AMD new licensee, Apple

Interesting little tidbit I just found:
"Dr. Ruiz joined AMD January 2000 as president and chief operating officer. He also serves on the Board of Directors. Prior to joining AMD, Dr. Ruiz served as president of Motorola's Semiconductor Products Sector. In his 22-year career with the global technology firm he held a variety of executive positions in the United States and overseas."
 
Originally posted by MacLuv

Apple can no longer claim the G4 processor as a benefit to it's customers. No matter what real-world advantages the G4 claims over the competition.

People have been comparing XP to OSX for a long time now, but the truth is we cannot really compare the two until the playing field is leveled.

The benefits are still there you just choose not to see them because you are buying into the x86 myth that faster is better. You are comparing this to a different pipeline, different architecture and different specification.

We do not know exactly how much faster the x86 would be running MacOS X86. The current OS took us a huge leap into the future. This OS has interface changes that really SHOULD be on a 64 bit chip, not a 32 bit chip no matter how fast you pump up the cpu speed.

MacOS 10 itself is a great 32 bit OS, the darwin part but when you stick Aqua, Quartz, OpenGL, JFS and all the rest your computer comes hurtling down to a snails speed. The way to overcome this is to either add more CPU's or move to 64bit. A 5Ghz 32bit AMD cpu still wouldn't give us what we need right now. We need to move to on, leave 32 bit behind and stop thinking this si the answer.

If we move to those power consuming AMD chips, expect to have 3-4 fans in your computer just to cool it off. Watch your electric bills soar. Say goodbye to quiet moments in front of the computer and watch your computer room turn into a server lab because it's so LOUD with all those fans ROARING like a jet engine.
 
Originally posted by threesixty

The fact that the latest Macs have dual processors as standard just to “maybe” match a top end PC is crazy. And Apple is only just getting away with this. When the new Pentium and AMD processors come out the party is over.
Apple know this. Speed/Price is why Apple cant gain PC market share.

All Apple have to do is rebrand the AMD chip so its not exactly the same name as the PC one (keep the snobbery going). And pop it in the new PowerMacs and Bobs your uncle! You;ve got a great “SPEEDY” OS that will probably burn any PC. Its such an easy solution to the problem, that it would be crazy for Apple to do anything else. AMD is not INTEL so it’s a politically sound move. Some OS X code that is very low level may not work anymore, but hey, I’d rather do this now than in 2 years time when a whole load of programs wont work.

G4 is still speedy and 2 processors are always better than one. That is why future AMD and Intel chips are going to add a special layer to their chips to emulate dual processor machines with a single chip. Apple realized this a long time ago.

The PPC 970 is the only answer in my eyes. Windows XP is speedy because of the technology it uses. It doesn't have Quartz powering the interface. It doesn't have an Aqua gui. Run any unix command line app and it screams because it doesn't need the overhead of the gui. Put MacOS X on the dinky 32bit Intel or AMD cpu and you'll find it bringing those cpu's down as well.

The answer lies in 64 bit. We need more data crunching per cycle to do the tasks we need to do on a mac. The fact remains macs just do more number crunching than a PC. We are using a modern OS with cutting edge technology underneath. They need to add more cutting edge to it but only can do so once we've moved to 64bit IBM 970.

It's all about 970. AMD and Intel are going to fight it out over the 64bit standards on a PC platform. THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHICH ONE WILL BE THE TRUE 64bit YET!!! Why is apple going to use technology that might fizzle once the true winner is declared. If history shows anything, Intel will win. Itanium may not be the most compatible but peopple trust intel, not AMD.
 
Originally posted by terran74
MacOS 10 itself is a great 32 bit OS, the darwin part but when you stick Aqua, Quartz, OpenGL, JFS and all the rest your computer comes hurtling down to a snails speed. The way to overcome this is to either add more CPU's or move to 64bit. A 5Ghz 32bit AMD cpu still wouldn't give us what we need right now. We need to move to on, leave 32 bit behind and stop thinking this si the answer.
The AMD Opteron is a 64-bit processor!
If we move to those power consuming AMD chips, expect to have 3-4 fans in your computer just to cool it off. Watch your electric bills soar. Say goodbye to quiet moments in front of the computer and watch your computer room turn into a server lab because it's so LOUD with all those fans ROARING like a jet engine.
Take a look inside the dual 1.25ghz G4, the cooling system is massive. Same thing either way. The G4 is dead.
 
Originally posted by terran74
G4 is still speedy and 2 processors are always better than one. That is why future AMD and Intel chips are going to add a special layer to their chips to emulate dual processor machines with a single chip. Apple realized this a long time ago.
Ummm, no? The G4 is nearly 4 years old, and has only reached 1.25ghz. That is not speedy. The megahertz myth was only upheld truely by AltiVec in special photoshop filters. AMD could easily add an instruction-compatable vector processing unit to their chips for Apple. The dual processor G4 systems are a joke, have you looked at any benchmarks? They are poorly designed: bottlenecked by a extremely slow system bus and RAM that both processors have to share. They do not perform twice as fast like Apple would like you to believe, they are only capable of processing more stuff (though nowhere near twice as much like they should due to mentioned bottlenecks) at once at the same speed. The AMD Opteron is designed for MP systems, there is no "layer" to emulate a dual processor machine, where did you get this from? You can't "emulate" a dual processor machine, it would be utterly pointless! AMD in fact has some of the best technology for MP systems out there: HyperTransport. Each chip gets its own bus, memory controller, and direct pipeline{s} to communicate with {the} other processor{s}. No bottlenecks here.
The PPC 970 is the only answer in my eyes. Windows XP is speedy because of the technology it uses. It doesn't have Quartz powering the interface. It doesn't have an Aqua gui. Run any unix command line app and it screams because it doesn't need the overhead of the gui. Put MacOS X on the dinky 32bit Intel or AMD cpu and you'll find it bringing those cpu's down as well.
Once again, missing the point that Apple would be using AMD's 64-bit Opteron...there is no dinkyness about it. Run a DOS command line app on XP. Same thing. The PPC 970 would be an answer, if it were ready for the market right now...too bad it's an entire year away, at least. Not an answer. The G4 is beyond dead.
The answer lies in 64 bit. We need more data crunching per cycle to do the tasks we need to do on a mac. The fact remains macs just do more number crunching than a PC. We are using a modern OS with cutting edge technology underneath. They need to add more cutting edge to it but only can do so once we've moved to 64bit IBM 970.
Well you got the 64-bit part right but once again failed to recognize AMD's current 64-bit offering...
It's all about 970. AMD and Intel are going to fight it out over the 64bit standards on a PC platform. THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHICH ONE WILL BE THE TRUE 64bit YET!!! Why is apple going to use technology that might fizzle once the true winner is declared. If history shows anything, Intel will win. Itanium may not be the most compatible but peopple trust intel, not AMD.
No, it's not. The PPC 970 is a long ways off. And what is to say that the PPC 970 won't 'fizzle'? Anything could 'fizzle' at any time. Intel provides no backwards compatability for 32-bit apps, AMD does. What would you choose? Perhaps you should read this article to get a little more real information:
http://www.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2002-May/001416.html
And perhaps this as well to get a better idea of what AMD has to offer:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~steen/web02/opteron.html
 
I have a few points I wanted to make here and there while reading :

1- One person said that moving to a x86 architecture would require the major application makers like adobe, microsoft, macromedia... to commit to port their application. This is true and it's the problem here. Microsoft already said it wasn't sure it would make future version of office for mac due ( allegedly ) to poor sales. If apple move to x86, they definitely won't make it. The hacker community is strong and whatever protection apple put in their computer to prevent XP from being installed in mac or more importantly, OSX from being installed in pc WILL be overcome. Apple will be a competitor to microsoft and in this scenario, microsoft will certainly not help apple by porting office.

2- A few post talked about the advantage of G4 being altivec. Altivec is a pretty good SIMD ( single instruction multiple data ) processing unit but every processor has one. Apple just marketed theirs better. MMX, 3Dnow, SSE, SSE2 in pentium and athlon are "equivalents". MMX for one, I can say it's inferior. It's a poor 64bit vector unit extremely limited in it's usage. Each instructions has been designed to do one task and it's so specialized that it's pretty hard to use in for anything else. But the others appeared after MMX and while I don't know them enough to say how they compare to altivec, they are definitely improvement over the MMX.

3- OSX is way more overhead than XP. It offers more possibilities, features, processor intensive eye-candy which makes it slower. It's a design choice. A car that would run without radio, AC, heater, headlights,... just the bare minimum ( like a race car ) would be faster and more efficient but the goal of a car is not only speed, it has to be usable. Heater is necessary in winter and headlights are necessary during night. For computers, it's the same thing. If you want real raw power ( like supercomputers ), get rid of the gui, get rid of the fancy video card and run deamons ( faceless applications, no interface ) or maybe text based interface. No need for a dictionary, text to speech, services, multiple fonts. Everything is about trade-offs and apple decided to go more for "confort and features" and less for "raw power" than microsoft.

4- A few post talked about power consumption and I think missed the real point. The thing is not about electricity price. Do you hesitate to change the 60W bulb for a 100W one when you don't see well enough in a room ? The point is about noise ( +power = + fans ) and more importantly : laptops. iBook claim to have 6 hours of battery life. Someone who has one tell me the real battery life they have. On PC, they don't claim more than 2hrs battery life and I don't know what they do during those 2 hours ( reading web pages ? ) but my programmer friend never got more than 1h30 on it ThinkPad and it's usually less than that.

5- If going to x86, why go AMD ( marketing ? ) because right now, Intel definetly has the advantage. http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/02q4/021114/p4_306ht-10.html

6- And last but not least, discussion came to 64bit over 32bit processor. One thing I want to make clear is that 64bit IS A DISADVANTAVE. It will be necessary one day to overcome the 4gig addressing space limit but it WILL BE A SLOWDOWN. 64bit means bigger memory requirement ( memory is cheap but also think that it also occupies more space in caches ie less element in cache so more cache miss ) slower throughput ( a 128bit bus can move 4 32bit chunks or 2 64bit chunks ) and 64bit integer treatment is mostly useless on consumer machines. Is there a programmer here that can tell me he uses 64bit integer intensively in a consumer application ? The today 32bit G4 uses 32bit address, 32bit instruction and 32bit integer registers and ALU ( arithmetic and logic unit ) but has 64bit floating-point unit and register and 128bit vector ( altivec ) unit and register.
 
How is Intel at an advantage? They have a 3.06ghz processor, yes, but it's a 32-bit P4. Big deal. We're talking 64-bit processors here.

And I would love to know how you could possibly deduce that 64-bit is a disadvantage over 32-bit?!?! :confused: Perhaps we should go back to 16-bit because 32-bit is a disadvantage? A processor in itself doesn't have memory requirements, so I have no idea how you are saying there is a bigger memory requirement. Next, how can you say that a 64-bit chip has slower throughput? Yes, a 128-bit bus can move 4 32-bit chunks or 2 64-bit chunks. I don't think they're going to leave the bus width the same while increasing that of the processor, it would be self-defeating...it wouldn't be any slower though, it would still be the same speed should bus width stay constant.
A programmer obviously wouldn't be coding for 64-bit when 32-bit is what's out! Think of the future here...with 64-bit processors now available, programmers will code for them. They obviously wouldn't have coded for a non-existant processor. Not to mention that AMD's 64-bit processor is 32-bit backward compatable.
Overall I find that last part of your post is entirely confusing and I can find very little sense in it. Perhaps you could explain this all in a bit more detail and clarity...
 
Do you hesitate to change the 60W bulb for a 100W one when you don't see well enough in a room ?

yes. i would add a second lamp to the room and use both when i need them rather than run the 100 all the time since it essentially doubles the cost. you may not do that, but i do. the only 100 watt bulb used in our house is stictly turned on and off on a need to use basis, it is never the constant light for the room.
 
Microsoft's success stems from their monopoly.

Didn't you read about their SEC filings? Aside from their OS and Office monopolies, MS is bleeding money everywhere...
 
Originally posted by threesixty
As a developer, I find there’s a fine line between optimising code for increased speed and completely wasting your time. Problems that you overcome by spending 6 months optimising something can be solved by the client just upgrading their computer. That 6 months could have been spent implementing new technology. The increased speed of computers in the last few years has directly contributed to the exploration of new technology. Software like multi track audio, graphics software etc.. would never have been developed if programmers didn’t think that consumers would have faster hardware in the future. I just saw a demo of a a new version of Quake which no commercially available computer can run yet. Its looks totally like nothing else I have ever seen, but the programmers have pushed the boat out in hope that we will catch up with them. That’s the ways software is nowadays. The only reason you optimize is if you have no choice (i.e. Playstion) because the machine cant be upgraded.

I'm late to this thread, but I just had to respond to this. You'd rather NOT optimise code and pray for faster hardware? That's the solution? Doesn't that seem a little cyclical to you? Develop sloppy software so I can develop new technologies that need newer hardware, so I can develop new technologies, that will need newer hardware, so I can develop new technologies (etc. ad nauseum).

You will surely say that this is the way that computer development works. But, it's not working, is it? How are your tech stocks doing?

Those 6 months optimising code are so that you don't release crappy software, software that has buggy new technologies (yes those ones you explored/discovered/added) that don't work as promised and that aren't essential. If you think that's not true, that they are essential, then what were you developing in the first place? Something that wasn't quite worthwhile until a new technology came along to make it complete?

It's bloat coupled with poorly written (ie. not optimised) software - what an attractive pair. And for what? Because these technologies would not otherwise be discovered/explored? Bah. If there's a need, a market, it will happen.

Is Apple's current hardware underpowered? Of course, not many would argue that. But it's sloppy, gimmick seeking software developers (Apple included) that make it ESSENTIAL for hardware development cycles to be so critical.
 
You're all crazy. I'm not going to get into the technological debate, because there is always someone with a counter point or something to discredit you. Back and forth. If you guys are so friggin' mad with your slow G4s, leave. Some of you guys are using 700 MHz G4s and comparing them to top of the line Athlons. I just got a new dual g4, and it's freaking fast. Fast than and top-of-the-line AMD/Intel processor I've used. Blah
 
but dude, I want to boot up in 30 seconds not 38 seconds!

yea, but where will it end? as soon as you get that, you'll want 29.5 sec boots. :p

just one quick question? is there anyone here who is arguing for x86 and the assumed speed increases who would actually use them for anything other than games? seriously, just wondering what the players in this discussion have in mind when they claim to need more. i don't think that a concern for apple's profits really counts. apple has managed thru worse times than this, something many competitors have not. There have been plenty of computer makers come and go who would have killed for apple's meager 3-5% market share. so what do you use your computer for that doubling the current speeds would really be noticable to you?
 
Originally posted by kommakazi
And I would love to know how you could possibly deduce that 64-bit is a disadvantage over 32-bit?!?! :confused: Perhaps we should go back to 16-bit because 32-bit is a disadvantage? A processor in itself doesn't have memory requirements, so I have no idea how you are saying there is a bigger memory requirement. Next, how can you say that a 64-bit chip has slower throughput? Yes, a 128-bit bus can move 4 32-bit chunks or 2 64-bit chunks. I don't think they're going to leave the bus width the same while increasing that of the processor, it would be self-defeating...it wouldn't be any slower though, it would still be the same speed should bus width stay constant.
A programmer obviously wouldn't be coding for 64-bit when 32-bit is what's out! Think of the future here...with 64-bit processors now available, programmers will code for them. They obviously wouldn't have coded for a non-existant processor. Not to mention that AMD's 64-bit processor is 32-bit backward compatable.
Overall I find that last part of your post is entirely confusing and I can find very little sense in it. Perhaps you could explain this all in a bit more detail and clarity...

If you want a reference to what I said, try looking at http://www.arstechnica.com . I think it's somewhere on this site that I've read the best article on the subject.

The computer industry moved from 4 to 8 to 16 to 32 bits computer because the applications ( as in usage, not program ) required it and technology was able to support it. The only advantage of a 32bit over a 16bit computer is that it can treat 32bit data as a whole instead of multiple steps on a 16bit. If all your data is 16bit, a 32bit computer will be a waste. A scientific program ( or like another poster said, heavy database server ) may be requiring 64bit data and would benefit from a 64bit ALU that can add 2 64bit numbers in one pass but for the consumer, there is no need for 64bit computation. And I'm talking here about integer computation because it's the only thing that's not at least 64bit on today cpu. That and address buses which like I said, would only be a benefit if you need more than 4 gigs of address space. Even microsoft will have a hard time inventing "features" to but in office to make it require that much memory.

Ok... there are operations that could be optimized to work faster on 64bit but would they cover the drawbacks that comes from 64bits ? I don't think so. Time will tell

Originally posted by MacLuV
I think that's not true. Read "The Microsoft Way" and you'll understand Microsoft's business strategy. Microsoft wouldn't stop making office if Apple controlled 50% of the market. Unlike Apple, Microsoft's success stems from intelligent business decisions, not personal feelings towards any particular product.

Microsoft doesn't mind macintosh as long as it's not a menace to it's own products. Windows is what brings microsoft the most money and the day OSX becomes a windows competitor, apple will have the #1 spot on microsoft red list. And if OSX is written for x86, it could and will be cracked to work on regular PCs
 
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