Microsoft Doesn't Care about Apple...

Sirtovin

Senior Switcher Tech Guru
This is my opinion... I am a Switcher... Been a PC user from Windows 3.11 till Windows XP... I've seen alot of change in the PC industry since I have sold Computers and their parts... When the average Customer goes into places such as Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUsa, or any place that actively sells a Computer, (Magazines also... are guility.) The immediate perception by the average sales person when asked about an Apple is to Stay the hell away from an Apple unless you do Graphic Design or Movie work. They tend to tell the average user that OS-X, is useless because it won't run games which is not true.

Now how do I link this to Microsoft... Simple... Every Computer geek knows of the Story of Gates Vs Jobs... How it all began in 2 garages... etc... Microsoft now see's Apple gaining finally with the move to Intel processors and Bootcamp... Now Microsoft see's the average user can have their cake and pudding too. Before it use to be an old AV Switch box to PC to MAC, or Virtualization... Now its... even more Simple... Bootcamp or Parralles... Me I like Bootcamp cause I can play my favorite games on it... Parralles is good for the user that wants to work on some other high tech programs.

Microsoft to me never has the end-user in mind... Why? Well when I saw the switch from Windows 3.11 to 95... At Office Depot where I worked people came in screaming did I have a floppy disc for printers... For you see when 95 shipped the drivers which were 8-bit were now 16/32 bit drivers for the average old printer that was Windows 3.11-95 Everyone of the manafature's, it seemed did not coordinate with Microsoft to ship a driver disc... that would work with Windows 95.

Now with Vista on the horizon they may face a similar situation where drivers will not work with pre-existing devices... Even though Microsoft is working hard to avoid that repeat...

As for Apple... Microsoft seems to enjoy the stigma that Apple Computers stink... Let's face it... At Best Buy or CompUSA, an employee would rather sell a PC, than an Apple due to ignorance.

The Averager Sales person is programmed to say the following... "Why would you want an Apple? They are overpriced... They can't run games, can't do alot of upgrades expensive to service." Microsoft enjoys this because its fact but its a misconception.

Fact because Apple is expensive...
Fact because Apple is still limited to its games... (But so are PC's now with X-Box, and PS2, and 3 and 360, in place...)

Here's where its false...

Apple is expensive because of piece of mind... when you buy an Apple Apple, stands behind the product. Most Computer manafatures give you a run around if you have a problem. Apple will service the computer and take of the problem. They will bend over backwards at any of their Apple Stores to educate, fix and sell you an Apple.

Apple Computers have come along way Since Steve Jobs, came back to Apple, he has literally turned Apple around with Ipod, the G4, G5, and OS-X. I am happy he has done this. Gates has made a mistake with underestimating that Apple will always be 10% of the Computer Industry... I think Apple has a chance to become more and more popular in the next few months and years than Microsoft and its Vista...

This is just my opinion. I am probably wrong on my facts... but this is the way I feel... Microsoft doesn't care.
 

CharlieJ

R.I.P bobw
I believe that Microsoft just want to sell the product and not actually make the user feel that the product is a good product and they dont need to please the customer as most people do not know what a Macintosh is but apple do they seem to want the user to enjoy the product, I feel Windows is rushed, and the Mac is just a work of art. :D

(but this is just my opinion)
 

Sirtovin

Senior Switcher Tech Guru
I believe that Microsoft just want to sell the product and not actually make the user feel that the product is a good product and they dont need to please the customer as most people do not know what a Macintosh is but apple do they seem to want the user to enjoy the product, I feel Windows is rushed, and the Mac is just a work of art. :D

(but this is just my opinion)
For years as a Retail specialist... Selling Computers I was told over and over by manangment not to push Apple... And when the Computers did sell... (Sears used to carry the Imac colored line of them...) managment would say WoW, nice bottom line keep it up... Conflicting signals.
 

Natobasso

Tech-Bot 5000
I think the iPod has been Apple's back door into the pc market. The iPod is everywhere, just like pcs, and since it's so easy to use more and more pc users are going to a mac.

Now that we're in intel processors there's going to be less and less difference between macs and pcs, and we'll probably be able to run both systems simultaneously or have one system that runs both (hello Unix and Linux!). The lines are blurring and the mac just looks better overall. :)

Of course I have just bought a pc laptop so I can start programming in .net. It does have some great features, and starts up faster than my G4 powerbook, but oh the virus and spybot threats are amazing!
 

Sirtovin

Senior Switcher Tech Guru
I think the iPod has been Apple's back door into the pc market. The iPod is everywhere, just like pcs, and since it's so easy to use more and more pc users are going to a mac.

Now that we're in intel processors there's going to be less and less difference between macs and pcs, and we'll probably be able to run both systems simultaneously or have one system that runs both (hello Unix and Linux!). The lines are blurring and the mac just looks better overall. :)

Of course I have just bought a pc laptop so I can start programming in .net. It does have some great features, and starts up faster than my G4 powerbook, but oh the virus and spybot threats are amazing!
should have got a macbook pro.. lol... :p than put bootcamp on it to have the best laptop in the world.. lol.
 

Natobasso

Tech-Bot 5000
so Bootcamp runs Windows XP pretty well then? Where can I read more on Bootcamp?
 

Sirtovin

Senior Switcher Tech Guru
so Bootcamp runs Windows XP pretty well then? Where can I read more on Bootcamp?
there have been reports in the Bootcamp forum here.. that Windows Messenger Live is not working on their bootCamp partitioned. Other than that Games run well... I broght CivRome and it runs fine. So did Star Wars Battlegrounds II.
 

fryke

Moderator
Staff member
Mod
Generally, BootCamp does not much than enable you to install Windows XP "on that PC" you've got there. Hardware-wise, there's not much different in a Mac than in a PC nowadays. BootCamp also gives you a CD with drivers for the hardware XP doesn't know about out of the box. So... You generally get a great running Windows XP. I haven't run into problems, myself. (Then again I don't use that Live chat thingie on XP.)

But on topic of the original post: You're mixing things. Sales reps are not "Microsoft". So it's not really about Microsoft's best interests when a sales rep is taught not to push Macs. Also, he might simply not know the first thing about Macs, and then it wouldn't make much sense for him to show you a Mac, because all that would show was that he doesn't know anything...

That's where we come in. Are you in a store that sells Macs? Does a sales rep push a person towards a PC? Step in, start asking questions about the Macs on the floor, correct the sales rep when he talks stupid, push the person towards the Mac. If there _is_ an interest in the Mac at first, then that person will happily follow you to the light. ;)
 

Sirtovin

Senior Switcher Tech Guru
Generally, BootCamp does not much than enable you to install Windows XP "on that PC" you've got there. Hardware-wise, there's not much different in a Mac than in a PC nowadays. BootCamp also gives you a CD with drivers for the hardware XP doesn't know about out of the box. So... You generally get a great running Windows XP. I haven't run into problems, myself. (Then again I don't use that Live chat thingie on XP.)

But on topic of the original post: You're mixing things. Sales reps are not "Microsoft". So it's not really about Microsoft's best interests when a sales rep is taught not to push Macs. Also, he might simply not know the first thing about Macs, and then it wouldn't make much sense for him to show you a Mac, because all that would show was that he doesn't know anything...

That's where we come in. Are you in a store that sells Macs? Does a sales rep push a person towards a PC? Step in, start asking questions about the Macs on the floor, correct the sales rep when he talks stupid, push the person towards the Mac. If there _is_ an interest in the Mac at first, then that person will happily follow you to the light. ;)

I totally agree with you. I know that one of my friends who has been an Apple fan for years got me into the Mac. For me it was a big change... I am A+ Certified in the Computer industry... All that means is if a Computer is broken on the PC end, I can fix it or build a new one. Mac is different.

See I was lucky Fryke... My friend Tim took me to CompUSA, in his first effort to get me to see the LIGHT.. lol.. Unfortunately... There was no Apple rep there... and the Salesman in red... shrugged their shoulders saying... "Sorry, We can't help you the Apple rep, is not here and I don't know much about Apple..." My friend Tim, went over to the Tower... (G4 it was.. This was in 2000... right before OS-X came out and was being offered as a Beta...) and tried to show me a few things... I was not impressed because of OS-9...

Than he had an Idea... He said lets go to the MacCenter... So I drove there... (The MacCenter was bascially an Apple Store that had the focus on all Apple Products at the time.) This Store had everything... even the Beta OS-X on its line of Macs.

It was there that one of the Managers took me to his office and explained all the differences of Mac's vs PC... and I was amazed.

A year later I brought a G4... Tower... Than 3 years later an Ibook and now I got the Intel-IMac... I am glad I got the best of both worlds.
 

Natobasso

Tech-Bot 5000
Now if mac prices would just come down to be competitive with pc laptops I could have just bought another mac and installed bootcamp... :)
 

texanpenguin

Registered Penguin
I can't speak for the US, but in Australia, the places which sell both Macs and PCs really *really* push the PCs. That's primarily because the salespeople get a huge commission on PCs and a tiny one on a Mac.

Margins on PCs are pretty much set to whatever a company likes. On Macs, they're confined to the prices Apple sets. Add to that that Apple sells the computers wholesale at all of about 8% discount, there is just not enough money to pay a reasonable commission for selling a Mac.
 

powermac

iMac Dual 2.0 17'
I can speak to my experience at our local Apple Store. It has been open for about 6 years now, in Albany. A core group of employees have remained, while many of the floor associates change often, and are mostly college kids.
I have personally witnessed some of these associates struggle to explain why, a potential customer should buy a Mac, verus going upstairs to Best Buy and getting a HP. Mainly they lack the knowledge of Mac OSX.

A specific example, once a middle aged professional was looking at the PB line. He was asking the associate questions, naturally based around some small business needs. The gentlemen's concern was how the Mac would be able to communicate with Windows clients. He asked the associate, "many of my clients send me files in PDF format, how can I read and create these on the Mac? The associate went on to explain, he would have to get Acrobat reader, to read and create PDF files.:mad:

If Apple is worried that Best Buy and the like don't push their products, they should also consider training some of the Apple Store employees as well.
 

Mikuro

Crotchety UI Nitpicker
Apple is expensive because of piece of mind... when you buy an Apple Apple, stands behind the product. Most Computer manafatures give you a run around if you have a problem. Apple will service the computer and take of the problem. They will bend over backwards at any of their Apple Stores to educate, fix and sell you an Apple.
I think even you're being a little unfair to Apple! Macs aren't any more expensive than similarly-equipped PCs. The problem is that Apple has no machines on the market that are equipped similarly to the cheapest PCs on the market. I mean, Apple's cheapest laptop has a built-in camera, for goodness' sake.

If Apple wants to shake the stigma of being expensive, they simply need to address the whole market, which they haven't done since Steve Jobs' return (and before that, Apple didn't address the market well, and their machines really were flat-out overpriced). But then again, I think Apple kind of likes the "stigma" at this point.

Then again, maybe you're being too fair to Apple. Depends on your perspective, I suppose.
 

Sirtovin

Senior Switcher Tech Guru
I think even you're being a little unfair to Apple! Macs aren't any more expensive than similarly-equipped PCs. The problem is that Apple has no machines on the market that are equipped similarly to the cheapest PCs on the market. I mean, Apple's cheapest laptop has a built-in camera, for goodness' sake.

If Apple wants to shake the stigma of being expensive, they simply need to address the whole market, which they haven't done since Steve Jobs' return (and before that, Apple didn't address the market well, and their machines really were flat-out overpriced). But then again, I think Apple kind of likes the "stigma" at this point.

Then again, maybe you're being too fair to Apple. Depends on your perspective, I suppose.
To Me Apple Will always be the Lexus of Computers... It won't ever be a FORD or a DODGE... Apple does stand by their products but the consumer has to be willing to pay for it. When was the last time you heard of a major breakdown with OS-X? (Never really... Sure hardware wise Apple has recalls... Example... Batteries... etc...) but when was the last time it was reported... "OMG, Apple has delayed OS-X, or Apple is not in the best of shape..." Lately it has not happened... M$ however is taking it in the rear end... for Vista... They keep... Ummm. Steal- I mean Innovating with the Apple Releases of OS-X...

General Point is... even with the MacMini, Apple struggles to make their product as if its a Ford which it is not.
 

contoursvt

Registered
See here is the only problem with Apple products... they are very proprietary which means if the power supply in a tower ever let go or if a system board let go, you have no choice but to pay apple what ever they ask. Thats my main reason for not buying a mac brand new (meaning pay a lot of money).

When one of our Dell's in the office (PIII 500) finally let go, we decided we would still use the 40gigabyte HD that was in there, the chassis, the DVD ROM, Floppy drive..etc. Purchased a P4 board, RAM, Processor and Power supply and basically made the Dell new again. Didnt cost a lot of money either and were purchased through a local computer shop. System board was an MSI and it fit pretty much perfectly.

I find that Apple tends to take advantage of its users whey they are really in need or down on their luck.
 

Mikuro

Crotchety UI Nitpicker
See here is the only problem with Apple products... they are very proprietary which means if the power supply in a tower ever let go or if a system board let go, you have no choice but to pay apple what ever they ask. Thats my main reason for not buying a mac brand new (meaning pay a lot of money).

When one of our Dell's in the office (PIII 500) finally let go, we decided we would still use the 40gigabyte HD that was in there, the chassis, the DVD ROM, Floppy drive..etc. Purchased a P4 board, RAM, Processor and Power supply and basically made the Dell new again. Didnt cost a lot of money either and were purchased through a local computer shop. System board was an MSI and it fit pretty much perfectly.
Ironically, I've had this problem with Dell more than with Apple!

My brother got a Dell PC free from his job, but it had no power supply. It did NOT use any kind of standard connector, so he had to buy straight from Dell. Worse yet, the people who took his order at Dell didn't even know the products, so they ended up sending him the wrong power supply. Pain in the rear, that was.

And Apple's HDs, optical drives, RAM etc. are all the same you see in PCs, and just as interchangeable.

But you're right, you can't just buy a new motherboard. At least, I don't think you can...Intel Macs do use custom motherboards, don't they? I assume they do so they can ensure OS X only runs on Apple hardware.
 

Sunnz

Who wants a stylus?
That's one of the main reason why I don't buy Macs for desktop... for laptops, fine, it is not like I'll be building my own and changing the motherboard anyway... but I do have my own hard disk, motherboard and cpu that I want to put on a Mac Pro, too bad that they happens to be the only components that you can't buy a new Mac Pro without!!!

So yea, till they let you choose the exact quantity of each component in their Mac Pro, I'll be getting one.
 

nixgeek

Mac of the SubGenius! :-)
That's one of the main reason why I don't buy Macs for desktop... for laptops, fine, it is not like I'll be building my own and changing the motherboard anyway... but I do have my own hard disk, motherboard and cpu that I want to put on a Mac Pro, too bad that they happens to be the only components that you can't buy a new Mac Pro without!!!

So yea, till they let you choose the exact quantity of each component in their Mac Pro, I'll be getting one.
How is this different from PCs manufactured from Dell, HP, Gateway, et al? You can't easily swap out the motherboard, especially on a Dell. And if by chance yuo ghappen to come across an OEM motherboard from someone like MSI or Asus, you're bound to only get one from that particular manufacturer and hope that it fits the dimensions of your computer. And even the CPU is a gamble sometimes, unless you know who manufactures that motherboard and then it's a matter of finding out what CPU is supported by it. This is not considering how voided your warranty would be if you did this.

As for hard drive, optical drives, and expansion slots, the Mac Pro and all generations of Pro-model Macs (Power Mac G5, Power Mac G4, Power Mac G3, all previous PCI Power Macs) are just as upgradeable and expandable as their PC counterparts. And not to mention all the third-party CPU upgrades there are for these systems, costing just as much as a brand-spankin'-new x86 processor or equal capability. So your reasoning is rather flawed when it comes to the Mac Pro and previous generations of the Macintosh towers.

Granted, the iMacs are still less upgradeable than the Mac Pro, but consider its directed market. Also consider that you can also upgrade the RAM and hard drive on those as well. Still a better option if you ask me. :confused:
 

Sunnz

Who wants a stylus?
As for hard drive, optical drives, and expansion slots, the Mac Pro and all generations of Pro-model Macs (Power Mac G5, Power Mac G4, Power Mac G3, all previous PCI Power Macs) are just as upgradeable and expandable as their PC counterparts. ....costing just as much as a brand-spankin'-new x86 processor or equal capability. So your reasoning is rather flawed when it comes to the Mac Pro and previous generations of the Macintosh towers.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding in my wording... but I am not saying that Mac Pro are NOT upgradable, I have seen videos of how it worked and I like how everything is putted together, like how the hard drives, ram, and optical drives just slots in, it is really an awesome design!! :)

However, when I visit the web site, I tried the configuration thing, despite the 100'000 something possible thing, it doesn't let me choose to have no hard drives, let alone motherboard/cpu.

The other thing is that I never have even slightly thought of buying a desktop from Dell, HP, etc... their design doesn't seem anything special... but Mac Pro has certainly caught my attention into start thinking about it.
And if by chance yuo ghappen to come across an OEM motherboard from someone like MSI or Asus, you're bound to only get one from that particular manufacturer and hope that it fits the dimensions of your computer. And even the CPU is a gamble sometimes, unless you know who manufactures that motherboard and then it's a matter of finding out what CPU is supported by it. This is not considering how voided your warranty would be if you did this.
I don't really know what you are talking about here... I have always been able to just get a new motherboard and it just fits my case, I guess I got one of those generic case? I don't know why CPU is a gamble? I mean, don't you know what CPU your motherboard supports?

And not to mention all the third-party CPU upgrades there are for these systems,
Umm... what do you mean by this? A new CPU or???
 
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