Is the Israeli repsonse to Hezbollah excessive?

[Rhisiart]

As someone who supports the state of Israel, I am horrified at the use of extreme force to rescue their captured soldiers. Wouldn't negogiations been a better first step, using military action if this failed?

(See also this post).

 

[bbloke]

The current situation has roots going back hundreds of years and I don't think there is one clear cut aggressor or victim.

While it is not too difficult to understand why the Israelis feel threatened and tend to overreact, as they feel their very existence is under threat, it is very hard to support their actions, when one hears of the details... There is a lot that we don't tend to hear on the news, we just tend to hear about one side mounting an "attack" and the other side mounting a "response." We hear a lot less about living conditions and about daily oppression.

In answer to your question, I'd say that, yes, the Israeli response has been excessive. They are not just penalizing those who might have been involved in the action against Israeli forces, but now killing and oppressing civilians on a much larger scale.

Where will this lead? To more resentment, and more people wanting to fight against Israel, no doubt. As "moderates" become "radicalized" (to put things simplistically) when events hurt them directly too, then we have more violence. And then Israel will respond to that too. And so on. Violence will beget more violence.

War, assasinations, oppression, and torture do not solve underlying problems, they merely keep the lid on things temporarily while the political situation reaches boiling point underneath...

There was quite a good article on an Australian web site, here.

 

[ora]

Yes, it is. I have to say i don't support the _current political state of israel_ in any way, though i do support the existence of an Israeli state.

Not only is the response excessive, but the rhetoric all reeks of hypocrisy. It drives me nuts the way Israeli spokesman quote UN resolutions against theirt enemies while ignoring the many directed agaisnt them and their various illegal occupations. Return to pre '67 lines or something close is the only basis for peace i can see, plus stopping strangling Gaza (they've withdrawn but essentially can still cut off the whole province at will).

None of this is to say i support the terror tactics of Hezbollah or the military arm of Hamas, they are as repugnant as the Israeli right wing and IDF.

Lets all hope this stops soon.

 

[JimmyP1]

I disagree with the above posters so far. Israel continually has it's existence threatened especially by a subhuman group of people left in Palestine. All the smart Palestinians have left with their money and are waiting until conflicts settle down. Israel left a lot of good starting businesses in Gaza when they pulled out months ago, for these Palestinians to work with and what did they do: tore them apart to sell the pieces instead of trying to keep whole businesses together so all could have some jobs, some money. I think the Israelites know these people well enough to know what they will understand, to get them to stop attacking the Land Of Israel.

 

[Rhisiart]

Israel continually has its existence threatened especially by a subhuman group of people left in Palestine.

Feck me! Sub-human?!!!! That's a seriously nasty term to use.

There are plenty of uneducated and poor people in my neck of the woods and they are not all destructive. Some are, some aren't. You're generalising.

Israel falls into the same trap as the West, i.e. that old Cold War thing where territory is everything (borders, security etc.). It isn't anymore. You can't live in a cocoon.

You have to negotiate and make compromises.

This Old Testament obsession with an eye for an eye just won't do anymore.

And as for Hezbollah, wouldn't it better to follow the teachings of the Koran?

 

[ora]

Jesus, that was a extreme. I hold strong views of the situation but not like that. I just get angry as i visited parts of the area when i was younger and met so many people on both sides who were bone tired of conflict and just wanted to live. Extreme groups on _both_ sides are ruining chances of this happening.

 

[Mobius Rex]

Israel continually has it's existence threatened especially by a subhuman group of people left in Palestine

Excuse me, but your racism is showing, JimmyP1!
Israel is engaged in a process of ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories. Israel regards the Palestinian people(that's right, they're people, human beings just like you and me, JimmyP1) as subhuman trash, just as you do. Israel is guilty of systematic atrocities against the Palestinian people, men, women and children, atrocities which are designed to break the back of their will to resist occupation, and to make life so intolerable for them that they all will leave Palestine. Israel wants their land, all of it, for "Greater Israel".

 

[reed]

What is the ratio between Israeli soldiers kidnapped and civilians killed both in Gaza and Lebenan so far? Just curious.

 

[adambyte]

On a smaller scale... hell yes, that's excessive. "Kidnap a few people" does not equal "bombing civilians." That's the easy part of this equation.

On a big scale... Everything violent about the middle east is exccessive. I have NO IDEA how to prevent the Judeo Christian and Islamic people from butting heads. I don't know what kept the region "mostly stable" for the majority of the '90s, but hot damn, I miss that.

Bear in mind, I'm only 23. I probably don't have my history straight.

 

[bbloke]

Whoa, I have to agree with the other posters, JimmyP1! Your post was incredibly ignorant and basically racist!

You cannot lump all Palestinians together, and to say only the dumb ones remain is outrageous. For a start, not everyone will have the living standards you enjoy, and not everyone is able to move even when they want to. Perhaps you should "see how the other half lives," before condemning them...

In case you didn't know, "Israeli" groups (for want of a better term) waged a terrorist battle before the creation of Israel, trying to establish the creation of Israel. You cannot say this is one way, both sides have committed atrocities over the years. It is not a binary issue. To see the Israelis as Good Guys and Palestinians as Bad Guys is, well, ridiculous.

Israel gets massive military support from the US, while the neighbors do not. Israel created nuclear weapons, probably with Western support, while the West would not want Israel's neighbors to obtain nuclear weapons. If Palestinians attack Israeli towns, we condemn it, but when Israelis carry out punishment of towns for the actions of a minority, we turn a blind eye. The hypocrisy of the West is appalling.

You might also need to look into why Palestinians, and others, feel so frustrated. Have a look at some facts. To quote the source (as of 2002):

1. In 2002, Israel occupied 78% of Palestine (as established after the creation of Israel, that is).
   
2. Average annual income in Israel and Palestine: Israel: $17,000, Palestine: $1,700.
   
3. Some 26% of West Bank Palestinian households have no connection to piped water. Israeli settlers pay an average of three times less for domestic consumption than Palestinians.
   
4. The current unemployment rate in Israel is 10.2% – the highest in 10 years. In Palestine the unemployment rate is 60%.
   
5. The Israeli military interventions in spring 2002 are estimated to have cost $350 million in damage to Palestinian infrastructure (schools, roads, waterworks, power supply, government buildings). In an entire year Palestinian public investment amounts to $200 million.

That is, the Palestinians have far worse living standards, even children are killed by Israeli snipers, civilians are held up at checkpoints for hours on end, even ambulances have been shot at, the Palestinians land is not protected by the West although the West is terribly protective of Israel's existence, the Palestinians feel they have no one listening to them and no peaceful means of turning things around, the Israelis used to widely use torture and barbaric means of killing people suspected of being terrorists (eg. breaking every bone in their body and leaving them in no-man's land to die), they destroy family homes when one member might be implicated in violence, and the Palestinians ultimately feel they have nothing left to lose. This is why they opt for violence, not because, as you so disgustingly put it, they are somehow "subhuman."

 

[reed]

bbloke,
You have done your homework. Well said. One thing I find so scary about this situation is the fact Israel rose to the bait. Extremists love that. They live by it. They love to die for it. As radical colonists in the Occuppied Territories would do?
Now what? Will everybody get into the act:Iran, Syria, and so forth? Lebanon was fragile as it was, now, it will go to crumbs and who will move into a vacuum if this continues? GWB has his butt between two chairs....on one side he supports Israel come hell or highwater but at the same time he (EC included) wants Lebanon to become a "stable" part of the Middle East. Goodbye Charlie now. Between the Gaza Strip and the Second Front all this can be cast to the wind. And for what? A few soldiers?
Of course, the Gaza invasion was already prepared despite the so called "saving Private Ryan". The Hezbolla thought it best to get into the act to really get the dander up. Who will come out the "winners?" Nobody, of course.
To be continued....

 

[Rhisiart]

I suspect the solution to this problem lies with Putin's advisors/negotiators (or even Chirac).

Heaven forbid that Blair and Bush get involved.

 

[g/re/p]

What really gets me is this - the part of the world referred to as the "holy land" is most probaly going to be where armageddon starts.

I used to think it would not happen in my lifetime, now i am not so sure about that.

Blatant ignorance, doltish stupidity, and unfounded hate - all in the same of religion!!! - never ceases to amaze me.

 

[g/re/p]

Red and Yellow____Black and White

We'll be torches_____in the night...

 

[bbloke]

Thanks, reed.

Sorry in advance for this long post! I thought I'd try to find some more information, for those who are interested.

I am not vouching for the different sources and there will inevitably be some discrepancies, which may simply be due to how up-to-date the sources/pages are, but I thought it makes interesting reading...

Some useful links:

Background by Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

A site aimed at Americans, regarding Israel and Palestine:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Factsheet about Palestine and Israel:
http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/factsheet.pdf

Comprehensive compilation of information:
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/infos_materials/facts_sheets.htm

Amnesty International pages about Israel and the Occupied Territories:
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/IOT_home
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-index-eng
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150742002
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/israel_and_occupied_territories/reports.do

Secret Israeli prison facility:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1084796,00.html

Human Rights Watch pages on Israel and the Occupied Territories:
http://www.hrw.org/un/chr59/israelot.htm

http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/factsheet.pdf

US provides $3.0 billion in aid annually to Israel; $1.8 billion in military aid and $1.2 billion on economic aid

Israel constitutes 0.1% of the world's population and yet receives 30% of the total US foreign aid budget

http:/www.ifamericansknew.org/

Israeli casualties:
121 children killed
1084 Israelis killed
7633 Israelis injured

Palestinian casualites:
734 children killed
4020 Palestinians killed
30281 Palestinians injured

Assistance:
US gives $15,139,178 per day to Israeli government and military
US gives $232,290 per day to Palestinian non-governmental organizations

UN resolutions:
65 targeted against Israel
0 targeted against Palestine

Demolition of homes:
0 Israeli homes demolished by Palestinians
4170 Palestinian homes demolished by Israelis

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/IOT_home

Since September 29th, 2000 (the start date of the al-Aqsa intifada):
2000 Palestinians killed (380 were children) by Israeli Defence Force (IDF)
100 assassinations by Israel

750 Israelis killed (500 were civilians, 90 were children) by Palestinian groups

"Thousands of Palestinians, hundreds of them children, have been arbitrarily detained in mass arrests. Most have been released without charge and often without having been questioned. Ill-treatment of detainees has become once again widespread during arrest and interrogation and some have been tortured. Some 800 Palestinians are held in administrative detention without charge or trial, on the basis of "secret evidence", which neither they nor their lawyers are allowed to see or challenge in court. Most detainees cannot receive family visits because of the closures preventing movement of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. Dozens of Israelis have been imprisoned as prisoners of conscience for refusing to perform military service or to serve in the Occupied Territories."

"Since the beginning of the intifada, the IDF has destroyed more than 3,000 homes and damaged thousands more, as well as large areas of agricultural land and other public and private properties, and water and electricity infrastructure in both urban and rural areas. As a result thousands of Palestinians have been made homeless, many of them children, and tens of thousands have lost their main or sole source of income."

"Since the IDF retook control earlier this year of most areas under the jurisdiction of the PA, it has imposed comprehensive and prolonged closures and curfews on an unprecedented scale throughout the Occupied Territories. Most Palestinian towns and villages have been cut off from one another and from surrounding villages for most of this year, and prolonged curfews continue to be imposed on the major population centres and elsewhere. These sweeping measures of collective punishment affect millions of Palestinians, whose access to work, education and medical care has continued to be denied or severely restricted. This has resulted in the overall collapse of the Palestinian economy. Unemployment has spiralled and about half of the Palestinian population is now living under the poverty line"

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-index-eng

Since September 29th, 2000 (the start date of the al-Aqsa intifada):
2500 Palestinians killed (450 were children) by Israelis

900 Israelis killed (100+ were children) by Palestinian groups

"In addition, Palestinians living under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are subject to a wide range of human rights violations. Close to 20,000 Palestinians have been made homeless and thousands of others have lost their livelihood as the Israeli army has destroyed some 3,000 homes, vast areas of agricultural land and hundreds of other properties in the past three and a half years alone. Thousands of other houses have been damaged, many beyond repair. Israel’s justification for the destruction is “military/security necessity”. In Israel and in the East Jerusalem area security forces have also destroyed hundreds of homes of Palestinian citizens and residents of Israel on the grounds of lack of building permits."

"Families are forcibly evicted from their homes, often at night, without prior warning. They are given only a few minutes to leave their home and are not allowed to salvage their possession. The unprecedented scale of destruction has resulted in widespread violations of the right to adequate housing and standard of living for tens of thousands of people and violates fundamental principles of international human rights and humanitarian law. Whatever the justification for the destruction, the result is the same: thousands of families have been made homeless and left to rely on the charity of relatives, friends and humanitarian organizations."

"...two thirds of the Palestinian population is now living below the poverty line, and malnutrition and other health problems are spreading. Most Palestinians are now forced to rely, to some degree at least, on charity for food and other basic needs."

"Israel’s right to take reasonable, necessary and proportionate measures to protect the security of its citizens does not allow such disproportionate and discriminatory restrictions and collective punishment, which violate international law."

So note that it seems to be agreed that the Israelis have killed and injured more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed or injured Israelis... This might surprise us, judging by how things get reported in the news (i.e. we usually hear about a suicide bombing, and then see Israeli troops move in to "protect" themselves).

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/facts_sheets/torture.htm

Torture of Palestinians by Israeli forces includes:
"The issue of torture or other ill treatment of children in Gush Etzion police station was raised in a report by B’tselem, the Israeli human rights organization."

Hopefully, this all gives some idea of why the Palestinian people are so p*ssed off...

By the way, I also want to draw one very important distinction: it is one thing to understand why someone does something, and it is a different matter whether or not one condones it.

Whether or not we agree with someone's actions, we will never get anywhere near solving our problems unless we attempt to understand the other side, and labelling people as just stupid, subhuman, or otherwise leads to violence, not peace. We've had enough genocide in the 20th Century to surely have learned that by now...

 

[reed]

bbloke,

There is never a too long reply to such a tragic situation. Your sources are very interesting. I've passed them around to those who are "wondering"what is going on.
I have a few too but here is one for the moment that may interest you or anybody else on this thread............

http://www.truthdig.com/

For the moment, only J. Chirac seems to have given a "good" response to this crisis from the G8 meetings. GWB is his usual self. Deaf, bumb and blind. In fact they are all divided and wringing their hands on what to do.

 

[ora]

Great work bbloke!

For good background I heartily recommend the iron wall by Avi Shlaim, a very astute Israeli historian who is critical of both sides and presents a pretty balanced view given the inflammatory nature of the subject.

I also very much enjoyed Israel/Palastine: how to end the war of 1948 by Tanya Reinhart, another Israeli. She gives an excellent account of the issues and shows how officials on both sides have actively worked against peace, rather working to further their own power and influence. Reinhart has a website with more info and some articles here, plus i see she has a new book on the subject which I'm off to order now.

 

[Rhisiart]

Great work bbloke!

Yes, a very impressive list of sources. Much food for thought amongst them.

For good background I heartily recommend the iron wall by Avi Shlaim, a very astute Israeli historian who is critical of both sides and presents a pretty balanced view given the inflammatory nature of the subject.

This sounds interesting too.

I think what is so frustrating is that we're virtually powerless to do anything about the situation. We elect our politicians to formulate sound foreign policies and to apply pressure in regions where cultural hatred gets out of control.

Yet a significant number of contributors to this forum come from two countries that behave as arrogantly as the Israelies.

We can hardly lecture the Israelies or Hezbollah on restraint when you have someone like Donald Rumsfeld arrogantly using terms such as ‘Strike and Awe’ as his war planes bomb the living crap out of Baghdad (with the full backing of my country's politicians).

 

[bbloke]

Thanks, guys.

I think what is so frustrating is that we're virtually powerless to do anything about the situation. We elect our politicians to formulate sound foreign policies and to apply pressure in regions where cultural hatred gets out of control.

I think this frustration applies to much of politics in the West. Many feel they vote and then don't get what they voted for, or that "they're all the same." This can lead to people becoming disenfranchised with politics and politicians. I think when people no longer feel listened to and feel they have no political means to express themselves, things become Bad. Mmm, I sense a parallel with the theme at hand!

Yet a significant number of contributors to this forum come from two countries that behave as arrogantly as the Israelies.

I'd go along with that in general terms, but there are some areas where I think Israel is on particularly shaky ground. I think some Western countries are indeed guilty of major arrogance and tend to invade and overthrow who they want to and whenever they want to. At the same time, though, I think Israel goes a bit further and sometimes approaches "ethnic cleansing," which is more serious in my view.

We can hardly lecture the Israelies or Hezbollah on restraint when you have someone like Donald Rumsfeld arrogantly using terms such as ‘Strike and Awe’ as his war planes bomb the living crap out of Baghdad (with the full backing of my country's politicians).

I'd broadly agree, but then again I think one could live in the West and still thoroughly disapprove of both Western and Israeli actions.

A lot of all this is about point of view. "Freedom fighter" or "terrorist?" "Liberation" or "invasion?" "Self protection" or "aggression?"

 

[reed]

Speaking of points of views and there are many, many. Remember: "police action," "border conflicts," "cross frontier insurrections" "regional tinderboxes" "protective reactions," and "heated exchanges?"
One thing is sure, as G. Bush Sr. once said: "we are in big doodoo." For the moment anyway.