iTunes - The Battle Begins

[TommyWillB]

Can you believe that Microsoft has the gall to write this?

http://beta.music.msn.com/help/ipod



calling the kettle black?

i hope iTunes can hold its ground against the MSN music store. I think it will because MS doesn't have an iPod to go along with their store.

LOL

When Microsoft makes their own music player, do you think they'll make it "open" so iTunes and import music into it?

 

[karavite]

What Apple needs to put out is iTunes and iPod software for Linux so all the people in China, India and Europe, who are telling MS and Windows to take a hike, can download music too! Seriously, you would think MS would be a little more busy with 3/4 of the world looking at a different OS instead of beating up Apple in the low profit online music market! Then again, I'm not sure they can help their old ways.

 

[fryke]

low profit but high profile.

 

[jonparadise]

Even though Microsoft have the money, and the penetration, I firmly believe they are starting (and have) made huge mistakes.

The main being, they are spreading themselves too thinly. My boss at work, who isn't even a computer fan, said - when I told him Microsoft are doing an online store:

'what? why do they have to do everything? Why can't they just do a few things well, rather than try and be a jack of all trades and do it poorly?'

Which is a very valid point. Microsoft seem to behave like a little kid. If they just concentrated on key areas, they would do well, but instead they seem to have to muscle in on every single market there is available, just 'because they can'.

It's gonna bite them on the bum.

 

[drustar]

I know just the thing to blow MS Music Store out of the water... Another iTMS giveaway. That'll have us downloading 100,000,000 more songs.

 

[Go3iverson]

Or an iTMS/iPod promo where you get a $20 gift card with a purchase of an iPod.

If they really want to strike, make an iMac promo, to really boost the pre-orders. It'll boost market share, further fuse the iMac and iPod, and all that good stuff. Something like, buy an iMac G5 with SuperDrive, save $50 on a 20GB iPod and get a $25 gift card for the iTunes Music Store. Buy an iMac G5 with SuperDrive and 40GB iPod, save $50 and get a $50 gift card to the iTMS!

I'm sure Apple could get some sort of deal with the labels to promote it, to further influence new computer buyers to purchase their music instead of downloading it from P2P networks.

 

[TommyWillB]

Or a free ITMS song credit for each DRM Windows Media sound file you "turn in"...

i.e. give us all of your Windows Media files and we'll give you back iPod compatible Apple Lossless files.

 

[Go3iverson]

Or a free ITMS song credit for each DRM Windows Media sound file you "turn in"...

i.e. give us all of your Windows Media files and we'll give you back iPod compatible Apple Lossless files.

That sounds like a good idea, but how do you know that the person doesn't have multiple copies or just burned a CD of all that music? That'll probably be the qualm the record companies would probably have with it.

 

[btoth]

Also, notice that Microsoft has changed their wording from "PC standard WindowsMedia format" to "popular Windows Media format" on that page.

That's hilarious. I read the original version and laughed... since when was WMA a PC standard? But it's even funnier that they changed it. I wonder what brought that on...

 

[TommyWillB]

That sounds like a good idea, but how do you know that the person doesn't have multiple copies or just burned a CD of all that music? That'll probably be the qualm the record companies would probably have with it.

Well that's the exact point that DRM (Digital Rights Management) solves. So if these companies trust their own (record company blessed) DRM solutions, then this ought not be an issue. Most people don't have the mechanism to rip a CD into a DRM-encoded digitial file. Also iTunes clearly can tell the difference between a burned CD and the original.

So in all cases Apple ought to be able to figure out if this is a legitimate copy or not.

Rember the radical thing about the ITMS was not downloadbable music... It was the fact that they were downloading record-company approved DRM enabled files. Clearly Apple understands this game.

 

[TommyWillB]

That's hilarious. I read the original version and laughed... since when was WMA a PC standard? But it's even funnier that they changed it. I wonder what brought that on...

Maybe because it is only standard on WinDoze and not PeeCees running things like Linux... or even older Windows 95/98/NT....

 

[chemistry_geek]

One way Apple could increase its overall market share would be to include several strategies:

1. Launch a massive iTunes Music Store Give-A-Way (100,000,000 songs) through third party company products (to help drive the economy a little).
2. Enter your code to participate in an iPod Mini and iPod Give-A-Way.
3. Enter your code to participate in iMac G5 and PowerMac G5 Give-A-Way.
4. 15% to 20% of the 100,000,000 songs are hardware give-a-ways.

I think Apple would not increase its brand recognition and iTunes Music Store market share, but also its hardware market share. This would really crinkle Billy Borg's foreheard and deal Micro$oft a triple blow. The more iPods that are sold, the more likely auto manufacturers (like BMW) will include standard connectors for iPods. I would love to be able to control an iPod from the steering wheel of my Saab 93. Apple can afford this, it has some money to burn now to secure additional market share in the future.

 

[btoth]

Maybe because it is only standard on WinDoze and not PeeCees running things like Linux... or even older Windows 95/98/NT....

Ha, yeah, I was being sarcastic... should've included the rolly eyes. Heck, even in Windows I've always avoided WMA in favor of MP3s. I never though WMA was all that great and I always hated Media Player, especially the later versions that took up the whole screen.

 

[Go3iverson]

Well that's the exact point that DRM (Digital Rights Management) solves. So if these companies trust their own (record company blessed) DRM solutions, then this ought not be an issue. Most people don't have the mechanism to rip a CD into a DRM-encoded digitial file. Also iTunes clearly can tell the difference between a burned CD and the original.

So in all cases Apple ought to be able to figure out if this is a legitimate copy or not.

Rember the radical thing about the ITMS was not downloadbable music... It was the fact that they were downloading record-company approved DRM enabled files. Clearly Apple understands this game.

I think we missed each other here!

Ok, so you proposed promo is for people being able to trade in a MSN purchased song to iTMS for a one song credit. My questions are as follows:

1. User burns a CD of their MSN music tracks. User then simply uploads their DRM protected file to iTMS to get a second track for every track they already had. So that user still has copies of the music.

2. The issue then becomes cross service account updating. By that I mean, you buy a song from iTMS, there's a record in your account listing that you have rights to play that song. Now, if you turn in a MSN track, will MSN really care to proceed with the additional work that iTMS is giving them in deauthorizing that track many times over? (I hope that was understandable! I tried!)

 

[TommyWillB]

I think we missed each other here!

Ok, so you proposed promo is for people being able to trade in a MSN purchased song to iTMS for a one song credit. My questions are as follows:

1. User burns a CD of their MSN music tracks. User then simply uploads their DRM protected file to iTMS to get a second track for every track they already had. So that user still has copies of the music.

I'm not sure how this works PC-side, but on the Mac iTunes "knows" if you've burned a copy of the song you bought from ITMS. (In fact I think it limits you to only 4 burns... right?)

So assuming this is similar with the DRM in Windows Media, then Apple could limit this to only Windows Media files that have NOT been burned.

2. The issue then becomes cross service account updating. By that I mean, you buy a song from iTMS, there's a record in your account listing that you have rights to play that song. Now, if you turn in a MSN track, will MSN really care to proceed with the additional work that iTMS is giving them in deauthorizing that track many times over? (I hope that was understandable! I tried!)

No... I don't understand. What is there to de-authorize? You can't re-download your already authorized Windows Media file... Right?

 

[ElDiabloConCaca]

I'm not sure how this works PC-side, but on the Mac iTunes "knows" if you've burned a copy of the song you bought from ITMS. (In fact I think it limits you to only 4 burns... right?)

It's 7 burns, and it only applies to playlists, not individual songs. You can burn individual songs as many times as you like, just as long as it's not the same playlist more than 7 times.

It's not really a limitation at all -- you can make a playlist, add your songs, make another playlist with the same songs, burn the first playlist 7 times, delete all the songs in that playlist and just copy them back over from the duplicate playlist you created. As long as the playlist changes ever so slightly, you can burn it unlimited times.

 

[Go3iverson]

I'm not sure how this works PC-side, but on the Mac iTunes "knows" if you've burned a copy of the song you bought from ITMS. (In fact I think it limits you to only 4 burns... right?)

So assuming this is similar with the DRM in Windows Media, then Apple could limit this to only Windows Media files that have NOT been burned.

No... I don't understand. What is there to de-authorize? You can't re-download your already authorized Windows Media file... Right?

Your allowed unlimited burns of iTMS songs, but only 7 or 10 of a particular playlist. Change the playlist, your back at zero. The question is, can you only trade in songs that you've never burned? Then, will Microsoft, Real, Buy, etc all give Apple ways to check if the DRM protected track has been burned, to qualify for the trade in?

Your right, you can't re-download, but if you transferred it to a FireWire disk, or such, you'd still have the track. Also, since, for example, Microsoft controls the authorization for usage of DRM protected tracks you purchase from them, will Apple then give Microsoft all the information needed to update each individual user's account for each individual track they trade in to Apple?

What I'm saying is, I buy a track from MSN. Apple has a promo for me to trade it in for an iTMS track. Great! I back up my MSN track onto a FireWire disk (or some such device) and send my track off to Apple. They receive the track. The authorize my iTMS account to have a song credit. Now, since that original song was authorized by MSN, can't I just keep playing the track? How will Apple get MSN to de-authorize that specific track for that specific user? It appears that it would create quite a bit of work for MSN and Apple alike.

 

[fryke]

I'm not quite sure what this discussion's all about now. Such a promo would be _much_ too complicated. And also it would be concentrating on the 'fiend' instead of the customer and the product. Let Apple do promotions, I'm all for that. But let them do stuff like with Pepsi, only better.

One idea: Every iPod automagically comes with five free songs you can choose from iTMS. Makes you a) a customer and b) likely to buy more soon.

 

[Go3iverson]

I'm not quite sure what this discussion's all about now. Such a promo would be _much_ too complicated. And also it would be concentrating on the 'fiend' instead of the customer and the product. Let Apple do promotions, I'm all for that. But let them do stuff like with Pepsi, only better.

One idea: Every iPod automagically comes with five free songs you can choose from iTMS. Makes you a) a customer and b) likely to buy more soon.

That's what I'm in support of. I agree, the trade in of songs is too complex, which is what I was trying to explain, but evidently not too well.

I'd like ot see around the holidays, a big iPod/iMac push like I suggested. I'd like to see $10 gift cards with purchase of an iPod. I'd like to see $20 gift cards to iTMS with iMac purchase. If you buy both on one receipt, you get a $35 gift card to iTMS and $50 off the iPod.

Its still less money than the Cram and Jam deal (buy a portable, get $200 off an iPod), it will increse iPod market share, iTMS market share, and OS X market share (sorta).

You get the iPod, you should be using iTMS, but this will guarantee it. You buy the iMac, you get $20 in iTunes cash, so then you buy an iPod. Buy both, great, get $50 back in rebate and $35 in music for dropping $1599+ in one shot at your local Apple Store.

 

[applewhore]

One idea: Every iPod automagically comes with five free songs you can choose from iTMS. Makes you a) a customer and b) likely to buy more soon.

Amazon's already offering something like this through their Target shop (?!)

15 free iTunes and free shipping to "enjoy"! ;-)