Chimera programmer feeling way down...

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"you people who don't use tabs... you are just blind to how much better tabs are."

You people who don't use macs... you are just blind to how much better OS X is.

"A new window is completely horrible compared to a tab. What if you have 20 windows open? The only way to find your window is through a window menu. But how many windows can be in there before you have to scroll through a list?"

A new windows version is completely horrible compared to a OS X. What if you have 20 applications open? The only way to find your app is through a taskbar menu. But how many buttons can be in there before you have to scroll through a list?

"With tabs, you just instantly click on a tab, and the already rendered page is in there. It's easier to use times a billion."

With OS X, you just instantly click on Dock, and the already loaded app is there. It's easier to use times a billion.

"With chimera, you could have 20 windows open in the windows menu, each with 15 tabs. That's 300 accessible windows while safari could not even come close."

With OS X, you could have 20 apps open in the Dock, each with 15 windows. That's 300 accesible windows while Windows could not even come close.

"If you only go to one web site at a time and never do anything more complicated i guess it's useless, but even following a series of links is better in tabs."

If you only use one app at a time and never do anything more complicated I guess it's useless, but even using a series of apps is better in OS X.

:D :D :D :D ;)

Now, what if Safari in ver.1.0 will have those tabs? Is really a matter of Chimera VS Safari or just Safari not having tabs in general? :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by solrac
you people who don't use tabs... you are just blind to how much better tabs are.

A new window is completely horrible compared to a tab. What if you have 20 windows open? The only way to find your window is through a window menu. But how many windows can be in there before you have to scroll through a list?
Click to expand...

Have your TRIED to open 20 tabs in Chimera?! Let's consider that an average resolution for a display is 1024x768. Now, let's subtract the dock from the display, so it's now 1024x750. Even if you max out the Chimera window, that's still about 1024x750 of screen space for the browser with the 20 tabs. Since the tabs go horizontally, that's 1024/20 = ~50 pixels for each tab. You are trying to tell me it's possible to decipher what is the title of each tab when you can only stuff the title of each webpage in 50 pixels? Okay, now let's consider the tab can be staggered. Each tab is about 25 pixels high. Now, because we want the tabs to be readable (the whole argument is tabs allow you to QUICKLY navigate between the open windows), let's say that each "level" of the tabs can support 5 tabs (1024/5 = ~200 pixels, should be enough for titles). That means, for 20 tabs, that's 4 levels. Each level being 25 pixels, 4 x 25 = 100 pixels, now subtracting another 150 pixels (at least) for the toolbar, URL, menu, that's 250 out of 750 of screen space. So at most we are left with 500 pixel of height for content. That's going to be a lot of scrolling to use tabs. And not to mention, it'll be confusing to be browsing with all those tabs.

So the truth is, tabs are only practical when their numbers are low. They allow you to quickly switch between pages, because you can read all the titles of the different pages quickly. Now, some sites have all the pages with the same title - so we need to keep the tabs at a minimum to allow us to remember which tab is which. Now, if tabs are best used when there are about 5 of them happening at once, how much more difficult is it to use command+~ to switch between windows or even using the window menu? The truth is, the more pages you are browsing at once, the less useful tabs are (you can no longer read the titles, or the take up way too much screen real estate), so the more likely you'll be using the windows menu.

Before you start saying that no one uses 1024x768 anymore, keep in mind this is the most popular resolution for the average people. It's the resolution of the the CRT iMac, the 15" iMac, and the iBook, and the 12" PowerBook.

Please don't shout at me about what I do and don't know about Mozilla. I've been using Mozilla since it was barely usable (late 1998) and I was one of the first person on this site to champion Chimera.

As I stated before, people have different taste, and stop trying to tell me that I am "blind" because I decided to use another program.
 
ive used a maximum of 6 or 7 tabs. and it was very practical.
but even at 20 tabs. even if the title is not very readable. the fact is that it is MUCH MORE PRACTICAL than openin 20 DIIFF windows.
of course id never open 20 tabs. but the fact is that tabs ARE A GREAT DISADVANTAGE. ur not OBLIGED to use them. when tabs first came out many ppl where happy.
thats what missin from safari. once they out .its over:)
personally i believe that tabs are more practical and better in every way in comparison to openin a new window. but on the other hand i use safari. and thats because i find that OVERALL safari is better than chimera:)
 
Originally posted by toast
One other thing is the page render: have you realized KHTML progressively renders pages (you can see it coming bit per bit) whereas Gecko first loads the whole thing and then displays it ?

I really prefer the latter one...
Click to expand...

I have to admit, I prefer the former. The truth is that Safari's "interlaced" or "progressive" nature is much closer to the expectations of World Wide Web's architects. HTTP is a stateless protocol. It fetches one piece of information at a time (this is changing with "pipelining", but you'll have to use a web server that support this newer form of HTTP), so what usually happens is that the webserver can server you the smallest component of the page first, this is usually the text (or the HTML page itself). If you have a page with text and picture, and if those pictures are huge, you would have to wait a long time for the pages to load EVEN IF all you want is the text, if the renderer would only display the full page when it's fully loaded. This is one reason why interlaced GIFs were so popular in the late 90's - because it progressively loads itself. Giving you a little bit of something at a time, so you won't get bored waiting.

I have a slow dial up connection, and I usually surf the web for its text/articles, so I want them before the pictures are loaded. That's what Safari does, it presents you with whatever it's got first, so I don't have to wait for the images before I start reading.
 
Well the fact is...
I don't care what some of you people say about tabs.

Tabs are better period. That's not opinion, that's fact. (Just like saying the michelangelo is a beautiful statue is a fact, not opinion. True, definition-wise its an opinion, but if 5.9 out of 6 billion humans agree on it, it's really a fact.)

Tabs are better. Period.

Oh and you can only open 15 tabs in one window.

And it doesn't matter that you can't read the titles if the tabs get too small. If I'm on Macosx.com, and i click on 15 threads I want to read, they are all in tabs for me, inside one window. I don't care what the titles are, you just simply read a page, close the tab, and the next one is there for you instantly. You can have ebay in a different window if you'd like. You can have 4 ebay tabs open in a second window, 12 macosx.com tabs in a first window, and 8 tabs of google search results and following pages in a third window. How can 24 separate mixed up windows be better than that????

And you can bookmark all open tabs into one bookmark. So I can go to macosx.com, thinksecret.com, apple.com, and macrumors.com, into 4 different tabs in one window, and bookmark it. Then with one click, they will all open up and I get all my mac news in 4 separate tabs with one click, whenever I start chimera.

Safari might be faster by a millisecond, but that's like saying windows xp is faster than mac os x (snappier). Who cares. Mac os x is better, and more productive.

And hulkaros is right... tabs in chimera are like the dock in OS X, compared to no tabs in safari is like the taskbar in windows.

No tabs is horrible.
Tabs rule.

End of story.
 
Phatsharpie wrote:
I have a slow dial up connection, and I usually surf the web for its text/articles, so I want them before the pictures are loaded. That's what Safari does, it presents you with whatever it's got first, so I don't have to wait for the images before I start reading.
Click to expand...

Ever tried Links (text only browser) from the Terminal? :)

Solrac wrote:
if 5.9 out of 6 billion humans agree on it, it's really a fact.)
Click to expand...

From a philosophical point of view I have to disagree with you. In ancient Greece everybody thought the world was flat. After Columbus and Copernicus everybody (apart some fundamentalistic Christians) thought it was round. Imagine what an upheaval and earthquakes when suddenly (when 51% changed opinion) the world inflated!!! :D :D :D

Facts are those things that don't go away when you stop beliving them.

From a practical point of view if have to agree with you! It is great to bookmark all pages of a certain kind (News, Mac fora, etc.) and have them open in a single window. That is very very usefull IMHO and it is one of the reasons I don't use Safari (besides being stuck in 10.1.5 :( )
 
Originally posted by solrac
True, definition-wise its an opinion, but if 5.9 out of 6 billion humans agree on it, it's really a fact.)
Click to expand...

Really? Hitler was elected to power in Germany by a majority, so are you telling me that he indeed the best leader the Germans could have hoped for? Majority of Germans at the time were also supportive of the Nazis, so the politics of the Nazis must be the best too!

If your argument is true, since 97% of computers sold are Windows machines, then THAT must be the best choice for an OS then!

And hulkaros is right... tabs in chimera are like the dock in OS X, compared to no tabs in safari is like the taskbar in windows.
Click to expand...

I think you actually got that in reverse. The Windows task bar give you a "tab" for each window (webpage) that is open. So it's exactly like the tabs in Mozilla/Chimera. While the dock is application specific. In fact, you can simulate Mozilla quite nicely with IE if you open all the webpage windows in maximum size and just use the task bar to switch between them.

What you have said about the tabs is an opinion. PERIOD. Majority isn't always correct. We found that the Earth really isn't flat. The Earth really isn't in the center of the universe. Etc., etc., etc..

The only truth is that PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT TASTES. Please stop being a zealot and just accept that.
 
Originally posted by Cat
Ever tried Links (text only browser) from the Terminal? :)
Click to expand...

I actually love Lynx. If most pages' navigation isn't images, I'd use it more often! Try navigating Apple.com with it! Ewwwww! :D
 
Originally posted by phatsharpie
I think you actually got that in reverse. The Windows task bar give you a "tab" for each window (webpage) that is open. So it's exactly like the tabs in Mozilla/Chimera. While the dock is application specific. In fact, you can simulate Mozilla quite nicely with IE if you open all the webpage windows in maximum size and just use the task bar to switch between them.
Click to expand...

The Windows thing is correct in pre-XP versions... In XP you have the option to group similar apps/windows together in one button (tab if you prefer) and you know why?

Because it was impractical (other than having the computer to crash :D ) to have 4 word docs open, 3 excel books, 5 web pages, wmp, 3 photoshop images, 2 coreldraw, etc. ALL AT THE SAME TIME... That's why they included the previous mentioned option which is the Dock's default treatment for windows/apps!

As for having multiple IE windows at maximum size: That beats the need for having windows in the first place! Why have windows in the first place when one app takes the whole screen away? I want to view at the same time web pages, the wmp playing music and anything THAT I need/desire/want to have open at the same time! This cannot occur without IE having tabs! So, you see IE at max windows size with combination of the taskbar is not the same as having tabs in a browser :mad:

And that is before even thinking that one can have enabled the option of auto-hiding the taskbar (even on your max IE windows scenario such a user CANNOT have tabs) ;)

Anyways, because this turned big, if one likes/dislikes tabs that's fine! But what I believe is that TABS should be in Safari preferences as an option as they are in Mozilla/Chimera/et al anyways... So the user will be able to chose IF he wants/needs/cares for them or not...

I, for one, want the Tabs as an option in Safari ASAP! :mad:
 
simple reason i don't like tabs - eats up screen real estate. i want as much page and as little browser as possible. end of story. point. my perspective. endo f my debate tactics. there is no 'fact' here other than 'your truth' and 'my truth'. there certainly is nothing that says we need to agree. i want the biggest display of web content and you want a half dozen pages at instant access. i only want 4-5 and so keep a seperate window for each.

for instance. i don't want an already rendered thread in a tab. because i want to see the latest refreshed version of that thread before i read it anyway. and if i'm going to have to relaod it anyway, what's the point?

know what's really sad? that this threaad started out as a notice of someone's mental health and turned into another silly browser debate. very few people here have even discussed this poor guy's feelings. they just care about whether or not their lousy browser is best or not. such lack of empathy is really upsetting. someone sent him the url of this thread - for what purpose - so he can see how little people care about him and are only concerned with having all the browser features they want? he's right, people don't appreciate him. they only want what he can give them. and it's likely he won't be able to give them enough before long. :rolleyes:
 
Your agument about tabs makes little sense to me. First off, they eat up no real estate unless you mean the quarter of an inch they create so you can switch between them. Considering they're self contained within the browser window, you gain a lot more screen real estate since you don't have five browsers opened up cluttering your desktop or your Dock.

As for "already rendered thread" in a tab, I don't understand what you mean.

I think the main reason some Mac people, especially former OS 9 people hate tabs is because self contained windows within an application is very Microsoft Windowsesque, where as Mac OS likes to have windows all over the place like with Photoshop or Office.
 
Ignoring solrac's destruction of hundreds of years of philosophical theory and logical construction ( ;) ), I will say this-
Tabs look cool and sound cool, but I find them clumsy at best to use. I am used to switching windows through the menu that comes from right-clicking the dock menu, but then I have a 2-button mouse. Maybe tabs works better with a 1-button mouse, but cannot go back to that. Anyway, I usually have no more than 5 browser windows open and you know what? they are often in deifferent browsers. I use Safari because the interface is more minimalist, but some sites don't work right in it. I use OmniWeb if I am going to a site with tons of ads, as it has the best ad blocking. I use Chimera when I need the fastest browser, but like Safari it does not work on some sites (.Mac webmail, for me at least). And because it is the only one that works with my bank's website, sometimes I have to use IE (here's hoping Safari takes care of that). I won't bother with Mozilla because I use Chimera, and I won't use Netscape because I use Chimera and Address Book and Mail. I am not a web developer, but I use several browsers, often at the same time! Of course, I never knew about being able to bookmark a group of tabs, and if that seems like a good possibility I may use Chimera more until (of if) Safari gets the same. Anyways, that's my take on the whole matter. Well, that and the fact that no one browser is going to be perfect for everyone, and I am glad I use a Mac where my choices aren't based on whether M$ will let the other choices work right.
 
guys. noone is FORCING you to USE tabs.
its just that SOME ppl would like tabs in the next safari update more than anythin else.!

its UR choice if u use tabs. if u dont. thats ur choice. pretend they dont even exist. but arguin bout it doesnt help.
soon. safari will have tabs. and all of this will have been a wasted time. :) ed is right. lets think bout that poor guys emotions.
maybe we can email him and tell him how we feel. its not entirely HIS fault that he(chimera) got crushed by the Invincible/Incredible Hulk(apple-->safari) :) he he he
 
Kendall: Ed was talking about screen real estate *inside* the window. I'm the same. I tend to get rid of all the buttons and GUI elements in browsers, because I'm much faster with (good) keyboard shortcuts. The fact that I'm mostly on broadband connections eliminates the need for tabs. The most I'll ever need is a second window, and having to sacrifice the window real estate for two tabs is too high a price. I _hope_ that Apple will implement tabs in a better way than Chimera does, but it's not that important to me.

Someone said that you should try and open 20 tabs in Chimera. I've tried Chimera several times in the past few months, and whenever I tried to actually _use_ tabs (i.e. more than 10 tabs), Chimera crashed. Not sometimes: Always. Sure, you can set it to not load pages in other tabs, but then the feature is useless.
 
Ok first of all...

The argument that the world was flat was at that time a scientific fact. This was not opinion.

I'm talking about opinions that are so widely held, that they become fact. The fact that the michelangelo is a beautiful statue will never change, because it is inherently an opinion, as good as a fact.

But the notion that the earth was flat was simply a fact, nothing more. Facts can change. Opinions that are so widely held that they are fact will never change, because it is something humanity shares as a passion.

Perhaps a few thousand people on this earth think the michelangelo is ugly and crappy for artwork, but it makes no difference.

The same way, if you do not like tabs, you are simply a pariah, an outcast, an nth percentage of billions of others who would actually like tabs, so your opinion is moot and null.

And don't bring Hitler into this. If you go by facts alone, then yes: Hitler was a genius, one of the best speakers of all time. Hitler was, simply put, a great leader. He convinced leagues of Germans to blindly follow his way. He was brilliant. Too bad he was also megalomaniacal and evil, but that doesn't change the fact that his IQ was probably close to Einstein's.

And just because 97% of the world uses windows doesn't mean windows is more liked. Just because one uses something doesn't mean it's their favorite. Otherwise everyone would be driving ferraris. People use windows because its cheaper and has more games.

Mac OS X is better than windows. Period.
Hitler was genius and a great leader. Period.
Tabs rule your momma. Period.

(and of course I'd like to see windows go the way of hitler.... GONE)
 
Originally posted by edX
know what's really sad? that this threaad started out as a notice of someone's mental health and turned into another silly browser debate. very few people here have even discussed this poor guy's feelings. they just care about whether or not their lousy browser is best or not. such lack of empathy is really upsetting. someone sent him the url of this thread - for what purpose - so he can see how little people care about him and are only concerned with having all the browser features they want? he's right, people don't appreciate him. they only want what he can give them. and it's likely he won't be able to give them enough before long. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAH
That was the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Who really cares about this Pinkerton fellow anyway? We are all just parasites who take what we can get, when we can get it. Fools such as Pinkerton are merely here to supply the blood for our suckers.

There's something so... 1984... about all this hahaha.
 
oh and btw, chimera has never crashed for me with tons of tabs only. It crashes for me with many tabs open or not, equally as much.

HAHAH, sounds funny. But still, a crash is actually very rare for me in chimera.
 
it's all fun'n'games dude.... most people should be able to see when I'm serious and when I'm not very serious and just making myself laugh (and hopefully a few others laugh too)

I think the parasites bit was pretty good :D
 
my primary is still chimera:) safari is a distant 2nd. i'd hate to see chimera go but it is true that things seem to have slowed down. it makes me sad:(

shemina
 
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