HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL: Things that I miss from Windows

[Hypernate]

Well, actually, there's only REALLY two things that I miss, but once I've had my mac for over a week, I'll get used to it lol!

1. The taskbar. Sure, I know the Dock is kinda like the taskbar, but it doesn't show ever window you have open, like the taskbar does. I mean, on MSN Messenger, I have a nasty habit of just clicking on a different window rather than minimising the chat box. So when the little MSN thing in the dock leaps out from under the screen (So cute with the hidden dock lol!), I click that, and ALL my MSN windows open. So I don't even know which window is active.

2. Full screen maximising. I feel cluttered, even with the high resolution 15inch LCD, I stil feel cluttered. I'm sure it's got to do with not having the application full screen, and having a Taskbar. I'm sure I'll get used to it though! Having said that about feeling cluttered, I do now feel cluttered everytime I use my Mum's Windows XP box. I think it's because it's on a 15inch CRT and M$ bloated the XP taskbar.

Please note: This post does not mean that I think the Apple products suck. Overall, I think that Mac OS is still (in my opinion) a better operating system

As I type this, I have found another thing that I miss.

3. Internet Explorer automatically scrolling down as I type past the bottom of the screen.

Ah well, c'est la vie, and anyway, I wouldn't trade my Mac for anything!

 

[buc99]

1. The taskbar. Sure, I know the Dock is kinda like the taskbar, but it doesn't show ever window you have open, like the taskbar does. I mean, on MSN Messenger, I have a nasty habit of just clicking on a different window rather than minimising the chat box. So when the little MSN thing in the dock leaps out from under the screen (So cute with the hidden dock lol!), I click that, and ALL my MSN windows open. So I don't even know which window is active.

This is an easy fix. See the little black triangles pointing at the open app icon in the dock? This tells you what apps are currently running. This is more of a visual representation than the word representation the Windows toolbar uses. You can very easily tab through your open apps to pull which ever app you want to the foreground.

2. Full screen maximising. I feel cluttered, even with the high resolution 15inch LCD, I stil feel cluttered. I'm sure it's got to do with not having the application full screen, and having a Taskbar. I'm sure I'll get used to it though! Having said that about feeling cluttered, I do now feel cluttered everytime I use my Mum's Windows XP box. I think it's because it's on a 15inch CRT and M$ bloated the XP taskbar.

First off, you can hide all the open apps you wish or minimze them to the toolbar. Then in the upper left hand corner of the foremost open window click the + button. This will maximize the open window to the maximum size required by the app. If this still not big enough, use the lower right hand corner to open the window as far as you wish. You can also hide the dock so that it does not interfere with that open window. This window will retain it's size if you minimize or hide it. It will revert to normal if the app is shutdown and restarted. (See answer to question 1 for scrolling through open apps.)

3. Internet Explorer automatically scrolling down as I type past the bottom of the screen.

Can't help you much here. This is a microsoft failure not a failure of the OS. However, you can use the arrows keys to move the page down farther. Granted, it's not automatic, but hey, your using the most advanced OS out there on one of the best built computers in the world. Sounds like a minimal price to pay. Also, there are a bunch of browsers out there that smoke internet explorer. Give them a try. You might find something you like more. I currently use Mozzila because I love the "tabbed web pages" feature.

Hope some of this helps.
I personally don't miss anything from my slow %^$ 1Ghz dell at work. I don't even use it most of the time. My Tibook smokes it and it runs UNIX, Mac, and Windbloze apps. Man I got the best of all three worlds.

Before I go off on a tangent here can I get an "Amen" from the crowd. Thank you Mr. Jobs, and especially all the hard working employees at Apple, fot the best darn OS in the world. Keep on trucking.

SA

 

[chenly]

Amen!

 

[nkuvu]

Amen!

Why do I feel like I've been recruited into a religion...?

 

[voice-]

MSN messenger don't cut it at all, and I really don't think MS is gonna update it unless they can make money in doing so.
I want a 3rd party app for MSN like Adium for AIM.
Adium offers tabs in the single-window mode, and it really cleans up the mess I used to have with AIM and multiple windows.
If MSN could have this as well, I'd be content.

 

[Valrus]

It is a religion.

We got a new iMac in the basement of our campus center. It was a spiritual experience to touch it. I had this cut on my arm and now it's gone. It was so beautiful.

Kidding.

Sort of.

-the valrus

 

[buc99]

Preach the truth brother

Amen.

 

[RacerX]

point made by Hypernate
2. Full screen maximising. I feel cluttered, even with the high resolution 15inch LCD, I stil feel cluttered. I'm sure it's got to do with not having the application full screen, and having a Taskbar. I'm sure I'll get used to it though! Having said that about feeling cluttered, I do now feel cluttered everytime I use my Mum's Windows XP box. I think it's because it's on a 15inch CRT and M$ bloated the XP taskbar.

It is funny that you bring that up. I have found that many Windows users want their applications to take over the screen. Which is something that Windows apps do generally. Mac apps are rootless (that is not rooted or nested in a single window) which lets you see the desktop and other non-hidden apps while working on your current app. As I sit here typing into TextEdit for this reply, I can see your post in OmniWeb and also see iTunes and Mail at the same time. When in Photoshop, I can see an open finder window which has all my current images in it, which means I can double click on any of them to open (without using the open command). Windows makes people very task oriented, in fact some users don't even know how to use their systems outside of certain apps because they never see the system running behind their maximized applications. Most Mac users multitask. All of my Mac clients require having a number of apps open at once, and being able to see other apps running in the background helps make them more productive.

Strangely enough I had almost the same reaction that you are having when I first used a Windows system. I started up Photoshop, and to my surprise a gray window completely covered the screen! I thought this was strange because I hadn't even started opening any images yet. So I change the size of the window so I could see the icons of my images on the desktop. Then again, I was surprised to find that all the image windows were trapped inside the primary window!

When I started to do IT work, one of the first things about life long Windows users I noticed was that they would make the file browser windows full screen (even for windows with only a few icons). This meant that they could not see any other directory other than the one they were looking at at that moment, thus drag and drop was something completely foreign to them.

Honestly, Windows was misnamed. The way most users use their systems it should really be call Full Screen.

 

[Gwailo]

Just click and hold on the application, including the Finder, and a window list will pop up, with a checkmark next to the frontmost one.

 

[nkuvu]

Responding primarily to RacerX:

What I miss about Windows is the Explorer. The Windows Explorer, not IE. The reason is that I had a two pane window -- one side for the directory structure, the other for the current directory. I find that Macintosh forces you to clutter your screen with multiple windows open. I never used the individual windows on Windows to do file manipulation. I completely agree with that. But the Mac OS doesn't give me a decent file manager to replace the functionality of Windows Explorer. Drag and drop? Of course. I did that all the time. I could also select one directory so that it shows up on the right, and highlight what I want to copy/move. Then scroll up on the left to find the target directory, keeping the right hand side the same. Drag them files over there, poof! In Macintosh I have to have both windows open. When I drag and drop, the target windows does not automatically raise itself. So I have three choices. Move the source window behind the target, and try to grab the file and drag it to the source. Move the target window behind, and blindly drop files, hoping that I am getting the right window. Size the windows down so small that I can't see anything in either window. Sorry to blather on about it.

The other thing that I used to dislike about Macintosh. Deleting files. When using a Mac (prior to OS X) I had to have the desktop visible. That was the only way to delete files. I'm used to pressing a button on the keyboard, so it was pretty frustrating to have to show the desktop at all times. Now I have trash on the dock, and I also have a keyboard command (command-delete). So I think that at least some of the non-maximizing behavior of long time Mac users is due to that.

Finally -- full screen work is very beneficial when using low resolutions and anything like Photoshop. Since Photoshop has about a bazillion windows open at any time, you need a lot of screen real estate to be able to make your image large enough to work on.

Honestly, I love my Mac, and I am never going to go back to using Windows. But there are definitely some things I wold like to change. Not nearly as many things as what I'd like to change in Windows, by the way. Oh, and voice -- have you tried Fire?

 

[vic]

i thought there was a mac explorer... look around versiontracker..

 

[buc99]

I don't understand your argument on the finder. There are three different views in the finder now. As a matter of fact, if you put the view mode into column, you have a view of your whole directory which is even "more" functional than explorer. I have two open finder windows side by side in column view and I can drag and drop files anywhere I want. I find this is much more functional than the windows explorer. It may take awhile to get used to the new functionality in the OSX finder, but after I set it up the way I wanted I've found traversing the filesystem much simpler than the old finder and alot simpler than Windows explorer.

Don't be afraid of change. Change is good. OSX rocks!

Can I get another Amen?

Preach on!
SA

 

[dricci]

I miss the blue screen. It was much more customizable colorwise than a kernel panic.

 

[RacerX]

posted by nkuvu
What I miss about Windows is the Explorer...
and
In Macintosh I have to have both windows open...

Okay, first, Windows Explorer is not the default file browser on Windows. If it was them you might have something of a case... not really because in the Mac OS you have cascading folders which means you can navigate any mounted volume from one window. Second, why would having two windows open be such a hard ship? The only time I could see it being a problem is if you are still trying to maximize each window. My original PowerBook Duo 280 had a display that was 640 x 400, on that system I could have a number of windows open in the finder at once without them over lapping. With today's resolutions, that just does not hold water.

The other thing that I used to dislike about Macintosh. Deleting files... Now I have trash on the dock, and I also have a keyboard command (command-delete).

News flash... that command for moving items to the trash has been around at least since Mac OS 8.

So I think that at least some of the non-maximizing behavior of long time Mac users is due to that.

Like I said in my post it has to do with being able to see a number of apps at once. Why would you need to not maximize apps so you can see the trash? The trash is part of the finder that you don't need while in other apps.

Finally -- full screen work is very beneficial when using low resolutions and anything like Photoshop. Since Photoshop has about a bazillion windows open at any time, you need a lot of screen real estate to be able to make your image large enough to work on.

What does that have to do with needing everything in a root window? That is an argument for a high resolution display, not for rooting all windows of an application within a single window. If I am working on something in QuarkXPress, and I need to alter an image so it matches everything else on that page, being able to look at the QuarkXPress doc open in the background while working on that image in Photoshop becomes very important (and the reason that most graphic professionals are unwilling to move to Windows). And what about moving from app to app to app depending on what is happening in that app at that time. A tile on the task bar doesn't tell me when Photoshop has finished rendering a large job while I browse the internet or check my e-mail. I almost never type straight into OmniWeb because I can use TextEdit and still see the subject that I am typing about at the same time. Moving from one window to another to another makes the environment seem connected. Again, most regular windows users can't even function outside of a hand full of apps, and navigating their computers with any of the file browsing methods in Windows proves to be down right scary for them (try doing phone tech support for Windows, then you would get the picture).

And lets not forget that before Windows 98, by default you would get a new window for every directory. And when you have users that need to have everything maximized, that can get pretty bad. I have tried to get users to think of their computers screens as desktops (which is why it is call that by the way), windows on a screen should only be as large as they are needed for the information they contain. How many people would require that paper memos and letters be 7' by 4' so that they cover their real desktops?

Just so you can get an idea of what I am talking about, I have made CDs on Windows before. The application took up the full screen even though I didn't need any of the stuff that was being displayed. Here (image attached below, reduced in colors and size to get the file size down) we have Toast on my Quadra 950 (a 1991 Macintosh that is still in heavy use today). I am burning a CD from one of the folders in the open window, all I did was drag and drop the folder to Toast. Why would I need the window or Toast to take up my full screen?

 

[voice-]

Yes, I've tried Fire, and except from stability worse than Windows 98, it and Protesus seem like good alternatives.
And that flashing tranparency of updated windows in the background looks cute, stylish and fancy

Come to think of it, I miss that...I'll give Fire another try...
Does it import contacts now(from the net or MSN/Adium)? I'm NOT gonna use this if I have to add all my buddys again

 

[Hypernate]

I suppose for me it's still the getting used to the new OS. And I definately see your point about the root window stuff. I think the only reason I feel cluttered IS because I can see everything behind the window. The background, even as a built-in Apple background, has more colours than the grey 'box'.

Aqua is so much nicer than Windows anyway

Once I get my ADSL connection I will have a system to die for, even if it ISN'T a dual 1ghz

 

[nkuvu]

I'll try to answer everything, but forgive me if I miss something...

voice said:
except from stability worse than Windows 98

I haven't had any problems running Fire at all. Not a single crash. I don't have MSN contacts, but it did import perfectly from ICQ.

RacerX stated:
Okay, first, Windows Explorer is not the default file browser on Windows.

No, it's not. I never said it was. But I don't have the same ability in Mac OS. Column view is not the default, either. So I don't think this argument addresses my points.

The only time I could see it being a problem is if you are still trying to maximize each window.

That's exactly what I am trying to do. Work in the Finder with one window. Maybe it's from the fact that Windows is so unstable, and I don't want to open any more apps than necessary. I can't really explain it well, but small windows make me feel like it's cramped, no matter what the resolution. I'm running 1024x768 on the iMac, and I ran 800x600 on Win2K. The screen feels smaller on the mac, even though my physical screen size has actually gone up (from 14" CRT to 15" LCD).

News flash...

Yep, that was a news flash. I'm not familiar with anything Mac between OS 7 and 9. So forgive me if I miss things.

The trash is part of the finder that you don't need while in other apps.

But when you are in the Finder, you can't maximize because you'd still need to see the trash. Once again, ignore the fact that I wasn't aware of the keyboard command.

What does that have to do with needing everything in a root window?

Nothing. It has to do with making your windows full screen. Once again, it's the cramped feeling from having too much in one window.

And lets not forget that before Windows 98, by default you would get a new window for every directory.

And by default with every Mac OS before OS X you get the same behavior. The difference is maximizing windows, but still the same "new window for every directory".

buc99 said:
if you put the view mode into column, you have a view of your whole directory which is even "more" functional than explorer. I have two open finder windows side by side in column view and I can drag and drop files anywhere I want.

More functional? You see the whole parent directory, and the contents of the current directory. What if I want to move one file from something in /etc/a/directory/that/is/insanely/deep to /var/another/directory/that/is/also/stupidly/deep? And still be able to see the contents of the first directory? Two windows, yes that would do it. I can do it with one window in Explorer.


I know, a lot of this is just getting used to things. And I want to emphasize that I hate Windows. But I really am used to one Explorer window. Whether the task bar icons tell me anything is not what I am talking about -- the dock is far superior to the task bar, IMHO. I'm not trying to resist the change, but like I said before -- there are things I am used to doing the Windows way.

 

[RacerX]

Originally posted by nkuvu
No, it's not. I never said it was. But I don't have the same ability in Mac OS. Column view is not the default, either. So I don't think this argument addresses my points.

First, column view is one of the defaults for Mac OS X. Second, I did bring up the fact that you can navigate from a single window in the Mac OS. That addresses your points about having more than one, and the fact that most people don't use Windows Explorer because it doesn't open when you double click any directory. You have to go hunting in the start menu to find it.

That's exactly what I am trying to do (maximize windows). Work in the Finder with one window...

Why would you want to do that (for Windows or for a Mac)? If you have a directory with only a few things in it, trying to get it to full 800 x 600 or 1024 x 768 is just a complete waste of space. What would you do with 1600 x 1200?

But when you are in the Finder, you can't maximize because you'd still need to see the trash. Once again, ignore the fact that I wasn't aware of the keyboard command.

In Mac OS X you can ad an icon to the tool bar that puts stuff in the trash, you can ad and remove folders as needed, do what ever makes you happy.

It has to do with making your windows full screen. Once again, it's the cramped feeling from having too much in one window.

What are you displaying in a finder window that needs 1024 x 768???

And by default with every Mac OS before OS X you get the same behavior. The difference is maximizing windows, but still the same "new window for every directory".

What did you think the arrows next to folders did in the list view? Like I've said (twice already), you can explorer a volume from a single window in the Mac OS by default. No extra stuff needs to be added, you don't need to find a hidden file browser, it just works.

But just for the sake of argument can you please point out what advantage these two screen shots have? And why they work so much better completely maximized instead of just taking up a small amount of space on the screen?

 

[nkuvu]

I'm getting kinda tired of this -- not because of anything you've said, but more because I feel like I can't get my point across (I don't feel that I am explaining myself well). I'm a little tired this evening, but I'll try to explain myself some more.

If I have a directory with only a few things in it, the full sized window is ridiculous. As is shown by your screenshots. At work I deal with a lot of source code files. In each directory there are anywhere from 20 to 500 different files. Working with this many files in a small window is very frustrating for me -- I don't feel that I can see everything.

Add an icon to the toolbar? Why would you do this if you have 1. a keyboard command and 2. a trash can on the dock? If you'll look back, when I was talking about the trash on the desktop I was referring to pre-OS X systems. Which, IIRC, did not have a toolbar anyway. They did have the keyboard command which I was not aware of.

The Explorer is not the default action to open a window, but that is one of the first things I change when starting with a new Windows system. So when I double click I get an Explorer, not a single window. It is normally difficult to access unless you know the "secret" keyboard command to activate it. I say secret because I have never seen the shortcut documented. I've only heard about them at all by word-of-mouth. (It's the WinKey+E, btw) So yes, score yet another point for Apple making a better UI.

List view is not at all what I want. Yes, there's the whole directory structure. But to copy files I have to scroll a whole lot. I started writing out how these are different, and each view is something not quite right. But the explanation is long, tedious, and not too clear.

And I'm really tired, so I'm going to bed. Maybe I'll try to explain in the morning...

On Monday (if I remember) I'll post some screenshots from Windows which may help to illustrate my point.

 

[RacerX]

I didn't mean to add any time pressure, this is just something I have watched many Windows users do for a long time and would love to find out what their mind set is.

Reply when you feel up to it, I wouldn't mind the long version. It would be something I would be very interested in actually.