Seperation of Church and State
- Thread starter Soapvox
- Start date
I think we finally agree on something. Although no one attemped to prove to me that air exists in the manner that I asked for, my point for asking the question was to get everyone to finally admit that you don't necessarily have to be able to see and define something scientifically to know that it exists as a fact. Thank you for clearing that up and proving my original point. I'm sure you are going to claim that the 2 are not comparable, so I'll take it one step further and ask this question. Does your conscience exist? Can you prove that one to me scientifically? Every normal person is aware of his or her conscience which makes them aware of their existence, but IT CANNOT BE PROVEN to exist scientifically!
Just because Jefferson made the point to question everything, doesn't mean that he didn't come to the conclusion that God existed. He refers to God, and the Creator everywhere in his writings. He constantly refers to moral truth (the foundation for the Constitution), as coming from God. One of the hundreds of quotes by Jefferson once again refering to the Creator as the source who endowed us all with the understanding of moral truth (law): "He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler, if he had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science, For one man of science, there are thousands who are not. What would have become of them? Man was destined for society. His morality, therefore, was to be formed to this object. He was endowed with the sense of right and wrong merely relative to this. This sense is as much a part of his nature, as the sense of hearing, seeing, feeling; it is the true foundation of morality... The moral sense, or conscience, is as much a part of man as his leg or arm. It is given to all human beings in a stronger or weaker degree, as force of members is given them in a greater or less degree. It may be strengthened by exercise, as may any particular limb of the body. This sense is submitted indeed in some degree to the guidance of reason; but it is a small stock which is required for this: even a less one than what we call Common sense. State a moral case to the ploughman and the professor. The former will decide it as well, and often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules." - Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1787.
How about this one: "How necessary was the care of the Creator in making the moral principle so much a part of our Constitution as that no errors of reasoning or of speculation might lead us astray from its observance in practice." -Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814.
And for all those who are so sure that Jefferson did not lean towards the Christian theology why was he always quoting phrases from the Bible? Who do you think he was refering to when he made this statement? "Our Savior... has taught us to judge the tree by its fruit, and to leave motives to Him who can alone see into them." - Thomas Jefferson to Martin Van Buren, 1824. Hmm?
Can we now be honest and agree that one need not have scientific proof to know for a fact that something is true? Can we at least admit that just because God may choose not to reveal Himself in a visual sense, doesn't mean He cannot make Himself known in another sense.
Just because Jefferson made the point to question everything, doesn't mean that he didn't come to the conclusion that God existed. He refers to God, and the Creator everywhere in his writings. He constantly refers to moral truth (the foundation for the Constitution), as coming from God. One of the hundreds of quotes by Jefferson once again refering to the Creator as the source who endowed us all with the understanding of moral truth (law): "He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler, if he had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science, For one man of science, there are thousands who are not. What would have become of them? Man was destined for society. His morality, therefore, was to be formed to this object. He was endowed with the sense of right and wrong merely relative to this. This sense is as much a part of his nature, as the sense of hearing, seeing, feeling; it is the true foundation of morality... The moral sense, or conscience, is as much a part of man as his leg or arm. It is given to all human beings in a stronger or weaker degree, as force of members is given them in a greater or less degree. It may be strengthened by exercise, as may any particular limb of the body. This sense is submitted indeed in some degree to the guidance of reason; but it is a small stock which is required for this: even a less one than what we call Common sense. State a moral case to the ploughman and the professor. The former will decide it as well, and often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules." - Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1787.
How about this one: "How necessary was the care of the Creator in making the moral principle so much a part of our Constitution as that no errors of reasoning or of speculation might lead us astray from its observance in practice." -Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814.
And for all those who are so sure that Jefferson did not lean towards the Christian theology why was he always quoting phrases from the Bible? Who do you think he was refering to when he made this statement? "Our Savior... has taught us to judge the tree by its fruit, and to leave motives to Him who can alone see into them." - Thomas Jefferson to Martin Van Buren, 1824. Hmm?
Can we now be honest and agree that one need not have scientific proof to know for a fact that something is true? Can we at least admit that just because God may choose not to reveal Himself in a visual sense, doesn't mean He cannot make Himself known in another sense.
No we don't agree.
I never claimed that one had to SEE something to believe it. In fact I used other examples of the scientific testing method (taste being one, spectroscopy, another) before your 'air' question.
If you were trying to get me to admit that you can know something for a fact without seeing it, you win - actually have admitted (known) that for as long as I remember.
You call it conscience, I call it inner dialogue. I have thoughts all day long. I contemplate many things. I decide if this is moral or not, ethical or not. It's a function of the brain that can also be observed using PET scans and other devices (I think it's main area of location is in the pre-frontal cortex?). This is probably one of those early evolving sciences and details will change over time as we get better detectors, etc... but the FACT remains - this is reproducible scientific evidence.
The brain is a funny machine. Malfunctions a lot, too. I can stimulate - electrically or otherwise - certain areas and make you BELIEVE there is another person standing in the room with you, you're hungry, have a mystical experience, etc... This brings up another debate on what is really real... Go read the differing philosophical views on this type of thing. But this is about Separation of Church and State and your claim of FACTS that are clearly not facts at all.
Short note for the Jefferson stuff...
Most (all) of your quotes come from PERSONAL correspondence between Jeff and others. I think it speaks volumes to the fact that a man with such seemingly strong PERSONAL beliefs in a god would be one of the driving forces (if not THE driving force) behind making sure our PUBLIC life was (is) governed by the Separation Clause.
I (and I don't think anyone else) asked you to prove a god exists VISUALLY. I and some others questioned your calling certain thoughts that are OBVIOUSLY personal beliefs, facts. You may be right about those beliefs as I have said before. You may also be wrong. And in the vein of this thread, those personal beliefs do not belong in any State sanctioned venue.
Let's call a fact a fact. However you want to prove it - just use real, reproducible evidence.
I never claimed that one had to SEE something to believe it. In fact I used other examples of the scientific testing method (taste being one, spectroscopy, another) before your 'air' question.
If you were trying to get me to admit that you can know something for a fact without seeing it, you win - actually have admitted (known) that for as long as I remember.
You call it conscience, I call it inner dialogue. I have thoughts all day long. I contemplate many things. I decide if this is moral or not, ethical or not. It's a function of the brain that can also be observed using PET scans and other devices (I think it's main area of location is in the pre-frontal cortex?). This is probably one of those early evolving sciences and details will change over time as we get better detectors, etc... but the FACT remains - this is reproducible scientific evidence.
The brain is a funny machine. Malfunctions a lot, too. I can stimulate - electrically or otherwise - certain areas and make you BELIEVE there is another person standing in the room with you, you're hungry, have a mystical experience, etc... This brings up another debate on what is really real... Go read the differing philosophical views on this type of thing. But this is about Separation of Church and State and your claim of FACTS that are clearly not facts at all.
Short note for the Jefferson stuff...
Most (all) of your quotes come from PERSONAL correspondence between Jeff and others. I think it speaks volumes to the fact that a man with such seemingly strong PERSONAL beliefs in a god would be one of the driving forces (if not THE driving force) behind making sure our PUBLIC life was (is) governed by the Separation Clause.
I (and I don't think anyone else) asked you to prove a god exists VISUALLY. I and some others questioned your calling certain thoughts that are OBVIOUSLY personal beliefs, facts. You may be right about those beliefs as I have said before. You may also be wrong. And in the vein of this thread, those personal beliefs do not belong in any State sanctioned venue.
Let's call a fact a fact. However you want to prove it - just use real, reproducible evidence.
RacerX
Old Rhapsody User
Fine, walk out side while the sun is out and look up, if you see the stars and blackness of space then there is no air, if you see a blue sky the you are seeing air. You argument show only that you are grasping at straws (and several post pointed this out).
Again with the victory out of nothing. I noticing a trend here, you are going to assume you've made a point even if you haven't (this is starting to become very clear as I reread your previous post).
True, there is NO evidence that I exist, or that I exist here, or that here is real (given that you can not be sure of anything outside of your own thoughts). All I have are logical causal relations between events. That is in fact my only standard for dealing with the universe around me. I live in a causal universe (a universe of cause and effect), and my only measuring stick for God is and effect without a cause (because the cause of that effect would be God).
I never said he didn't come to the conclusion that God exist, and that is very important here. I have NEVER need my beliefs and those of Jefferson's to match. I pointed out that in his opinion every man (and woman) should reach their beliefs by questioning them first. And that we should NEVER let someone run us over with "Facts" without calling for the proof of those "Facts". I would point out that Jefferson spoke TO his audience, and speaking to them in a form that they could relate to doesn't mean that he was a believer on their beliefs. If we held you to that same standard we could quote you into being a scientist (if we took small enough quotes).
Maybe I missed something here, where did we ask for scientific proof? I only require the same proof that you would be required to provide in a court of law. You can in with statements of "Fact" and have yet to show any of us that these "Facts" are anything other than opinions. Let us revisit your original statements, shall we:
These statements started this. I have yet to see the proof of the "Fact" that God (or any other deity) lives. Or that said God is good. Or that said God inspires truth. Or that said God is infact the Creator who endowed us (or just some general creator). and so on. Actually the only thing that rings of Fact is your last statement. You made some very strong statements, we asked for you to back them up. If you had replaced "Fact" with "I Believe", your first post could have been the last in this thread. Throwing the term "Fact" out there ask all of us to examine your facts. Not to share with us that which has made it a "Fact" that "God lives" is a crime. All we ask for is that you give us the same mastery of the "Facts" that you proclaimed to have in the beginning. I still feel that if you are able to proclaim these are "Fact" you should be ready to back them up.
yeah. hope so too. I didn't think I was being mean or anything. Hopefully he just got bored with saying the same thing over and over; I just checked for other posts from him as well - none. Maybe he just stumbled upon the church thing during a search...
Or...maybe....it was your alter-ego just keeping things interesting
RacerX was known for his secrets after all...
Now let's talk about The Mammoth Car. Still can't remember how the powerful Mach 5 was able to defeat that behemoth.
Or...maybe....it was your alter-ego just keeping things interesting
RacerX was known for his secrets after all...
Now let's talk about The Mammoth Car. Still can't remember how the powerful Mach 5 was able to defeat that behemoth.