Mozilla defends itself against Safari

vanguard

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Slashdot has linked to a pretty cool article from Mozilla. The article mostly talks about the code size of Moz and the idea that comparing it to an incomplete product like Safari is unfair. Here are some quotes that I liked.

Today's web requires a rendering engine to do gymnastics to understand the wildly varying ways in which websites operate. Gecko performs these gymnastics with exceptional precision. Everything we've seen suggests that KHTML has a ways to go to catch up with rendering real web pages.

The particular performance data released by Apple for the Safari and Camino browsers have limited implications for Gecko performance for several reasons. First, the version that Apple tested, was the 0.6 release, which is built on an old version of Gecko. The Camino project began using a branch of the Gecko source almost a year ago and has not yet updated to a newer version. This means that the 0.6 does not contain a number of the performance improvements made to Gecko in the last year. The Camino team plans to move Camino to the current version of Gecko in the 0.8 timeframe, after which Camino will better demonstrate Gecko's capabilities and potential.

Anyway, check out the article. It's a good read.

Vanguard
 
it sounds lke they're trying to convince themselves they've made the best product out there.....

i use camino ~90% of the time, but honestly, camino and safari render almost all pages equally, with safari having a slight edge in speed.

i just think it's a bad idea to start a camino v. safari war from a top level like that. the two broswers can co-exist IMO.
 
It's also strange that mozilla takes Safari as such a competitor. After all, we're on 3% user base with the Macintosh, and certainly not all of those 3% are using Safari. Some are even still using OS 9.

Whatever they say: Mozilla _is_ quite big and clunky (not talking Camino here). Projects like Phoenix, Galeon and Camino show that not everything of it is needed, really.
 
Camino is a lot less stable than Chimera was. So much for the Gecko theory. Just try to surf cartonnetwork.com and you'll see Camino crash constantly.
 
i havent had much issue with the release of camino

these new nightlies are interesting though :)
 
The .7 release of Camino should be as stable as any of the Chimera builds.

The recent nightly builds of Camino are now being built off of the 1.4 Mozilla trunk, which means there's a lot of work to be done to integrate the newer rendering engine in to the application. The developers are aware of all the problems and are working on it.

I'd give it a week or two before I would attempt to use a nightly build of Camino. By then, most of the showstopper problems should be resolved, and Camino nightlies should be stable enough for daily use.
 
actually it's the 1.3RC1 trunk. thats why a lot of the UI widgets look all boxy like mozilla's.
 
First, the version that Apple tested, was the 0.6 release, which is built on an old version of Gecko.

Well, duh. That's all that was out when Apple brought out Safari, so what else are they going to test it on???
 
Originally posted by Captain Code
Well, duh. That's all that was out when Apple brought out Safari, so what else are they going to test it on???

I think their point was that Chimera was using a very old version of Gecko. I don't think they were suggesting that Apple was cheating.

Vanguard
 
...let's just say that many browsers for many platforms is the greatest thing of all...

BUT!

Trying to explain the difference of Mozilla's new versions with Safari's old versions isn't fair too! At that time those versions were available and almost nothing else. However, even with the new versions let's just say that Mozilla is faster than Safari displaying web pages but what about everything else? Mozilla still feels slower, still sucks more resources, still loads slower, still feels TOO much for a browser, still looks uglier... :D

Camino on the other hand can become (if not already is) a better Mozilla than Mozilla ;)

However, I still download and use (experiment, test) all these apps: Mozilla, Camino, Opera, Safari (of course), et al...
 
Originally posted by Satcomer
try to surf cartonnetwork.com and you'll see Camino crash constantly.

Try surfing anything on the Keenspot network with Safari. It'll crash within 3 pages.
 
this thread is about mozilla defending itself against Safari. please keep the thread on topic of the original linked article.
 
Wow, I think this thread actually includes the entire user base of non-IE Mac Browsers! [JOKE!]

Honestly, I would love more choices in the Browser market. I would love it if Microsoft had some serious competition. But right now 96-98% of my client sites have visitors using IE.

Until Safari or any other Web Browser has a killer app capability over IE, the majority of the user base is going to consist of people that are anti-Microsoft and will use Safari or Netscape because it is not a MS product. Is Safari faster, more stable, more useful than IE? Until that answer is clearly yes, the product may only exist as a stop gap solution for Apple to show Microsoft that they clearly do not need them. If Apple and Microsoft kiss and make up, will Safari be left to die like so many other Apple software products?

I hope Not.
 
Originally posted by pyroboy
Honestly, I would love more choices in the Browser market.
More choices on the Mac on Wintel pcs? On the Mac there are seven options that I can think of and on Wintel I can come up with five. I don't know how many more choices I would want. As a user I only need one and as a designer I have to test in as many as there are.

I would love it if Microsoft had some serious competition.
On the Mac I believe they do. On Linux and other desktop *nixes I think there are also plenty of options and competition. On Wintel machines I doubt this is even possible. As long as the OS developer is also the browser developer AND has Microsoft's business practices, IE will be the only installed browser to come with Windows and MS will have little to fear.

But right now 96-98% of my client sites have visitors using IE.
What percentage of your visitors use Windows? On my sites this averages about 90-95%, while IE accounts for around 70-80% of my browser hits. I don't think this is unusual, unfortunately. Windows IS the dominant OS. Someday I would hope that this would not be so much the case. I'd like to see some other developers follow Apple's lead and build a Unix-for-the-rest-of-us OS--one that runs on the x86 architecture and can really challenge MS. I'd like to see Apple holding between 10 and 15% of the market. But that's really all pretty immaterial to this diuscussion. My fault for rambling on like this...
 
Perhaps I should have said more viable choices when I mentioned I would like to see more choices of Web Browsers. By viable, I mean something that clearly beats Internet Explorer.

As an example, When Netscape came out, it clearly beat out NCSA's Mosaic
Browser. When IE came out, it clearly beat Netscape, but that was through back-handed illegal deals.

Where Opera failed is that even though it was faster than IE, it didn't support all o the same features and it cost money to use it. The choice consumers had was to use something free and pre-loaded on their system (IE) or pay and download something that might be better, if they heard about it at all (Opera, Netscape, others). Eventually, both were made free or had free versions. Trying to overcome the hurdle of free is very difficult. Even with the incredible hurdles Microsoft made their consumers jump through to use the product. Every time a consumer downloaded a new version, it disabled the old one. Talk about attrocious customer service! But even with all of that, people stuck with IE because it was the choice in front of them.

It is quite possible to release a product that could be an IE killer, especially with Microsoft looking to make things more difficult for consumers. What that might entail, I don't know, but it is possible.

The thing that will make Safari successful is if it clearly beats out IE enough that people stand up and notice.

The other thing that could make Safari successful is if Microsoft kills IE for the Mac, but that is not a very desireable way to beat IE.


As far as users go, the largest collection of Non-IE users was Netscape 3.01 and that comprised a little over 1% of the people accessing my site. The next biggest is actually the google crawler!
 
the latest version of camino is faster and more stable than safari for me, the only problems i have with camino is that it sometimes gets very unstable when i have over 6 tabs on one window, after 6 or 7 tabs it gets slow and will crash.
Safari is faster thatn IE but not as stable specially on secure websites
 
Originally posted by pyroboy
Perhaps I should have said more viable choices when I mentioned I would like to see more choices of Web Browsers. By viable, I mean something that clearly beats Internet Explorer.
You make the point further down that this will be very difficult to accomplish because of IE's easy availablity. Unless several things change I think it is virtually impossible. I also don't think you can look to a browser like Safari or Camino to step up to the plate unless you are looking only at the Mac market.

IE is going to have the edge over every other browser because it is preinstalled on more than 95% of the computers shipping today, and is even sitting there on the desktop. This all comes down to the fact that most computer users are casual users rather than power users. Power users are interested in options and finding the best software around. But casual users just want to take the path of least resistance, which generally means using IE.

Now there are a few things that could cause this to change (potentially). The Justice Department could change directions and [conceivably] break up MS, which could lead to IE not being bundled with every copy of Windows, or to equal placement of other browser options. An other possibility would be AOL changing its browser-base to Netscape, which would technically decrease IE's market share. To a lesser extent other ISPs could do the same. A third option would be for Windows to experience a serious loss of market share.
 
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