Leopard to Feature Redesigned Finder
- Thread starter kainjow
- Start date
Yeah, they _should_ have just offered column view to replace all other views instead of half-heartedly bring along "old style" Finder windows that have _not_ worked consistently in _any_ version of OS X since. But Ars Technica has, I think, about three dozen articles on that very subject...
Those are pretty good points, actually. Here's some more:
1. How about more and better previews (Illustrator for example. I mean, they can bring in AI files beuatifully into Keynote, do the same for the Finder previews. After all, they're really just PDfs these days. Same for Indesign files. And lots of others.)
2. Here's a subtle, but annoying one for me. If you have a folder of movies in column view and you stretch out the far right panel (so the movie plays bigger when you're previewing it), if you delete that movie or move it, the panel shrinks back to the original smaller size. I know, pretty obscure, but I tend to preview a lot movie files in column view.
3. For the love of god, can someone write a shareware app that shows me file size total (like maybe putting in the bottom of a window or something) when I select files without making me open a Get Info window?!
4. Didn't the Finder very recently (pre-Tiger) used to show Get Info's on multiple windows by "summing" the data? In other words, if you selected ten files and chose Get Info (Command+I) it would bring up one summary window, not ten, right? Or am I crazy? Did they go back to the stupid OS 9 way of bringing up ten Get Info windows? Is that a preference somewhere? I hate that. (Yes, I know about Command+Option+I, but that works a little differently in that it reacts to newly selected files and frustratingly doesn't close via Command+W. Could they please get more consistent with what things require Command+Q, Command+W or neitherif you choose Command+Option+I (you have to do Command+Option+I again. WTH?).
5. If you select multiple items in the column view, there's no summary window in the right panel. Huh? Just do some simple math computer, you're supposed to be good at that. (Hint: 2 MB plus 4MB equals 6MB.)
Other thoughts:
1. The Finder renaming mode is indeed too slow. It seemed like they fixed it a while back and then it slowed down again. I've resorted to taking the approach of implementing the Return key to get instant-edit mode. Still not as good as the quick mouse flick edit method of old. I can't comprehend Apple going backwards like that.
2. OS X does seem better overall at allowing keyboard navigation. I've become quite accustomed to primarily navigating via keyboard. Once you get used to it, it's surprisingly fast. Usually faster than a mouse.
3. I use iKey for launching apps and files as well as opening directories at the window size, format and position that I want. It gets around the Finder's somewhat inconsistent approach. For example, I set Control+D to open my documents folder at a set size and position. Way fast. Anyone who is navigating manually to their commonly used folders is wasting their time. I watch people digging through folders getting to things they use all the time. It makes me crazy.
1. How about more and better previews (Illustrator for example. I mean, they can bring in AI files beuatifully into Keynote, do the same for the Finder previews. After all, they're really just PDfs these days. Same for Indesign files. And lots of others.)
2. Here's a subtle, but annoying one for me. If you have a folder of movies in column view and you stretch out the far right panel (so the movie plays bigger when you're previewing it), if you delete that movie or move it, the panel shrinks back to the original smaller size. I know, pretty obscure, but I tend to preview a lot movie files in column view.
3. For the love of god, can someone write a shareware app that shows me file size total (like maybe putting in the bottom of a window or something) when I select files without making me open a Get Info window?!
4. Didn't the Finder very recently (pre-Tiger) used to show Get Info's on multiple windows by "summing" the data? In other words, if you selected ten files and chose Get Info (Command+I) it would bring up one summary window, not ten, right? Or am I crazy? Did they go back to the stupid OS 9 way of bringing up ten Get Info windows? Is that a preference somewhere? I hate that. (Yes, I know about Command+Option+I, but that works a little differently in that it reacts to newly selected files and frustratingly doesn't close via Command+W. Could they please get more consistent with what things require Command+Q, Command+W or neitherif you choose Command+Option+I (you have to do Command+Option+I again. WTH?).
5. If you select multiple items in the column view, there's no summary window in the right panel. Huh? Just do some simple math computer, you're supposed to be good at that. (Hint: 2 MB plus 4MB equals 6MB.)
Other thoughts:
1. The Finder renaming mode is indeed too slow. It seemed like they fixed it a while back and then it slowed down again. I've resorted to taking the approach of implementing the Return key to get instant-edit mode. Still not as good as the quick mouse flick edit method of old. I can't comprehend Apple going backwards like that.
2. OS X does seem better overall at allowing keyboard navigation. I've become quite accustomed to primarily navigating via keyboard. Once you get used to it, it's surprisingly fast. Usually faster than a mouse.
3. I use iKey for launching apps and files as well as opening directories at the window size, format and position that I want. It gets around the Finder's somewhat inconsistent approach. For example, I set Control+D to open my documents folder at a set size and position. Way fast. Anyone who is navigating manually to their commonly used folders is wasting their time. I watch people digging through folders getting to things they use all the time. It makes me crazy.
Mikuro
Crotchety UI Nitpicker
fryke said:
If they had done that, I absolutely never would have upgraded to OS X. I mean it. The half-heartedness kept me away pretty long as it was, but if they'd done away with it altogether, I would've jumped ship. Better to have a slap in the face than a kick in the groin. I can't begin to describe how much I hate column view... (although I do think the general idea of it is great)This is another thing that has simply confounded me since upgrading to Tiger. It's true, they used to always display in one window. I actually hated it that way, because most of the time I wanted multiple windows (which surprises me when I think of it abstractly, but nevertheless, it's true in practice). So I'm actually glad they have two methods for this now. The problem is that it is, once again, implemented in an incomprehensible manner.mindbend said:
For one thing, like you mentioned, the Inspector is a floating window, whereas the normal Get Info is not. This has always bugged me. I just find it hard to imagine anyone wanting to use it that way. I usually want to take a glance at it and then close it. But since I can't close it from the keyboard, I always end up closing my active window instead by mistake. Ugh. It makes sense that it's a floating window when you consider the history of it, but at this point it really ought to be a plain window.
But the worst part is that sometimes the regular command-I DOES open the one grouped info window, just like before. Despite my best efforts, I've never been able to determine any rhyme or reason to this. It just happens every now then.
Go figure! It's possible this has been fixed in 10.4.2, but I can't say for sure since I never figured out a way to reproduce it reliably.Most of my problems with the Finder can be summed up by saying that Apple no longer seems to reconsider the overall design of things when they make changes. They just make changes and additions that sound good, but they don't revisit all the things these changes effect. Which, come to think of it, was my biggest beef about Windows' apparent design philosophy for many years.
One thing I do hate about the Finder in Tiger is that if you are doing a lot of stuff involving disk access such as copying a lot of data to another drive, the Finder won't display any new directory listings. It just sits there with a blank window, spinning that progress wheel around until the other disk activity is done.
A few things about the Finder:
1) Where is command + x aka cut? Is this pattented by Microsoft or so? Now you have to copy the file and paste it where you want to, and then you have to go back to the original file to delete it.
2) Not really a finder-thing... I want another way to resize windows, the one of alt-resizing. Hold the option-key and resize, the window will expand in both direction of resizing. This already happens without the use of the option-key in Save/Open dialogues in applications.
3) A small thing: the selection of files in the Finder. It's just so... ugly. Especially with the ones that are labeled.
4) It's totaly unclear in the image above in which folder the folder iTunes is located.
1) Where is command + x aka cut? Is this pattented by Microsoft or so? Now you have to copy the file and paste it where you want to, and then you have to go back to the original file to delete it.
2) Not really a finder-thing... I want another way to resize windows, the one of alt-resizing. Hold the option-key and resize, the window will expand in both direction of resizing. This already happens without the use of the option-key in Save/Open dialogues in applications.
3) A small thing: the selection of files in the Finder. It's just so... ugly. Especially with the ones that are labeled.
4) It's totaly unclear in the image above in which folder the folder iTunes is located.
1) While I wouldn't really mind them adding Cmd-X to Cmd-C, Mac users usually just _drag_ a file and then hover over the folders to let them spring-open. Drop them when you're "there".
2) Hm. Interesting. Would be nice, maybe, but probably only a few people would really want this...
3) The labels thing, yes.
4) But that's because of the labels, too, I guess? For me, column view shows where I'm at, as long as you don't set the window _just_ for the screenshot so that this not-so-obvious problem occurs.
What I find worse is that if I click on a shortcut in the left pane, I can't move to the left, i.e. to the parent folders of the one selected in the shortcut pane.
2) Hm. Interesting. Would be nice, maybe, but probably only a few people would really want this...
3) The labels thing, yes.
4) But that's because of the labels, too, I guess? For me, column view shows where I'm at, as long as you don't set the window _just_ for the screenshot so that this not-so-obvious problem occurs.
What I find worse is that if I click on a shortcut in the left pane, I can't move to the left, i.e. to the parent folders of the one selected in the shortcut pane.
ElDiabloConCaca
U.S.D.A. Prime
Hey, YOU'RE the one that chose lime-green label and orange highlight! Is that really the Finder's bad taste in colors, or yours?senne said:3) A small thing: the selection of files in the Finder. It's just so... ugly. Especially with the ones that are labeled.
Just kidding...
ElDiabloConCaca
U.S.D.A. Prime
True -- I did like OS 9's implementation of Labels where the actual icon was colored -- although if the icon was intricate or included a lot of dark areas, sometimes it was hard to tell what color the label really was.
symphonix
Scratch & Sniff Committee
Some of the underlying metadata introduced with 10.4 hints at some possiblities here that are actually quite exciting. For instance, the file-typing system introduced in 10.4 is heirarchical and allows multiple inheritance, so a GIF image might be considered an "Image" and also an "Animation". Animation is a sub-class of video.
The same plugin structure that performs spotlight indexing could easily determine whether a GIF has more than one frame or not, and choose whether or not to consider it an animation.
"Document" includes classes such as "Text", "Email message" and "PDF".
If this architecture were expanded sensibly, it could pop Spotlight into a whole other realm of power. It could also allow for automatic conversion of files by the addition of plugins in the OS itself. For instance, imagine in a few years time, using a program developed in 2006 to open a file format that wasn't invented until 2008. It would be like using Photoshop 7 to open a DNG digital negative file. Compatibility problems could be beaten by updates to the OS, without worrying about updating the apps themselves.
Its hard to say exactly where and how the file system and Finder fwill develop in the near future, but the capabilities introduced "under the hood" in 10.4 are quite interesting and could be applied in lots of new ways.
Mikuro
Crotchety UI Nitpicker
I agree about the label implementation. This is another example of Apple not revisiting their old decisions when they make new ones.
Specifically, they did not revisit the Dock, or consider it at all. Labels have no effect whatsoever in the dock, since the title isn't displayed and that's exactly why you'd need the labels most! If the Dock displayed labels, I would milk it for all its worth as a user. As it is, I don't use it much for files and folders, because there's no way to distinguish them. As Bruce Tognazzini astutely points out at asktog.com, identical icons look identical.
While we're on the topic, I hate the OS X label menu with a fiery vengeance. Not only is it difficult to hit, but it's impossible to use with the keyboard (via Universal Access), and it's impossible to assign shortcuts (via Keyboard & Mouse). Boo! I want a real label menu, like in OS 9. Non-standard menu behavior makes me sad.
Specifically, they did not revisit the Dock, or consider it at all. Labels have no effect whatsoever in the dock, since the title isn't displayed and that's exactly why you'd need the labels most! If the Dock displayed labels, I would milk it for all its worth as a user. As it is, I don't use it much for files and folders, because there's no way to distinguish them. As Bruce Tognazzini astutely points out at asktog.com, identical icons look identical.
While we're on the topic, I hate the OS X label menu with a fiery vengeance. Not only is it difficult to hit, but it's impossible to use with the keyboard (via Universal Access), and it's impossible to assign shortcuts (via Keyboard & Mouse). Boo! I want a real label menu, like in OS 9. Non-standard menu behavior makes me sad.
Doh! I guess I can no longer consider myself someone who "gets things".fryke said:Mikuro: It was a little sarcasm...
Lt Major Burns
"Dicky" Charlteston-Burns
i find tog's comments on the dock strange. he says it's crap, for reasons i don't really care about, but offers no real solution, or in fact, any better examples of such an interface. this, therefore (i worked out in my head) must mean that the dock is the best example of such an interface. nobody has done it better, and if it's flawed, then that must mean that it's a VERY HARD problem, best solved by the dock, upuntil now.
also, all his rants on interface niggles only really serve to highlight just how poorly designed and layed out his website is.... ('read the top 10 bugs in history' list, for example)
also, all his rants on interface niggles only really serve to highlight just how poorly designed and layed out his website is.... ('read the top 10 bugs in history' list, for example)
I also flat out disagreed with many of To's dock issues, especially the one about having a specific "hit" area for activating the Dock. Is he crazy? That is a horrible idea. I love being able to whip my mouse down to the bottom of the screen (ANY area at the bottom) and get my dock. I do, however, admit to disliking the fact it often gets in the way when using many apps, Final Cut in particular. Sure, I can move it to the side, but it's a just a new can of worms. I would like an option (not by default) to only show the Dock if I'm holding the option (or other) key when I mouse to the bottom of the screen. Too bad Command+Space is taken for Spotlight, that would make a great Dock activation shortcut.
Mikuro
Crotchety UI Nitpicker
Hmm. This is really getting a bit off topic, I guess. I'll try to keep this short...
)
To quote Tog once again: "The problem does not lie with the Dock itselfif it makes a great demo, leave it inbut with Apple's apparent belief that it is a complete solution." I agree completely.
I'm not in favor of stripping a bunch of functionality out of the Dock. If they want it to be a Swiss Army Knife, then hey, that's cool. I do appreciate all the little things it does, and they're all useful in their own right (except the Trash; that really has no business being in the Dock, IMHO). But I don't appreciate my entire toolbox being replaced by a Swiss Army Knife! The Dock would be great as an addition to the Classic solutions, but it's lousy as a substitute. For example, WindowShade and the Dock's minimization really serve two very different purposes, but Apple decided to replace WindowShade altogether, and as a replacement, I find the Dock's minimization completely worthless. The Dock replaced so many things from OS 9; it does a whole mess of jobs, but most worse than the old dedicated solutions. That's not cool.
The result is that most people either A) adopt inefficient methods of getting their work done (e.g., digging through folders for just about everything, or putting it all on the desktop) or B) turn to third-party add-ons. I myself use RocketLauncher as a (poor) substitute for the Classic Apple menu. And ever since I first started using X regularly, I've avoided minimizing windows like the plague, because it's just not efficient for me like WindowShade used to be (Exposé goes a long way to addressing this, but that's really another story).
Honestly, if I had all my old solutions back the Apple menu, the Application menu/floater, WindowShade, pop-up windows, the control strip, etc. I wouldn't use the Dock at all, and I'd be able to work a lot more efficiently. IMO, the only thing the Dock replaces really well is the Application floater. And even though it does, I'd still like to have a Classic-style application menu in addition.
(Hey, I said I'd try to keep it short; I never said I'd succeed.)
Actually, OS 9 also had the application floater, which, when configured properly, was a very high-density palette that worked a lot like the Dock (except that it ONLY displayed active apps). (And Windows should never, ever be used as a yardstick for UI design quality.Veljo said:
)To quote Tog once again: "The problem does not lie with the Dock itselfif it makes a great demo, leave it inbut with Apple's apparent belief that it is a complete solution." I agree completely.
I'm not in favor of stripping a bunch of functionality out of the Dock. If they want it to be a Swiss Army Knife, then hey, that's cool. I do appreciate all the little things it does, and they're all useful in their own right (except the Trash; that really has no business being in the Dock, IMHO). But I don't appreciate my entire toolbox being replaced by a Swiss Army Knife! The Dock would be great as an addition to the Classic solutions, but it's lousy as a substitute. For example, WindowShade and the Dock's minimization really serve two very different purposes, but Apple decided to replace WindowShade altogether, and as a replacement, I find the Dock's minimization completely worthless. The Dock replaced so many things from OS 9; it does a whole mess of jobs, but most worse than the old dedicated solutions. That's not cool.
The result is that most people either A) adopt inefficient methods of getting their work done (e.g., digging through folders for just about everything, or putting it all on the desktop) or B) turn to third-party add-ons. I myself use RocketLauncher as a (poor) substitute for the Classic Apple menu. And ever since I first started using X regularly, I've avoided minimizing windows like the plague, because it's just not efficient for me like WindowShade used to be (Exposé goes a long way to addressing this, but that's really another story).
Honestly, if I had all my old solutions back the Apple menu, the Application menu/floater, WindowShade, pop-up windows, the control strip, etc. I wouldn't use the Dock at all, and I'd be able to work a lot more efficiently. IMO, the only thing the Dock replaces really well is the Application floater. And even though it does, I'd still like to have a Classic-style application menu in addition.
One of the designers of the original Macintosh OS.PS. Who's tog?
(Hey, I said I'd try to keep it short; I never said I'd succeed.)
sinclair_tm
wow, 1.4g is way faster!
You all want classic back? The only way I could bear it was with third party stuff. When OS X came out, I was using a PPC7500. I was mad that it was not supported. But when I found Xpostfacto, I got 10.1 off ebay really fast, and installed it. It was mostly a geewiss thing. It had somethings that I didn't like, but it was mostly because it was New to me. Then I got 10.2, it made all the difference in the world. After putting a G4/450 into the 7500, and 512mb ram, I never went back to OS 9 for any reason. I loved the Finder and Dock in 10.2. Then I found a DA G4/466 for sale, and got it. It had 10.3. I loved it even more. Then after it came out, I got 10.4 and it is fantastic. But I hate Spotlight, it never find what I want, and I hate how it sorts things by types and relevence. And I hope the Finder never goes that way. I like being able to 'file' things as I see fit, and I never have problems finding them. In fact I love how the home folder has music, photos and movies folders in it, because that was how I have always sorted things. And they were never more then 2 levels deep. So coloum view has never been a problem. Then with the get info window, tiger has three optins. The standard get info, the inspector, and get summary. The last is the one that opens only one window from muti files with the combined totals.
wow this turned into a rant. my point is that I love os x because it is so different then os 9, and i feel that it is better and works just dandy for me as it sits. if it goes to soptlight like navigation, then you can be sure that i will always have a terminal window open to move around in. but whos to say that over time i might not learn to like it as apple has it again?
wow this turned into a rant. my point is that I love os x because it is so different then os 9, and i feel that it is better and works just dandy for me as it sits. if it goes to soptlight like navigation, then you can be sure that i will always have a terminal window open to move around in. but whos to say that over time i might not learn to like it as apple has it again?