't be voting at all. It's something serious, not a "bandwagon" thing.

Right.... I'm sorry. I didn't make myself clear. I was using the word "Democrat" as an idealogical term, not a party. Don't think I just blindly vote for ANY "democrat." I apologize.

But hey, it's not my fault if the best people for the job are usually either Democrats or Green party people. :D
 
Originally posted by Ugg
Yep, party based politics have led us into the mess we are all in.

btw, Don't blame me. And don't even blame your current politicians. Blame the founders of this country for creating a government which relies on a two-party system, the electoral college, and crap like that.

The reason they did this is, they didn't want radical revolutions making change overnight. For them, it was all about keeping order, and making it so that any change would be gradual.
 
Dean said last week that the United States should not take sides in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. He denied tonight that he was advocating a significant policy change but said there is no way for the United States to help bring peace to the Middle East without being a "credible negotiator" trusted by both sides. "It doesn't help, Joe, to demagogue this issue," Dean said. "We're all Democrats; we need to beat George Bush so we can have peace in the Middle East."

Vote for this man. He is a Good Thing.
 
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