Should I stay or leave? (trolls or no trolls?)

who should go?

  • Ed goes

  • the trolls go - make no trolling a site policy!!

Results are only viewable after voting.
I would hate to see Ed go. He is very moderate and can keep the most incendiary threads from going haywire, responds to everyones posts, keeps old favorites alive in perpetuam, and defuses those really tense hostile arguments.

He is a good moderator. We need him.

However, i am not ready to say get rid of the trolls. If anything, i would like this board to become less controlling, less military, with more freedom.

So both choices are unacceptable to me. i do not vote. it may be a moot question for me soon. we ll see.
 
The problem with the REAL trolls isn't that they give us unbiased opinions and/or let us see the mistakes we make by supporting Apple... This is false! If one hates Apple he just posts ONCE and only ONCE his opinion (in the correct forum too) and not repeat post after post the same things:
1.Apple sucks
2.Apple's supporters suck
3.Apple's hardware/software sucks
4.Wintel/Amd rocks
5.Linux rocks
6.Repeat the above

Wither the trolls are correct or not about the things they post, they simply DON'T belong anywhere near the www.macosx.com because they are repeating the brainwashing over and over! And you know what? 99% of their opinions are biased too... They are just coming from the Dark Side of the Force...

As for Apple supporters having bad feelings/opinions about the company they love the most, that's fine as long as they keep it real: If one doesn't like Ferrari's cars, does that make Ferrari a company that sucks? Or if one doesn't like Cameron Diaz, does that make him gay or Diaz ugly? Nope!

We live in a world with so many opinions which reminds me this:
"Opinions are like a$$holes... Everyone has one!"
So for those who feel like Apple is becoming the next M$ or that simply Apple sucks, back off, because we (the real MacFellas) have LOTS of other things to discuss, like... After Jaguar and Dual G4/1.25 what's gives?

As for Ed, he is AWESOME, which means he handles things ok! Here is an advice that I feel that he needs right now: If one person, one team, one nation in general, lets the bad guys take control we, the other non-qualified for battle, are doomed! When the times and places become too dark for the majority of people to handle things, sometimes one can make the difference by ONLY one move: Fight back instead of holding back... So, Ed, Admiral, Admin, et al, fight the good fight because as I see it, many people have lost their Apple way :D so someone must put them back on the Apple track :D
 
Ed, you just have to stay.

There are a lot of trolls roaming the board who are certainly fit for "termination", but we all need to watch out. It seems that recently this place has become hostile, to the point where that any person that dissents or "complains" about an Apple product, is a "troll."

Apple is a company, which i feel no allegiance to. I don't have to cut them any slack. They're going to have to fight for my money, by providing me with the qualitiy of products that I desire. I feel like this is no longer an accepted opinion on this board, and that must be "loyal" to Apple, nd continue to "support them."

The last thing I want this forum to become is a one-dimensional homogenous group of mac zealots who are not willing to compare PC's and Macs, or discuss the true speed/value of a product.

Ed, hope you feel better about the mod duties, its hard, tedious work.

And please, get rid of the trolls, but allow for respectful dissent.
 
To get a better perspective of what a Troll is, read on my friends...


From http://www.gnofn.org/~tlewis/glossary.htm#TROLL

Troll
A person who posts only to inflame opinion is "trolling for flames". Most are so obvious that only the most clueless "newbies" respond.

From http://www.altairiv.demon.co.uk/troll/trollfaq.html (This goes into great detail)

Section 1: What Is A Troll?

The WWW gives this as a definition:

troll v.,n. To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies"; which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling";, a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it.

The following extract is from a broader expansion of the defining comments given above:

In Usenet usage, a "troll" is not a grumpy monster that lives beneath a bridge accosting passers-by, but rather a provocative posting to a newsgroup intended to produce a large volume of frivolous responses. The content of a "troll" posting generally falls into several areas. It may consist of an apparently foolish contradiction of common knowledge, a deliberately offensive insult to the readers of a newsgroup, or a broad request for trivial follow-up postings. There are three reasons why people troll newsgroups:

People post such messages to get attention, to disrupt newsgroups, and simply to make trouble.

Career trollers tend for the latter two whilst the former is the mark of the clueless newbie and should be ignored.

This continues....click here to read more (http://www.altairiv.demon.co.uk/troll/trollfaq.html).

From http://www.cgocable.net/~jrussel/netdefn.htm

Trolls
Trolls are little buggers who pester people. They sign on to mailing lists only long enough to learn who is on and what issues trigger their rage buttons. They then proceed to push these buttons and sit back and watch. They are looking for endless streams of messages of outrage, messages asking for someone to police the situation, messages of people asking for restraint, and in the end of a successful trolling operation, litanies of how other instances of trollings and the dreaded history of trolling from the first days of the Internet. The best solution is silence. Dead space is like a lack of oxygen to a troll. They quickly move on to another list and are not missed.

BAN THE TROLLS!

In my opinion, TROLLING constitutes an intellectual crime of wasting the time of members of the board. Life is too short to be pissed-off about frivilous drabble. It's time to get rid of the riff-raff of the community. Keep in mind that TROLLING is different from expressing an opinion.
 
ok, after getting some sleep i'll admit this was probably a bit of a melodramatic way to address the issue, which isn't really about me per se. it is about trolls and site policy regarding trolling. the real question here is should we allow trolls? and i am talking about the types just defined so well in chemistry_geek's post. this is the issue. it is just that i will let go of my duties if the members here decide that allowing trolls is an important thing. right now people seem to prefer getting rid of them by about 3 to 1.

to reiterate - i am not talking about the need for a homogenous bunch of glazed eyed mac fanatics. i am not talking about the desire to censure those who have complaints. i'm not talking about members who make legitimate contributions to this site in tech forums. I'm talking about the trolls who come to this forum and the opinion forum and have nothing but arguments to add to most any conversation. You know, the ones who never offer any help to others and yet sit in this forum and act all high and mighty about how much more they know than the rest of us. They are a very small number of people who create a huge amount of attention for themselves while offereing nothing of any real value to this community.

i have been a strong advocate of allowing free speech on this site. i realize that this current position might seem out of synch with that. I can only say that my experience in being a moderator has given me a new perspective on what is free speech and what is abusive flame baiting.

serpicolugnut - not to worry. you're not on the troll list. i know you aren't always 'gleeful' about things and have no problem expressing that. i may not agree with you much of the time, but i respect the mature way in which you normally express yourself and the fact that you are seen contributing around this site and help others - you're not just here to blow your horn.

someone said trolls are a fact of life. that may be true, but there are other forums where they are not allowed at all and the signal to noise ratio on these sites is much higher than we are currently experiencing at macosx.com. there are plenty of outlets for trolls. this doesn't have to be one of them.

and it doesn't matter if it's me or someone else who has to deal with them. they will still be the same problem to whoever moderates . For all of you who think this is overstating the issue, i invite you to spend the next few days reading every word of every post in this forum. see how long it takes. see how much of it is the same crap said in diffferent ways by the same few trolls. see how you start to feel after the experience.

of course i also believe that the answer suggested above - that we all start ignoring them and they will just go away on their own is a very good one. if we stop biting their bait, they will move to a new fishing hole and this will be a mute point.

oh, and thanks to all for your kind words about me. it is great to see people i don't recognise come out of the woodwork and voice their opinions on this. and also to see the people i do know speak so candidly about the issue, even when they think the issue of free speech is more important than who moderates. I respect that very much. thanks to all who have spoken here and TIA to all who will add to this.
 
Don't let the Trolls get to you Ed...

I haven't been posting much recently mainly because I too have been sick of the negative vibe. This is not enough to push me away, but it did subdue me alittle.

I like the post chemistry_geek posted..informative. From this I gathered a very simple solution to rid our site of Trolls....
**pause for drum roll**
The answer is: JUST IGNORE THEM.

This is a hard task. I didn't say this was an easy solution, just a simple one. All you have to do is not post a message rebutting the obvious flame. If the thread is about fixing a video card from crashing and a Troll throws in a "video card doesn't work because Apple sux", just reply to the thread and respond to the previous post before the flame like it never was there.

I have done this on other boards and found that you can actually continue a good thread by just ignoring the bad seeds. They may continue to throw flames into the thread, but eventually they will cross the line and you will feel better when you ban them and will not be concerned about 'over-moderating'.

Basically the Trolls will ban themselves by trying harder to get your attention. Some Trolls may learn that this is inappropriate behavior and stop the flaming. Some will become more evil and will stand out of the crowd; which makes it easy for the crowd to tar and feather.:D
 
My apologies to anyone experiencing wierd formatting problems with this page earlier today. When I posted my last comment, Mozilla's "pref.js" file had somehow become corrupted, resulting in very strange effects. Slashdot was also affected by this glitch, and they were not too kind about the affected post; they pounced on it.

Hmm...something I could probably let the Mozilla team know about.
 
i was wondering about that niles. it was right the first time i saw it and then it was filled with space dilineaters. i wasn't sure if it was something you did for effect or somebody hacking your post or what. glad you figured it out and explained it to us. and fixed it:p
 
in part responding to the definition of a well constructed troll as stated a few posts earlier; I think the problem is only partially the trolls, but equally if not more so the flamers. Without flamers the trolls have no fun and seldom stay long. With this board growing like it has, many people here are newbies in one form or another, and act accordingly. They may be well meaning, but they are chum for the trolls.

Ed, I have already left, and come back. A lot of this board is depressing to me now, as it is such a large, convoluted version of what it once was. What brought me back was the old crew, you specifically being one of the major players. If you were to go, I would too. I'm not sure which I prefer. It's like going to see old friends in a bar that you no longer like.

I actually want the admin to do more crazy crap like he did, shutting down the board for a day. Let those who lack perseverance go away. I think flaming needs to stop. I'd like an informal rule of no more than 3 posts for every 20 in a thread. If you feel you need to say more than that, you probably talk too much. (exceptions for the thread starter perhaps)

In a room full of smart people, it is important to listen more than you speak.

Ed, I miss you already. Your leaving of this board or of your admin position is irrelevant to me. All the best to you at any rate.

- ED.
 
Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
i was wondering about that niles. it was right the first time i saw it and then it was filled with space dilineaters. i wasn't sure if it was something you did for effect or somebody hacking your post or what. glad you figured it out and explained it to us. and fixed it:p
Click to expand...

I knew something was wrong when I went to edit my post and Mozilla inserted the "|" character where spaces were supposed to be. Also, some web pages were not rendered correctly, and or course, at Slashdot there were no spaces between the words I posted. Slashdot gave me a "Score: 0, Troll" moderation, with someone commenting "IthinkIseeyourproblem".
 
*WARNING -- This is an opinion!*
Absolutely, positively, unquestionably, indisputably: Ban The Trolls.

Ed - cool, calm, rational, open minded, intelligent, kind - is induced to think, for however long, about leaving his position? Enough said.

Is there a purpose to this site? This is, or used to be, a place to escape the drudgery of the PC world that surrounds us and connect to other mac-loving people that, due to our being small-in-number, we wouldn't be able to connect with without the power of the internet and the generosity of this site's owner and the moderators.

It is also a place to ask for help, for those of us who can't afford a $40 technical support call (;)), and give help when we can.

It is a place to post news, offer inside info on rumors, maybe, and share cool toys/tools/ideas that we have.

Rants sometimes have their place -- sometimes you just wanna relieve some pressure, vent your anger or check your sanity with people who can sympathize, offer a second viewpoint or listen without laughing (too much!).

Trolling has no place here. It has no part in our purpose. Without any boundaries, limits or purpose the site turns to chaos. One word: Entropy.

Ed, of all the members of this forum I can't think of anybody who could more capably and fairly weed out trolls. And MacOSX.com needs some weeding.

Ed, perhaps a "Rant" section would give honest (infrequent!) ranters a place to vent without appearing trollish? Or maybe even a "The Great Debate" forum for those who enjoy debating the merits of Mac's vs PC's with 'the outsiders'?

Bottom line: Second opinion? Another viewpoint? Since when did a Mac user need to step further than two feet from his/her desk to find a 'qualified' second opinion on the Mac Platform? I thought we came here to get away from the Great Debate and just enjoy our Mac's for a small part of our day. It's not suppression or denial, it's a 10 minute vacation, everyday, courtesy of MacOSX.com.
 
Ed, let me know if you go, because then I will have to go. Your opinions are one of the reasons why I've stuck around a forum like this one. I think if you really want to go, we could start our own forum(s) and the people who want you to stay can join our new forum! -Ryan :)
 
Many years ago when I was BBSing (late high school & early college years), there was one BBS where all the Geeks hung out, aside from a few hundred other members. We had a secret little "Back Room" on the BBS that no one outside "the group" knew about. It was great! It was like secret club. Too bad we couldn't have that here. Who knows? Maybe it already exists here. It would be easy to set up with user logins & passwords, etc..., and some cryptic address that didn't have a link anywhere on the site. And of course, no one new could be included in "the group" unless all the members of "the group" approved of the new membership. It would be our little private discussion board. This could be nice for the people who were early neighbors in the community. This board has grown a lot in the year. I can say that I don't recognize approximately half of the posters now.
 
If you all have read my follow-up to my iTunes rants...you will see a part of it where I thank a moderator.

I thank that moderator for deciding to leave my posts. I also say that I knew he was right because I trusted his judgement.

That moderator was Ed.

It saddens me to think of coming here, and not having you here to moderate.

You make a difference here.

I remember when I first started posting here, I made the newbie mistake of posting a thread about iPhoto 1.1.1 being new. (It was a month old at that point.)

Ed and I talked about it, and about someone else who was trying to berate me.

He told me that my responses were very human, and that that was a good thing.

It seems to me that what you said applies to you as well, Ed.

You add a human touch to this forum.

You are an equalizer, an inspiration, a center.

If you decide to stop moderating, I will support your decision. We all will.

But don't expect us to enjoy it. :)

I hope that all of this rambling helps. I hope it shows you a small part of the difference that you make here.

We honor you, respect you, and trust you. Coming from a board as jaded as this one is, that says a lot.

In closing, all I can say is that I hope you arrive at a decision that makes you happy. As always, I trust your judgement. I know you will make the right decision. You usually do.

Best, Greg
 
Originally posted by uoba
PezAgent, is this a new you, one line posts and all:D
Click to expand...

Yeah, well, I told you guys I just needed to get some crap off my chest. Pretty soon I'll get bored and find something else to do with my time.
 
This is quite a pathetic thread and to think, it's coming from a Moderator no less.

The gist of it is this.

Ed: Please people, tell me what to do! I'm a grown adult and can't make decisions for myself. I need the praise and reassurance of 15 year olds to be able to go on in this sick sad world. Wo is me.

I'm sorry but how lame is this? If Ed can't figure out what to do without us holding his hand, maybe he should get the hell out of Dodge!

What the hell is going on around here? It's like f*cking euphoria. You people are being manipulated by those in charge yet you line up in droves like you can't get enough of it.
 
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