Made In Usa

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yossarian1000

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From what I've been able to gather, most Apple computers are now made overseas...China...except for the PowerMacs, which are still made in the USA.

This is a problem for me. On the one hand, I like macs and I like the OS, but, on the other hand, I don't want to continue supporting a company that outsources American jobs. Go ahead. Call me a protectionist and an islolationist. I won't be offended. I support American jobs, I support organized labor, and I don't shop at Walmart. Whenever possible, I buy products made here by people who live here and I do look for the Union Label.

Other than Lou Dobbs on CNN, nobody I know, nobody I meet, and nobody I speak with seems to be interested in our vanishing manufacturing jobs...except maybe for George Carlin, who seems to think that Big Business and Politicians don't give a about us as long as they can grab more money. They'll sell out our middle class to the lowest bidder.

So, much as it pains me, my next computer purchase will probably not be Apple and will probably be from:

http://www.unionbuiltpc.com/home.php

However, I'm open for discussion. Anybody want to share their thoughts?
 
First off, this isn't Apple news or rumors - should be moved to Cafe ;)

Second, I'm willing to bet most products you buy aren't made in the US. It's just too dang expensive. And yes, businesses thrive on making profits, what's wrong with hiring employees that do the same work for less? Hasn't China and Taiwan, etc been making products for us for decades? If you're going to base your next computer purchase from the location it was created... well, *no comment* :)
 
Most of the components are assembled in Asian countries anyway. Probably everything except the processor.

And keep in mind Microsoft do much of their software development in India.

I personally think the right way to improve workers' conditions is to demand imported goods to have been produced under acceptable conditions, by workers with relatively acceptable wages allowed to organize in unions. Of course, that's not going to happen as long as the WTO is ruled by neo-liberalists, but in my view, "free trade" is not free until the people involved is free as well.
 
ksv said:
........ Microsoft do much of their software development in India.
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Not true, Microsoft is planning to start development centre in 2008, and for the time being they're only doing some software testing(bug finding, asian languages, etc...). It is true that its 37% employees are Indian origin.
 
It won't go away. I bought a pen that had the American flag on it, and on the bottom, it said: Made in Japan.
 
I looked at the union built pc site to and really you are not doing anything to support American jobs and preventing outsourcing by buying from them. As bobw said all the components are foreign. I have built a few machines in the past and when you think about the 20 minutes they put into unpacking the boxes and putting the cards into the motherboard you have accounted for about 0.04% of the labor involved in making the computer.

Regardless of anyone's politics in the matter I think that such an ineffective gesture is more likely self-defeating than not. From your perspective at least with Apple the design jobs are still in California. So more of the labor that goes into making the computer is from the US. However, that is white collar work so it might not count depending on one's perspective.
 
You're a protectionist and an islolationist. We live in a globalised world, and the USA certainly "helped" creating this world. Well: You asked for that. ;)

Now for real, though... As I'm Swiss and live in Switzerland, I don't think that I can support your idea. At all. And I certainly hope that Apple does everything it can to allow Macs to become as inexpensive in all countries around the world as possible to stay competitive.

Think of it this way: By supporting Apple _in_ the USA, you support a US company that, by thriving, creates more jobs in the US. (Stores, online stuff, but also R&D, advertising etc.)
 
yossarian1000 said:
…China… I don't want to continue supporting a company that outsources American jobs… I support American jobs…
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Hmmm – so pollution, repressive dictatorial government, horrendous human right abuses and the illegal occupation of Tibet don't enter into it, then.

And people wonder why I dislike the USA: :mad: "the rest of the world as long as we're OK!" What a selfish, small-minded, myopic world view you people have.

:confused:
 
CaptainQuark said:
Hmmm – so pollution, repressive dictatorial government, horrendous human right abuses and the illegal occupation of Tibet don't enter into it, then.

And people wonder why I dislike the USA: :mad: " the rest of the world as long as we're OK!" What a selfish, small-minded, myopic world view you people have.

:confused:
Click to expand...

But CQ, why don't you tell us how you really feel.... ;)

(/me eyes target appearing on my chest :confused: )
 
Sorry nixgeek, but*it's something I feel strongly about! As a proponent of world peace and brotherhood, I dislike any country, government or people – including Britain – that acts purely out of self-interest and without consideration for others.
 
I dislike any country, government or people – including Britain – that acts purely out of self-interest and without consideration for others.
Click to expand...

I think you would find this doesn't represent most Americans, except maybe Bush and Cheney.
 
I have always prided myself that I don't judge people purely by their nationality, so I have nothing at all against the average "Yank-on-the-street" ;) – except the A-holes that voted for aforementioned Bush & Cheney. But any nation that can spawn such a horror as Donald Rumsfeld ought to feel collectively deeply ashamed of itself! :p

I'm making lots of new friends here, aren't I? :D
 
I am proud to be an American and vet. The situation I see is just because Bush is President (we all know how much he has screwed up)it seems now fashionable to "hate" America. You know you would be VERY surprised that the dreaded American conservatives want Bush gone too.
 
This hole hatred thing does seem like a fad. I mean it certainly makes some people feel better about themselves.
 
There are two sides to this issue. Yes, there are some who attack "America" (whether that means the people, the nation, or the government) because it can be socially acceptable. But I do say "some." I have lived in both the UK and the USA, and so tend to feel affinities to both countries, but don't really have a definite, single sense of national identity, which I think is a good thing in many ways. When I hear people attack "America" out of knee jerk reaction, rather than based on genuine facts, I tend to confront them and try to show the other side. Likewise, when I hear Americans talk of being leader of the free world or taking the moral high ground, then I confront them too.

I think it is really important to make some distinctions here! I don't think a lot of what people hear is genuine hatred, although that does exist around the world too. I also think we need to make distinctions between the American people, the American nation as an entity, and current or past government administrations. When people complain about the USA's role in the world, it is most usually about the foreign policy, rather than American citizens on an individual basis (although the line obviously blurs when you have citizens defending policies which others find reprehensible).

If this sort of thing becomes seen by Americans as a passing fad, where non-Americans have no real basis for disliking America's actions in the world and are just jealous or something, then I'd really, really, really worry. I would then not know if those with this view were simply not aware of things done in their name over many decades, or whether they actually supported them. For the sake of brevity, I won't go into lots of details at the moment, but the list does involve environmental policies which others cannot support, overthrowing democratic regimes, supporting dictators, turning a blind eye to genocide, use of torture, and so on.

I certainly wouldn't want people to get the feeling I'm attacking the USA right now. To me, bobw's and nixgeek's comments were very well measured and I appreciate them being understanding about what was at the heart of the matter. :) At risk of putting words in CaptainQuark's mouth, I expect these are the sorts of people he would have no issues with at all, and CaptainQuark is complaining about the attitudes of others. Also, to show this is not about targeting a certain nationality, I'll give you a counter example where I was deploring the manufacture of torture devices in the UK, which were then exported. Someone I was discussing this with then told me he didn't care about that, he was more worried about supporting British jobs. I then, as you can imagine, really went to town on him (verbally). People have concerns about all Western governments, but a problem is that America tends to be more powerful and therefore "the stakes are higher" (i.e. a greater capacity to do harm if they pursue similar or "worse" foreign policies), and that might it look like America is being a target out of some hidden motivation, when in fact the concerns are genuine.
 
Yes, I'm an American. Yes, I'm both a protectionist and an isolationist when it comes to minding our own business, staying out of other countries business, and protecting our own manufacturing jobs, but I also don't think we Americans spend nearly enough on foreign aid. Of course, if we still had manufacturing jobs here, we'd have a lot more money to spend on foreign aid because we'd have a lot more middle class people to pay middle class taxes.

Having Chinese workers who earn an average of $42 a month working 12 hour days just to keep WalMart supplied with cheap goods is not a viable solution either for helping raise the standard of living in China or providing Americans with decent paying jobs here. However, if you're a multi-national corporation, it's a perfect solution. As long as corporations are fat, the rest of us can live on the crumbs.

If the Chinese want to sell DVD players or computers in the United States, then either pay their workers equivalent US wages or pay a stiff tariff to make up the difference. My personal preference would be higher wages but I'm sure we could use the tariffs to pay down our trillion dollar deficit.

The United States no longer has an electronics industry, the steel industry is almost gone, and last night Northwest Airlines was reported to want to fire 2500 flight attendents and replace them with cheap foreign workers.

Yes, I'm aware that buying a computer from an American company which is assembled by a union member is a pointless gesture, but if the only option one is left with is a pointless gesture, why worry about it? Not shopping at WalMart is also a pointless gesture but I have no problem with that either.

Some of you may have noticed the union built pc site I linked to sells computers for about the same price as everyone else. The New Balance shoes I'm wearing are made in the United States yet sell for about the same price as "cheap" foreign shoes. The union made jeans I'm wearing are also about the same price. However, my union made sweatshirt is about $5 more. I can live with that.

Don't get me wrong. I can live with fair trade and globalization as long as it means a higher standard of living for foreign workers and not sacrificing our standard of living in the process, but when American companies use slave labor and stuff their own pockets in the process, well, that's just bad.

On the other hand, I guess you could make a good argument that bringing slaves into America to grow sugar cane in the early 1800s...not cotton, by the way...was good for the American economy and they were probably better off being slaves than they were back in Africa. Right? Globalization?

One argument about buying Apple products that I haven't seen here is the one where I continue to purchase American made and Union made products whenever and wherever possible but continue to support Apple because of their innovations....pretty much the same argument for buying that Porsche I can't afford or the French brie I so dearly love.

I suppose the thing I find most troubling is the large number of people who see no value in collectiving bargaining, no value in others having a good job...as long as you do...and the large number of people out there who don't realize there has never been a communist government on this planet ( a communist government by it's very nature must also be 100% democratic). I'm also at a complete and total loss as to why the FX Network couldn't make a go out of OVER THERE...but that's just me.

Thanks for the comments and the input.
 
You talk about Unions. Unions are a primary reason our jobs have left the US. People decide to unionize, then tell the owners of the company, how much they have to pay them, how much health insurance they have to supply,etc.
Still doing this today. In my city, the public transportation went on strike a few weeks ago. Major city, it crippled the city for a week, not long, but the last strike three years ago, when that contract ended, they went on strike for 40 days. The union wanted what they wanted, not caring about whether or not the city or state had the money to pay for their request. And, they negotiated in the new contract, that the workers didn't lose any money, they had to be paid their normal pay for the time they went on strike.

I'd go out of my may to buy non-union.

As for foreign aid from the US, I think the US should take care of the people here that don't have shelter, food, jobs, etc, before a dime is sent to any other country.

All the money we pay in taxes should help here first, but our politicians see fit to give our money away in anyway they want to.

example-Pennsylvania Senator gives France 4 million to study fruit flies.
 
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