Israel's new tourism pitch...

Originally posted by Ugg
Now, not only the Palestinians are fair game but also anyone who enters the Occupied Territories.
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For somebody so overflowing with compassion, well, rather compassion for Hamass and Hezbollah and Saddam at least, you'd think you could spare a little love for the Israelis. Or at least their sad situation.

Real nice.
 
Sorry to interrupt you, but the "peace" people have no compassion for Saddam, they have compassion for the people who die. They have less compassion for the people who die with a gun in their hands than for the people who die without.

I'm not a peace activist or similar, but you transform their sayings by suggesting they have compassion for Saddam when they have compassion for the Iraki people (who still live a nightmare).

Same thing for Israel vs Palestine. If some extreme Palestine people deserve jail, Palestine is not occupying Israel. And the Palestine army is not destroying the houses of Israeli. The fact that someone says that the Israeli army is out of control does not mean that this person does not have compassion for the Israeli population.

Peace still has some progress to do in this part of the world.
 
I feel for every single person killed in Israel, N. Ireland, the former Yugoslavia and all the other countries torn by religious strife. They all died because their governments have ceased to value human life. Nobody deserves to die at the hands of their own government.

I've no sympathy for terrorists who choose to kill innocent men, women and children. I've also no sympathy for the people of Israel who elected a war-mongering terrorist to lead their country.

Israel (by this I mean all the people who live in Israel, not just the jews) created the situation it is in. It is up to all Israelis to find a way out. Arafat is slowly losing his grip and that is a first step. Now it is time for Israel to lose Sharon. Terrorists should not be elected to higher office.
 
Israel did not create Israel (I mean the modern Israel), it was created by Great Britain with the support of other European countries... a bit more than 50 years ago... without any consideration for the local populations.

Israel is not the only one to be responsible for this situation.
 
That is very true, GB made a bloody mess of it just like they did in Iraq and a few of their other colonies. However, the Israeli government is solely responsible for its own actions and cannot blame GB or the UN for its own policies towards the Palestinians. Especially since Israel refuses to allow the UN to mediate and has derided Tony Blair's middle east peace plan.

The Sharon government has placed all of its eggs in the basket of the United States. Israel's long-term survival depends upon peace with its neighbors. The US cannot continue to subsidize Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, etc indefinitely. Israel will need to make peace with the Palestinians before that can be done. Their response has been to build a wall around the West Bank. Essentially ghettoizing the Palestinians as the Jews were ghettoized in Europe. What's the next line of Sharon's agenda, a slow painful form of genocide?

Habilis, you deride me for my apparent lack of sympathy to the Israeli people, have you any idea what it is like for the majority of Palestinians today? Their living standards are roughly on a par with the Afghanis.
 
Originally posted by chevy
I'm not a peace activist or similar, but you transform their sayings by suggesting they have compassion for Saddam (...) Same thing for Israel vs Palestine.
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The Israeli Defense Force is the proxy army of the U.S. and their war against Palestinian terrorism is our proxy war. If you accept that fact, then the same logic applies to the peace movement; the terrorists and terror regimes are their proxy allies.

Originally posted by Ugg
Habilis, you deride me for my apparent lack of sympathy to the Israeli people, have you any idea what it is like for the majority of Palestinians today?
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Yes I do and it's a terrible scene and a terrible mess. I know full well the conditions in which they live. The Israeli's are not without blood on their hands. But if they wan't peace, either side, they need to forget history, as hard as it's going to be. The Arabs need to stop playing the blame game - which is the root of their endless frusterations and humiliations - and the Israelis need to make reparations. If there is a peace in the world that can happen, it's the Israel/Palestine question.
 
Originally posted by habilis
The Israeli Defense Force is the proxy army of the U.S. and their war against Palestinian terrorism is our proxy war. If you accept that fact, then the same logic applies to the peace movement; the terrorists and terror regimes are their proxy allies.
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I don't considere your opinion as being a fact. The only fact here is that this is your opinion.
 
Original cuts posted by chevy
1. Israel did not create Israel (I mean the modern Israel)
2. it was created by Great Britain with the support of other European countries...
3. a bit more than 50 years ago...
4. without any consideration for the local populations.
5. Israel is not the only one to be responsible for this situation.
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1. Indeed.
2. An Israelian state was a logical, legitimate request after WW2. Hence, all Europe did agree to create a haven for the Jews. Remember, WW2 is Diaspora #17 I think. Diaspora #1 was the Simon persecution; Diaspora #11 was WW1... Diaporas were recurrent before Israel was created.
3. 1948. Great-Britain agreed to leave the coutry (Jerusalem and Golan areas) and signed the white book (kind of state creation treaty).
4. Local populations were not opposed, at the very basis. In fact, little people know the local muslims were completely okay with the idea ! Until they saw the geographic plans the zionists had drawn in their backs.
5. Of course. But Israel is top of the list.

The actual situation is sickening. Not only am I bored with Tsahal, I'm also bored with Arafat. I'm sorry, I hate this man. Things seem so... static under his reign. Even if Arafat has been an active man before, and even if his first attempts for peace did fail because of Israel, his actual politics are much less incline to bring peace.

I hope the new Palestinian government will be an activist government, in the sense: a hype-active one. Even if it's more radical. Israel / Palestine needs change, and now, in my very humble opinion.
 
Lets not forget that Arafat said no to the biggest plan ever offered by Israel when Barrack was Prime Minister. If he had only accepted that plan they may not be in this mess today.

Many, including me, believe Arafat is to blame for much of the break down in peace talks. However blame must also be put upon Sharon for making things worse. I believe Sharon is elected because the Israeli people had grown tired of the stagnate peacetalks and thought that perhaps they could force them to the peace table, too bad they were wrong. Hopefully they will see they need more moderates leading their government.

Also I can't cite any sources now, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Israelis initially offered a co state with the Palestinians when they were creating Israel, but they said no, so Israel created the modern day Jewish state. Anyone have any more incite on this info?
 
Originally posted by dixonbm
1. Lets not forget that Arafat said no to the biggest plan ever offered by Israel when Barrack was Prime Minister. If he had only accepted that plan they may not be in this mess today.

2. Many, including me, believe Arafat is to blame for much of the break down in peace talks. However blame must also be put upon Sharon for making things worse.

3. I believe Sharon is elected because the Israeli people had grown tired of the stagnate peacetalks and thought that perhaps they could force them to the peace table, too bad they were wrong. Hopefully they will see they need more moderates leading their government.

4. [Although] I can't cite any sources now, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Israelis initially offered a co state with the Palestinians when they were creating Israel, but they said no, so Israel created the modern day Jewish state. Anyone have any more [insight] on this info?
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1. Arafat had reasons, good and bad, to do that. And this plan was not the more efficient peace plan ever built. The Camp David discussions could have been the end of the I/P conflict. Murders and political changes killed it.

2. All Arafat does is refuse plans he judges unworthy for his population. His behavior may be stupid at some times, at least it is legitimate. Sharon is an archetypical hawk, which is not legitimate in any way. Arafat may have made some errors, at least he wasn't doing them on purpose. I have far less scruples when it turns to Sharon.

3. Sharon was elected because of his tragically excellent campaign, based on fear, security and exasperation of the population. What a pity. I however understand Israelis. If I were living in Israel, I may have voted for Sharon. I do not mesesteemate the power of fear on human beings.

4. Check any documents concerning zionism post-WW2 to get a clear answer. Zionism excludes all contacts with other religions, while moderate Judaism is a friend of Islam, just like moderate Islam is a friend of Judaism. never forget both are based on the same [Old]_book.
 
Here is a brief history of zionism:

http://www.robincmiller.com/articles/hanna1.htm

I spent about 15 minutes googling for something that wasn't in some way biased. It was impossible. The above article is at least moderate. Don't know who the author is or what their affiliation is.

It is interesting to note that the Dreyfuss Affair influenced Herzl quite a bit.
 
This affair has been at the foundation of more events, thoughts, theories and conflicts than you can throw a stick at, even when that's your job or occupation like it is for me.
 
I can't help thinking that what this whole sorry mess needs is for the US to stop providing blanket support and turning a blind eye to what is going on there. Of course, the US Government makes all the right murmers of dissent when things get really out of hand, but we haven't seen any of the aggressive policing that we have in other countries. It was only a few weeks ago that I read in the papers a desparate request from Israel to the US for financial aid - it was cited that the economy was shot because of 30 months of military action in Palestine - and the US was going to provide $10 billion in military and financial aid.

It is this automatic "yes we'll help you" support for Israel over the years that would appear to have generated much of the anti-US sentiment in the fundamentalist muslim world. By all means, the US can provide aid to countries that ask for it, but the aid should not be so one sided in a conflict situation and it should certainly not be military aid. And if a country mismanages their economy by waging war, they should really get the financial cold shoulder.

All the recent hunt for weapons of mass distruction (WMD) quietly ommitted a couple of facts that I have learned throughout the recent Iraq war:
1. Iraq's biological weapons were GIVEN to Saddam BY THE US to assist his war against Iran.
2. Israel has weapons of mass distruction, also provided by the US.

Perhaps the US should stop trying to influence foreign politics and maybe it wont come back to bite them in the a*** years later.

I was stunned to read on the BBC site that the US military budget for 2003 was $342 Billion. This is more than the rest of the countries in the list put together, including the relatively "big" spenders, UK, France, China, Russia etc.!

Finally, as I understand it, the reason why the Arab league has been prevaricating over coming to the table for a complete ban on all WMD in the region is because they want the same rules to be applied to Israel, who oddly enough is not very keen to play that game.
 
The US refusal to support any UN resolution that condemns Israel for its actions against the Palestinians is legendary. And we wonder why so much of the Arab world hates us...
 
I found an interesting population equation in the updated CIA World Factbook regarding Israel and it's surrounding neighbors:

These numbers are average/per year

Saudi Arabia: 6.2 children born per woman
Syria: 3.4 children born per woman
Jordan: 3.1 children born per woman
Iraq: 4.6 children born per woman
Lebanon: 2.1 children born per woman
Egypt: 3 children born per woman

Israel (Not including West bank and Gaza Strip which is primarily Arab): only 1.6 children born per woman

If you go by those numbers, Israel will cease to exist, at least in it's present Jewish state, some time in the future.
 
Original cuts posted by Jabberwocky
1. I can't help thinking that what this whole sorry mess needs is for the US to stop providing blanket support and turning a blind eye to what is going on there.

2. It is this automatic "yes we'll help you" support for Israel over the years that would appear to have generated much of the anti-US sentiment in the fundamentalist muslim world.

3. By all means, the US can provide aid to countries that ask for it, but the aid should not be so one sided in a conflict situation and it should certainly not be military aid.

4. All the recent hunt for weapons of mass distruction (WMD) quietly ommitted a couple of facts that I have learned throughout the recent Iraq war:

4.1. Iraq's biological weapons were GIVEN to Saddam BY THE US to assist his war against Iran.
4.2. Israel has weapons of mass distruction, also provided by the US.

5. Perhaps the US should stop trying to influence foreign politics and maybe it wont come back to bite them in the a*** years later.

6. I was stunned to read on the BBC site that the US military budget for 2003 was $342 Billion. This is more than the rest of the countries in the list put together, including the relatively "big" spenders, UK, France, China, Russia etc.!

7. Finally, as I understand it, the reason why the Arab league has been prevaricating over coming to the table for a complete ban on all WMD in the region is because they want the same rules to be applied to Israel, who oddly enough is not very keen to play that game.
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1. Fictitious. American Jewish lobby.

2. Maybe, but that's far from being reason #1. The US has also provided Arab states with arms.

3. See point 2. Arab states are also armed by the US, at least since 1991.

4.1. Replace 'given' by 'sold'. At the time, Iran is the US axis of evil #1 country. The Shah is looked at like Saddam is today. In the Cold War context, this support to Saddam was predictable and logical.

4.2. Israel has 200+ nuclear heads provided by the USA, yes. So ? Reminder: Pakistan is muslim and unofficially possesses nuclear power too (more or less officially since 1998). Terror equilibrium = nullity of nuclear weaponry.

5. The US have a big problem since the end of the Cold War: disengagement. They succeeded in some parts of Africa, Asia, Europe. But not in the Middle-East, for the situation is more complex there than anywhere else. Plus, add the money factor :rolleyes:

6. USA = hegemonic unipolar unilateral power since 1991. USA = 56 years of Cold War at least. USA = large territory, large population. USA = atomic weapons, ICBMs/IRBMs, submarines, Star Wars. Add all elements and get such a budget.

7. That's a consequence of a theory called, international theories, the dilemma over security. The problem, as you spotted, is the Israeli administration at this point. But the Israeli government is itself a consequence of something else, and ... (never stops) ...
 
Originally posted by habilis
I found an interesting population equation in the updated CIA World Factbook regarding Israel and it's surrounding neighbors:

These numbers are average/per year

Saudi Arabia: 6.2 children born per woman
Syria: 3.4 children born per woman
Jordan: 3.1 children born per woman
Iraq: 4.6 children born per woman
Lebanon: 2.1 children born per woman
Egypt: 3 children born per woman

Israel (Not including West bank and Gaza Strip which is primarily Arab): only 1.6 children born per woman

If you go by those numbers, Israel will cease to exist, at least in it's present Jewish state, some time in the future.
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A bit too much evolutionist/darwinian to be realistic, but the idea behind it is of importance. The Middle East cities will be the next overpopulated area in the world, after African, South American and Asian ones.
 
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