Get the Shots

pds

Registered
Apparently, that would be San Francisco.
;)
As to “Chinese Virus” aren’t most flu and flu-type viruses from China? Hong Kong flu, bird flu, Asian flu, SARS. H1N1

The vac's are a feel good stick in the arm, and a cash cow for the vax makers.
while that’s not untrue, that feel good stick does tamp down the hypertransmissability that threatened to overwhelm the sick care system, piling up body bags in refrigerated trucks on the streets of NY. Look at infection rates where people have taken the shot, vaccination plus prudent masking clearly works.

Glad the thing just brushed through you, I got it n March 2020 and was a little sick but aggressive in-home care remedies - isolation, steam baths with eucalyptus rub and chicken soup- and was better before I knew I had it. My wife was sick for a day and couldn’t taste or smell for 3 months.

i have an “essential” job (who knew) and have not been quarantined for more than the three days I isolated. I took the shots of my own accord to be able to travel to see the kids. It looked like there was going to be a requirement for flying, so…

it’s true, someone is making money but, someone is always making money.
 

bbloke

Registered
I do know I have strong feelings on these matters, so I try to walk a tightrope. Some of this is raw because a lot of people I know have been directly affected, plus I follow the scientific data (not politicians or social media) and it is quite clear what the facts are. Even in my small circle: someone we work with died during the first wave, I've lost two family members during the pandemic, someone else I work with lost two family members too, and another has a partner who worked in the health service before the vaccine and is now unable to live unassisted, let alone continue working. Others I know who work in the health sector have lost colleagues (before vaccination) and have been clearly traumatised by what they have witnessed amongst patients. I can go on through a long list and so for me it is very real and uncomfortably close to home. This is very definitely not like a cold or flu, it is very different.

The subject of freedom comes up a lot. It's not simple, however. I won't go into bigger philosophical and political debate about freedom and its boundaries here. A short version is that it is not about the individual vs. Big Government or the like, it is where we all draw the line between "my freedoms" and "the freedoms of the person next to me." For every member of the public who says "I have the right to socialise and go shopping" there is another member of the public who says "I have the right to protection of my health/my family's health" (e.g. clinically vulnerable themselves, caring for relatives, job-related, or whatever). It could be argued a citizen's right to life (and/or good health) is the highest right.

To me, getting vaccinated is a big part of social responsibility and caring for the person next to you (see earlier simulation about how this works with other diseases too), and it will ultimately be our way out of this mess. But only if enough people get the vaccine. For the current pandemic, I think it is part of a package of getting vaccinated, wearing masks, social distancing, and limiting unnecessary exposure to others.
 

bbloke

Registered
I DO agree with his basic premise, however. I have not been vaxed, and will not. Do I care about people around me---hell yes. I mask up wherever I go, but I go wherever I please.
I have mixed feelings here, as you can imagine from the above. You seem to have been lucky, but please be really careful and remember others might not have the same experience as you if they come into contact with the virus. You can see from my post above that I know examples of people who have really suffered (all younger than you, and some less than half your age!). Plus we can get a good picture by looking at the wider statistics. It's still somewhat of a lottery and we're still learning about why some people shrug it off and some young, very fit, and healthy people get struck down.

I am 75, a 2 times cancer survivor that has low immunity to everything, and am healthy as can be.
You've certainly had a very difficult time and I'm very sorry to hear that. Having lost a partner to cancer when she was relatively young and having lost older family members to cancer too, I've seen how tough it is on the individual, both mentally and physically, and on those around them. I am, however, very glad you seem to be fine these days and I hope that continues, despite your reduced immune system. Please take care of yourself.


I did test, as did my wife, and we are both positive for the Chinese virus's antibodies; therefore, sometime in the last almost 2 years, we have both gotten it. Neither of us have ever felt bad, nor are we aware we ever had it.
That's interesting. You may have had a weaker strain of the virus some time ago and been one of the lucky "asymptomatic" carriers, which may be protecting you to some degree now. The strains around now, such as the Delta strain, seem to overwhelm immune systems more effectively and contribute to much higher viral loads. The Delta variant (which emerged in India) also seems able to infect people who have previous had the virus or have been vaccinated, although those people may find their immune systems are much better primed. The Alpha variant (which emerged in the UK) was about 1.5x more transmissible than the original, and then the Delta variant is about 1.5x more transmissible than the dreaded Alpha variant! So it's not a surprise we're seeing the greater spread as the virus evolves, and it probably explains the awful scenes we saw in India, with families buying oxygen because hospitals ran out, cremations not being able to keep pace, and so on. As I touched upon above, some people can be asymptomatic, some people have mild symptoms, while others may be hospitalised or even worse. We don't fully understand the reasons why at this point, although I'm sure there will be various environmental and genetic factors (e.g. "how bad a dose" you got when exposed, your underlying health, etc.).

On a side note, let's please steer away from this "Chinese virus" stuff, which is the realm of dubious political statements. It is not anything a credible scientist would say, and it is a subtle way of planting the seed to villainize another race or nation... Which can be quite sinister, as we know from history. Remember a lot of strains have developed elsewhere around the world now: the Alpha variant appeared within the UK and hit the US, Beta first observed in South Africa, Gamma first observed in Brazil, Delta first observed in India and now sweeping the world, Mu first observed in Colombia, and many more that simply don't make the news, to be honest. Also, there's evidence now that the Spanish Flu after World War I was actually from the US, so sometimes the national naming of the time turns out to be misleading anyway... Along these lines, perhaps we should call all Americans "Africans" because, regardless of millions of years of other heritage along the way, we'll choose to focus upon a current understanding that mankind's earliest origins were around the Great Rift Valley region of Africa. :D

The vac's are a feel good stick in the arm, and a cash cow for the vax makers.
Hmmm. If by "a feel good stick in the arm" you're alleging that vaccines are placebos that have no real effect, I'm sorry but I don't know where you are getting this from at all. For the benefit of anyone else reading this thread, I need to be clear that the many scientific studies around the world would say this is simply flat out wrong.

Remember, annual flu vaccines offer something like 40-60% effectiveness, off the top of my head, but people are happy to take those and yet question the coronavirus vaccines, which offer significantly higher effectiveness. We're very fortunate with effectiveness of the current vaccines, and yet there can be a lot of inconsistency with regards to attitudes and uptake, it's weird. But, it is true that no vaccine is perfect. Ideally, they prevent infection too, but that is optimistic and the main job is really to prevent people getting very sick if they do get infected.

If you're saying pharmaceutical companies will make money out of this, I agree with you: they will, as they do from any treatment, I'm afraid. Remember your previous cancer treatments will have been some of the very most expensive treatments around, and companies will have made a lot of money out of this (and it makes me uneasy that any company should profit from someone's misfortune). But that does not mean that you having those treatments was not absolutely the right thing for you to do, despite any profit someone might make along the way.

It is worth pointing out here, though, that AstraZeneca has agreed to sell the vaccines at effectively cost price, instead of making huge profits. That is why the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are about 10x the cost of the AstraZeneca vaccine. It's also part of why we should be on guard against "vaccine nationalism" and spats between "interested parties" when they are advocating one vaccine over another. And, no, I don't work for AstraZeneca or for Oxford. ;)
 
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bbloke

Registered
As to “Chinese Virus” aren’t most flu and flu-type viruses from China? Hong Kong flu, bird flu, Asian flu, SARS. H1N1
I agree that SARS and Bird Flu were first observed in China, if I remember rightly. China's also home to a staggering ~18% of the world's population (i.e. nearly 1 in 5 of us), so it might not be a big surprise when things are first observed there. To be fair, though, "Hong Kong Flu" and "Asian Flu" (from the 1950s and 1960s) originated in Hong Kong when not yet part of China, although part of it again now. ;)

If you refer to H1N1, though, I believe that is associated with "Spanish Flu" (which killed up to 50 million around the world, and was one of the worst pandemics we've faced) and also "Swine Flu" (2009), both of which had origins in North America and swept the world.


Glad the thing just brushed through you, I got it n March 2020 and was a little sick but aggressive in-home care remedies - isolation, steam baths with eucalyptus rub and chicken soup- and was better before I knew I had it. My wife was sick for a day and couldn’t taste or smell for 3 months.
Ouch... It's good to hear you both recovered quickly. Sounds like you had it very early on and were trend-setters! I've known a few people lose the sense of smell, but it seems to come back with time, fortunately. It later became a symptom to look out for, setting it apart from other illnesses when trying to work out if some initial symptoms were those of a cold, flu, or hay fever.

I'd also heard of situations where people with the coronavirus seemed to to be improving but then, when they thought they were about through it, suddenly took a turn for the worse around day 8 or so (it's the way one work colleague died). I don't know the details of why things sometimes panned out that way, very likely to do with the progress of the disease and where it ends up by that point in time. Some people found use of a pulse oximeter to measure blood oxygen levels can give you an early warning if things are going downhill and you might not yet know it.

Anyway, I'm just thankful you both got through it OK and the more drawn out effects have subsided!


i have an “essential” job (who knew) and have not been quarantined for more than the three days I isolated. I took the shots of my own accord to be able to travel to see the kids. It looked like there was going to be a requirement for flying, so…
Very good to hear! Thank you. :)


it’s true, someone is making money but, someone is always making money.
Sadly true... I understand pharmaceutical companies running like any other business and making profits, but, even so, something does not sit well about any aspect of health care being run for profit. :confused:
 

pds

Registered
While reading bbloke I was strongly reminded of Asimov’s treatise on freedom and responsibility “I Robot”. Not that travesty of a movie, the book is a delightful look at the ethical and moral underpinnings of civilzation. It was the three basic laws that allowed for the robot to develop and maintain basic freedom and functionality. I have always seen it as a metaphor for human development.

A good person:
1 does no harm
2 cooperates unless doing so cause harm (disobeys evil orders)
3 seeks prosperity unless it harms others or breaks rule 2.

How then do we allow for the disruption necessary for us to meet the challenges of modern complexity? Asimovs suggestion is a 0th law recognizing that sometimes you have to choose “the greater good”. The 0th law inserts humanity above human, but for one already determined to be a good person.

Read the book, it’s a short one but very engaging. You can read it while voluntarily waiting to follow the OP’s suggestion to “get the stick”
 

bbloke

Registered
@pds Interesting comparison. I think I began reading the book when I was very young, but it was too old for me and I didn't get that far. Perhaps I should revisit it when I get some time. It sounds as though it was also commenting on human morality, in parallel.

One thing for me is how we think about the individual and how we think of the wider community. It can be tempting to picture the brave individual standing up to authoritarian powers, such as a government dictatorship. Or we can think of the Apple ad from 1984, and we think of people in gray shuffling about unquestioningly like zombies, while a brave, colourful individual takes a stand. Those extremes make for good films, but real life is more nuanced than that.

In reality, doing something to help the community doesn't necessarily equate to mindlessly following a shuffling herd. It can mean choosing a course of action that prioritizes your vulnerable or elderly neighbor, rather than your own needs or convenience.
 
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