Apple or Windows? Which is better?

I've actually sound this mac to be more inintuative. Disk images? Have to unmount my usb drive? No right click? Spotlight that doesnt search by name? Plus, there's less software, less games, less upgradeability, and the fact that everything is proprietary and expensive.

And not to insult anybody, but I think alot of Mac users have an attitude problem. A need to prove their superiority or something. If I went to a windows forum and said I prefered Mac, I doubt I'd be attacked by an angry mob.
 
Scottfab said:
I've actually sound this mac to be more inintuative. Disk images? Have to unmount my usb drive? No right click? Spotlight that doesnt search by name? Plus, there's less software, less games, less upgradeability, and the fact that everything is proprietary and expensive.

And not to insult anybody, but I think alot of Mac users have an attitude problem. A need to prove their superiority or something. If I went to a windows forum and said I prefered Mac, I doubt I'd be attacked by an angry mob.

Seems as though you haven't actually DONE this. Give it a try and see what happens. Understand that you might not get the educated rebuttles you would get here, but it's to be expected.

As for the right click, if I only had a nickel for everytime a person that is relatively new to computers or is a computer novice got confused as to which button to use, I would be as rich as Billy Gates today. ::ha:: For new users, the two-button mouse can be confusing. I usually have to remind them to LEFT-click instead of assuming that they know, otherwise I get the "which button do I click on?" question. For new users, it's easier to understand the one button-ness of Apple's mouse. You really don't even need to right-click, since most of your menu options are on the universal menubar at the top. And for new users, this gives them a sense of familiarity where everything is. They don't have to think about the 1001 ways of performing the same options with extra mouse buttons. They can just go to the menu at the top and select the command they need.

As for the software selection, don't even THINK of counting all that junk software in the bargain bin as a selection, because there's a reason it's in that section....it's CRAP. If you've noticed, most of the software titles available on the Mac are titles that are well-done and well-reviewed (for the most part). Any of the big names you will find on the Mac and PC. Those that don't provide are easily replacable by other developers that DO support the Mac. And there are even titles that you won't find on Windows that are Mac only. So that point is quite moot. Don't base your decisions on wht Best Buy or Walmart has. They obviously cater to one platform, and it works for them. Most Mac users know where they can find their software, and it's within reach. As a matter of fact, when I helped my father purchase his G5, he received a catalog from MacMall and other resellers of Mac items, so he wasn't at a loss here. As for games, Apple is working on that, but remember that people who own a Mac aren't in it for the games. It's probably easier for them to just get a cheap PC for that, or a game console.

As for the expandability, it's there. And unless you build your own PC, you really don't have much of a need to upgrading anything, even if we're talking about branded PCs. My mother-in-law has a Dell PC at her house and she hasn't upgraded it at all. Everything is still the same exact way it came from the factory, and she's still very happy with it. Whether it's a Mac or a Dell, people looking for these systems don't want to fiddle with the inside. If that's what you want, then build yourself a nice Athlon 64 X2 system and be done with it. Get the parts yourself. But if you don't have the know-how, it's better that someone has taken the time to configure a system for you without you having to change anything after the purchase. Heck, you can even BTO so that it's all there. Most people looking to buy anything other than a Power Mac G5 aren't looking to get their hands dirty, they are looking to get their work done, and Apple has taken care of this.

Apple is considered to be proprietary because they control the software and the hardware. But that's a false statement. Look inside of their machines and you can use any type of component you would normally interchange on a PC on a Mac. RAM and storage are about the only thing that's probably upgraded the most, and that's the same on both systems. Apple machines had PCI, AGP, PCI-Express, whathave you. The "Not-Invented-Here" Syndrome of the 90s is definitely gone. Heck, even the core OS is open if you don't count Quartz or Aqua. You want to talk proprietary?? How come Microsoft hasn't made ANY of their operating systems interoperable with others?? Sounds like lock-in to a proprietary platform to me.

Yes, Apple machines tend to be expensive, but compare Apple's systems to what you get on the PC side. Most of the graphics chipsets integrated in the Macs are from companies that SPECIALIZE in video, like ATI and NVIDIA. What do you find in the Wintel world? Intel ExtremeGraphics??? PLEASE! Let them deal with CPUs and leave the VPUs to companies that know what they are doing. With Apple, you get high quality hardware AND software. And for the most part, everything just works, and that's what I hear from everyone who's owned a Mac.

And as for your USB issue?? Think that at least the Mac is letting you know that you can corrupt your data if you don't unmount it properly. Same thing in open-source UNIX/Linux if you think about it. Windows OTOH just allows you to do unplug it with no regard to the fact that you can corrupt your data. If you look carefully, in Windows XP you are warned that you need to STOP YOUR USB DEVICE before you disconnect it. So you're point here is also refuted.

The reason Mac users tend to get irked by most Windows users is this: Windows users are not all that informed. You'll find that most Mac users are very well-informed about BOTH platforms, and can even run circles around most Windows users about their OWN platform. If only Windows users didn't just regurgitate the same trash that's been spread around since the 1980s, Mac users would respect them a little more.
 
Scottfab said:
I've actually sound this mac to be more inintuative. Disk images? Have to unmount my usb drive? No right click? Spotlight that doesnt search by name? Plus, there's less software, less games, less upgradeability, and the fact that everything is proprietary and expensive.

Are you actually serious, or are you just trolling? You need to unmount your USB drive on Windows too. It's just called "Safely remove hardware" or something like that. If you haven't been doing that, don't complain if you suddenly find your data corrupted.

Right click is there. Though it is often unnecessary. If you do need to right click, either CTRL+click or buy a multibutton mouse. I've got a 7 button mouse and all the buttons work fine.

With regard to software, that's just plain ... naive. I use loads of programs on the Mac that were from Windows. MATLAB and Office are the first and foremost that come to mind. They cost the same as they would on Windows. *shrug*. Then, there's all those open sourced applications you can install via fink/darwin ports/gentoo/manual installation.

On the other hand, there is software that is available on OS X that is not available on Windows or Linux or anything else. I've already mentioned this, but I'll say it again. Bibdesk and TexShop. No alternatives on Windows. If there are, tell me! I need to tell my supervisor so he can get away from the command line. None work as well, and none are as cheap (free).

Xcode is free on OS X. Last I checked, VS.NET costs a fortune. Loads of development tools are free on OS X.

I agree with you if you're talking about games. There are less games on OS X, and they tend to cost more. But the upside is only good games get ported, since developers are only interested in porting games that will sell.

And not to insult anybody, but I think alot of Mac users have an attitude problem. A need to prove their superiority or something. If I went to a windows forum and said I prefered Mac, I doubt I'd be attacked by an angry mob.

Instead of merely speculating, why not go onto a Windows site and say you love macs? My experience is that there are zealots and idiots in every camp. Macs/Linux/Windows/Solaris/$FAV_OS all have their share of nut jobs. These forums are among the best on the web for decent signal to noise ratios. ;)
 
Viro said:
Are you actually serious, or are you just trolling? You need to unmount your USB drive on Windows too. It's just called "Safely remove hardware" or something like that. If you haven't been doing that, don't complain if you suddenly find your data corrupted.
There's one caveat though. In Windows we can disable "write caching." Supposedly write caching creates this "perceived performance" because it doesn't write to disk right away... it waits for a more opportune time to actually commit the data. Idiotic if you as me, but anyways, you can disable write caching on removable media, then all your external hard drives can "quick disconnect." No need to manual tell the computer to unmount it first.

It's analogous to flushing file buffers, from a programmers angle ;)


nixgeek said:
And as for your USB issue?? Think that at least the Mac is letting you know that you can corrupt your data if you don't unmount it properly. Same thing in open-source UNIX/Linux if you think about it. Windows OTOH just allows you to do unplug it with no regard to the fact that you can corrupt your data. If you look carefully, in Windows XP you are warned that you need to STOP YOUR USB DEVICE before you disconnect it. So you're point here is also refuted.
What's stopping anyone from unplugging an external drive in OSX. Any warning signs, any pop up messages? And regarding "loss of data", in Windows when you MOVE files from one disk to another, the OS actually makes a copy of the files from source to destination. Then it deletes the original source to complete the process of permenantly moving the files from point A to B. If you hit cancel anytime inbetween, the files on the destination get erased, the original source files are kept in tact.

I had one ugly incident a few years ago on my iMac where I was trying to move everything (10 GB of various docs and files) off my FW HD onto my iMac HD so I can reformat the external one into HFS+. Well half way through I said "meh, I change my mind I'll leave it as FAT32 because I'll still need to use the drive on my PC." So I hit cancel. Well that bad news is it bumped into an error because I tried to stop it. But it still thought I wanted those files off that external HD. So it went and deleted them. So then my files were neither in the destination nor the original source...
 
Windows is abosolutely horrible. Used 3.1 (what started this all) and 95 + all other versions of windows and they all SUCK :mad: . Stay with Mac :).
 
check out xvsxp.com the guy disects Panther and XP to the nitty gritty.

No Games is BS there are games for Mac you just have to look. Granted No Counterstrike or GTA but there are games that make up for that.

No Right click, go out and get a 2 button mouse they work with OS X, lol.
 
I prefer os x to windows but I still feel that the majority of problems with Windows are due to reticence from your average user. Not installing patches, downloading and installing anything with a .exe extension, opening every dodgy e-mails, not using adequate anti-virus software. Anybody who comes to me with the stories of woe from XP can usually be traced to e-mails and filesharing. My powerbook hinge broke a month or so ago so I'm in the market for a laptop. I really like those thinkpads...
 
I actually did build my own custom PC. It'd be nice if you could install OSX on something like that, rather than depending on their own PowerMacs.

I actually first noticed the "safely remove" thing when I had to play iPod transfer from my mac to my pc. But its still a bother that if I dont unmount my usb drive, it doesnt work right the next time I plug it in until I restart.
 
Scottfab said:
I actually did build my own custom PC. It'd be nice if you could install OSX on something like that, rather than depending on their own PowerMacs.

I actually first noticed the "safely remove" thing when I had to play iPod transfer from my mac to my pc. But its still a bother that if I dont unmount my usb drive, it doesnt work right the next time I plug it in until I restart.

So then you would be better served with a PowerMac system instead of the others. But even with a PowerMac tower, you would barely have the need to upgrade much since everything is already covered. And if there was a Mac OS X for x86, it would be similiary plagued with hardware compatibility issues as Windows is, defeating the purpose of the Macintosh. Besides, you can always download Darwin for x86 and you would have the UNIX available to you in Mac OS X, sans the eye candy.

I love building PCs, but there are times when a Mac would better serve me just to get the job done. This past weekend I had to use Windows Movie Maker on my Athlon system. I have everything configured properly (heck, I do this for a living). Yet Movie Maker kept crashing every 5 minutes, and didn't allow me to do exactly what I wanted, meaning I had to rely on workarounds that sort of did what I wanted. I wouldn't have had to worry about this on a Mac with iMovie. Heck, I'm even using an old Motorola StarMax with Mac OS 9 for my sequencing because the same program that is available for Windows sucks nuts. (I am speaking of an old program called Master Tracks Pro..works beautifully on the Mac, mediocre on Windows). That same Motorola Mac clone has PCI slots and I've got a USB card in there that's detected flawlessly under Linux, as well as a Voodoo3 2000 card that I flashed for use on my Mac.

the problem here is that one has to stop looking as the Mac from a Windows perspective. Otherwise, you'll be disappointed. Same goes for anything else. Open yourself up to the new experience and learn from it. You'll begin to enjoy it for what it is, not for what it's not compared to something else. I've used Mac OS 9, X, Linux, and Windows (all versions), and I have to say that I feel least comfortable with Windows. Not because I thought it should be like something else, but because compared to everything else on its own merit, it couldn't hold a candle.
 
Mac seems designed for graphics, movie, or music professionals. I'm just a casual end user. This is my college laptop. Web browsing, email, word processing, dvd watching, cd burning, chatting, the occasional game-playing, and if I ever get back into doing it, maybe even some photoshop tinkering. I dont seem like the user who needs a mac. It just seemd with my research that the powerbooks were the best notebooks on the market.
 
No offense, but I think you seem to be missing the point. You don't need a Mac for graphics, design or music production. That's beside the point. What you're using the Mac for at the moment, that's what it's designed for. It's not like you had to perform some great hack just to get it to browse the web, watch DVDs, etc. It did that pretty much out of the box.

This is where the Mac excels at, especially for the casual non-technical user. The computer experience becomes much more enjoyable. They no longer have to worry about spyware or viruses. Macs don't suddenly become slower over time because the proper maintenance tasks weren't run. All their files are usable on the Mac too which eases migration. Things just work out of the box and normally play well together.

But if you want to persist in claiming that the Mac is specifically designed for certain markets, you need to add scientific research and application development to that :).
 
All I know is, I've been using Macs since '84. We had one in school, early days, and I've been using them since. OS9 was great, but it had it's problems. Only been on OSX for about 6 months now, and IMHO Apple have really reached the top with a beautiful-to-use OS. I'd find it extremely difficult to go back to using OS9 let alone Windows.

I've just bought a G5 20" Imac for home, and have a Dual 2G G5 at work (and yes, okay, I'm a graphic designer for television). Both machines worked straight from the box, I had my Imac out and on my Broadband in about half an hour.
I just recently bought an Airport card for my G5 in work, there was a nice neat little slot in there for the card, it previously wasn't connected to t'internet. I installed it and was connected in about three quarters of an hour. We have a Dell PC and 2 laptops running off the Belkin wireless router, they took about a week to get sorted out on the wireless network.

My work colleague who I've known for 15 years and is an electronic engineer, the same guy who used to slag me off for using Macs, has just bought an Ipod AND a Mac Mini for home. He just had a baby, and wanted to send some DVDs to his family in America. He had the DVDs posted off about 3 days after he got his Mac, and he never shuts up about it now.

I plug my camera in and import all my photos into IPhoto and email to family and friends. I got all my familys old 8mm cine films transferred onto MiniDV, took it into IMovie, then authored it onto DVD with IDVD, as a xmas present for my parents. I listen to the wierdest radio stations on ITunes, and have every CD in the house on my harddisk, which is basically a big jukebox. I have loads of little shareware utilities like 'Name that Itune'. I easily update my software through Software Update. I play Call of Duty and World of Warcraft online. I have a Wireless Gamepad connected to the Imac. I was having problems with some Video Card drivers in work this week, because I installed OS10.3.9 (not Apple's fault, I hasten to add, fault of the third party manufacturers for not updating), so I spent a couple of hours reinstalling my factory disks, then updating back to 10.3.8 and it was so simple. Have you ever tried doing something like that on Windows? Neither have I and the thought makes me shiver!

I could go on... but the main reason I, and I'm speaking solely for myself but I know many will agree with me, use Apple is because it just FEELS right!

That is the end of my sermon! :eek:
 
I'm still unsure whether this discussion is healthy in any way. Should we simply close the thread? Or not? We all know that there are different opinions out there (and in here), we all know that there are points for and against each operating system - and at the end of the day everyone has to choose for themselves, really. I personally wouldn't want to live with all the security issues Windows has been having in the past decade, but if someone else wants to: Why not...

But to jump from one argument to another (games, graphics, OS, look & feel, etc.) doesn't bring this discussion anywhere, I believe. We'll hear more pro-statements and will hear more contra-statements, but is scottfab really willing to change his mind? And are YOU? I don't think so.

So the question, for me, still is: Is this thread in any way worth to stay open for discussion?
 
Close it. Anything that needs to be said has been said a hundred times over. On this thread, and on the gazillion other similar threads on the Internet.
 
I am glad to get home and kiss my Mac. The best thing I feel about the mac is its ease of use. Yeah windows has drag and drop however not to the extend mac does. You can not only drag and drop files into folders, you can drag and drop info from one application to another, surfing the web you can select text/pics/etc.. then drag it to the desktp or folder and viola its saves there. Copy and Paste are a thing of the past.

In Mac Os X the animations, user feedback and stability are fantastic. The only way (and trust me I have tried) to crash Mac Os X is to throw it our the window, literally.

What makes Macs or Apple better than windows is the quality apple puts into its designs and the functionality they place in thier products. Even thou there is no such thing as a bug proof software, the base on which Apple has built thier software and products doesn't lend them to problems as those whose systems are built or hashed upon age old technologies or methods.

Apple products my seem a bit more at first compared to discount PC manufacters, compared to the overall ownership expense of each machine.... Apple comes out ahead. no upgrades or equipment needed just software. I bought an iMac and the only things I bought for it were a Digital camera and DV Camcorder.

I love being able to sit here and think if it should be like this, then chances are it's done in that fashion. The windoze machine at work drives me nuts, I wish I could bring in my Mac and get things done a hell of a lot faster!

that just my opinion.
 
Kubbie, I dont want to sound negative towards your post but I dont think you've used windows in a while. Maybe 95/98 was the last?

Drag and drop works fine in windows. I just went into IE, opened up google, dragged the google logo on the desktop which saved it as an image. I opened word and dragged the google image directly from the browser into word or I could drag from the desktop into word. I opened up photoshop 6.0 and dragged the google logo directly from the browser into a new document. I tried dragging the image from word to photoshop and it works fine. So far I've been able to drag anything anywhere.

I can drag a picture into the photoshop shortcut on my desktop and it opens up with the image or with IE I can do the same. I can drag word docs directly to the application to open it. I can even do something that OSX cannot do out of the box. I can drag an item INTO another FTP site - its not read only :)

Also dual G5 is MUCH MUCH more than a bargain basement computer, not just a little. For example, I built and ordered a dual 3Ghz Xeon workstation with 2gig RAM, X800XT, SCSI drives (3 of them), U160 controller, Dual DVD 16x burners, Maudio soundcard for less than the base price of a dual g5 system with way less ram, much less video power, lesser sound, slower drives..less expandable tower case. The only thing I can say is that the G5 is pretty.

As for stability, I really cant comment as my old B&W G3 tends to run quirky with OSX so thats not fair to compare and the G4 and G5 boxes at work are more unstable than our PC's but I think thats because the designers who use them dont know what they are doing! We have Velocity video stations which are running dual xeons and they have been fairly stable but in fairness, not too much better than the G5's for stability (they run XP). I'd say both are even for stability in the right hands.

Is for speed, I'll put this dual 3Ghz Xeon against any dual 2.5 G5. Obviously each has its strong point but I think its easily on par for most apps and multimedia.
 
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