Supporting Macs

[FarmerPete]

Looking at the Mac Mini vs the iMac Core Duo (The 17in one), do you think it would be better or worse to go for one rather than the other? I was thinking I'd get the Mac mini cause it's significantly cheaper. But my fear is that if I get the cheaper/less capable one that I wont really use it THAT much. Right now my secondary PC is a 3ghz P4. I don't think I could "replace" that in my mind with a Mac Mini. If I went with an iMac I think I could junk that and use the Mac a lot more. I HAVE the money to spend on the iMac, but then I never like spending money, and the proposition of spending $1300 to get something that doesn't do anything my current system can't do is kind of silly.

Speaking of Unix, would using OS X give you much experience with Unix? I haven't done much with any of the *nix OS's and getting a little more knowledge would always help (although it wouldn't help in my job at all, I'm sure it could help for future jobs)

 

[fryke]

You don't have to replace your 3 GHz PC with a Mac mini. You'd need the Mac mini in order to learn about the Mac. For that, it's certainly good enough. I'd consider an iBook, too, because then it gives you an additional value (mobility) and you might find some uses for the iBook that your desktop PC just can't match (working on a train, in the park etc.). The iBooks are not _that_ expensive and are great value. Keep in mind that new ones with intel processors might come out in the coming two months, though.

About the books: Anything to get you started. The Missing Manuals _are_ good starting points. Really: Go read into some at a local book stores. Then buy one that's not too expensive but seems to have enough info to keep you at it for a while.

But I agree: Without access to a Mac, you won't be able to thoroughly explain to a user what he should or should not do. Your wording would be wrong, you'd have assumptions that would prove wrong in reality etc. There's no way around it, really.

 

[FarmerPete]

Heh, I have a 2.8ghz P4 notebook. It's almost 2.5yrs old, but it works great. Except it doesn't really like not being plugged in. I bought it so I would have a portable desktop, not a travel companion. I think new it would get ~1hr on battery playing a DVD. The thing litterally has a desktop processor in it.

 

[nixgeek]

Ugh...as much as I don't like those desktop replacements, my wife is looking to get one since it would basically be just that. And yes, she's a Windows user. Personally, I would probably get something like a MacBook Pro or another x86 laptop that's using the Intel Core Duo CPU for Linux.

 

[Mikuro]

The iMac is certainly far superior to the Mac Mini. There are really only three reasons you might want a Mini instead:
1. Price, obviously.
2. You really want a PPC processor (it might be more relevant for current support issues....then again, it's bound to become obsolete sooner).
3. You hate hate hate all-in-one designs (as I do).

The iMac provides much more bang for your buck. It's waaaaaay faster, and has a more capable video card that supports Core Image. The only real problem is that it's Intel-based and thus most software doesn't run natively, if it runs at all (this is bound to change with time).


As for learning Unix with OS X, you don't need to, but I think you could. You have to go out of your way to expose yourself to the command line or find a real use for it. But if you love to tinker, it's all there.

But if you really want to learn Unix for the sake of learning Unix (I only know Unix for the sake of tinkering with OS X), you could always install some Linux distro on either your PC or your new Mac.

 

[nixgeek]

You can also use QEMU and set up a virtual machine on your Windows PC or whatever Mac you decide to use in order to play around with UNIX itself. For the Mac, I recommend downloading Q which is a Cocoa port of QEMU with a nice interface.

 

[FarmerPete]

Desktop replacement laptops have a place. I used mine for school. I needed something that had a lot of muscle for doing programing/designing/graphics type stuff, but I also wanted something that I could play games on. (I had 3 hours of downtime between classes for a year, and I had an hour commute. Having a laptop with what was then the 2nd best video card (9600pro 128mb) a great processor (2.8ghz P4 with 800mhz FSB and HT), and fast ram (Dual channel DDR400) was really nice for the year that I used it as my primary machine. I still use it a lot now, but not as much as I used to. It was great because I never needed to use it on battery power. I just needed to find a desk where I could plug it in. There were tons of them around the campus. But if I ever want to use it in a Car, I don't think I can even use a power inverter cause it sucks so much power, (Standard inverters don't go up very high in power output unless you have a direct line connection to the battery).

I wish there was a good intel based Mac that had a system architecture like a standard PC. None of this integrated junk that they are passing. I'm sure the reason they did the iMac and Laptop first comes down to drivers. But the thing that scares me the most is that they could come out with their tower system and the price tag is 2k which I don't want to spend.

 

[JflipB]

FarmerPete:

I'm trying to stifle my laughter at your previous post (about 99% of games being written for Mac and Apple opening its hardware....ahh good stuff).

As long as Macs remain a "niche" market, games will never catch up with the Windows world.

In the past, under the evil emperor Gil Amelio's reign of Apple computer, they tried to open up the hardware to other vendors and it failed miserably. Arguably it could be because at the time Apple wasn't doing anything that was worth copying or because Gil didn't really care about Apple, but Steve Jobs quickly put an end to the Apple clones as soon as he took the helm back and got rid of Gil.

Before you buy books and research away, maybe you should investigate the "culture" of Apple. This is why people are drawn to these things (including me).

Talk with the Mac users in your company, understand their passion for it. If you really listen to them with an open mind, you might surprise yourself.

There's nothing wrong with being computer "bilingual". Buy a Mac AND run your PC programs (ever heard of Citrix or Remote Desktop?).

Lastly, the only way you're going to be able to expertly support a Mac is to use one yourself. Until that happens, you're Mac users will not respect you.

--JflipB
(I work in Information Security for a large company whose Marketing department is Mac-centric. I've "fought the fight" for years with them concerning support. I use a PC at work and a Mac at home; each has their place depending on the use, but I'm much happier with my Mac at home).

 

[jwoods]

FarmerPete, I see people making recommendations and you continuously finding reasons against what they are saying (But I....My P4....etc.). Believe me, I completely understand you wanting to get the knowledge you say you need on the cheap.

Not to be rude, but either you want to learn the system or you don't. If you constantly have to justify how great your PC is compared to a Mac, then move on. You obviously do not want to get the information you need to support them.

Unfortunately, there is no magic book that will teach you what you are wanting to know. You are going to have to get your hands dirty. It's that plain and simple. The Macmini is the cheapest Mac Apple makes - it might very well be your best option.

I don't know how else to put this.....sorry. Just seems like you asked a couple of questions and then went to great lengths to counter-argue against why that's an option.

 

[Mikuro]

He stated right off the bat that he intended to get a Mac. Ideally, he wants a Mac he can justify using instead of his beefy PC for at least some tasks. Not unreasonable. But there's been some off-topic discussion here.

One more point in favor of the new iMac is that, in theory, it will be able to double as a Windows PC once Vista is released (currently there's no good way to get XP running on it). That might be a huge advantage for you. Just thought I'd throw the info out there.

The iMac is a great system, but possibly more than you need. The Mac Mini is looking awfully outdated at this point, but hey, it's what I use every day, and I'm not complaining. Then again, I haven't bought a high-end system since '97, so our standards are probably different.

It's also worth mentioning that the Mac Mini will also be moving to Intel this year. I'm guessing it will be released in March-April, but that's just a guess.

 

[RacerX]

I'm planning on going and buying myself either a MacMini or one of the new iMacs so I can learn to use it, and eventually support it. I don't have a great fondness for Macs, and my primary machine will probably be a PC for a long time. (I currently have 2 PC's I use, 1 for gaming, and another next to it for doing multitasking stuff that I believe just about any Mac should be able to do.)

Well, honestly, with that statement you've pretty much locked yourself out of Mac support.

Supporting a platform means immersing yourself in it to the point of understanding the ins and outs of the systems... and you've basically stated that you aren't willing to do that.

Anyone have any suggestions? Since I am looking to "Support" macs more than just use them, I was hoping that there might be a more specific book out there.

If you aren't willing to learn how to use them, then you aren't willing to learn how to support them.

I know that the insides of most Macs are hands-off, (an issue that I am quite honestly a little pissed about)...

Since when? The only Macs that are truly hands-off are PowerBooks and iBooks that are still under warranty. I've been servicing Apple computers (including hardware issues) since 2000. I've been working inside of Macs since I started owning them (late 80's).

You are starting with a major prejudice against Macs and a lot of misconceptions. Even worse, you don't seem to want to put any effort into this. Before looking for a book, you might want to deal with these self-improvement issues first.


From my personal experiences of learning other platforms, you are setting out in the wrong direction. When I wanted to learn about Sun Microsystems computers, I didn't buy one of their current systems... I bought a older system that I could get my hands dirty with. In fact, my first Sun and SGI came to me as nonfunctioning units... which I was able to get up and running applying my hardware experience and learning what it took to install and use their respective operating systems. And if you think finding books and documentation on Apple computers is hard, try hunting down stuff on Sun and SGI systems.

But I was willing to do what ever it took to make those environments as natural a place to work in as Macs are for me. When you are able to get past the issues you've been displaying in this thread, and are willing to apply the same efforts you put into learning PCs, you'll be in a good position to learn Macs.

But you'll never find that magic 10% of what you need to support Macs if you can't use them yourself... because using a system is how you figure out what that 10% actually is.

 

[Tommo]

I fully agree with RacerX, the only way you will get used to Macs is to use them, not just a little but a lot. Also leave the prejudices at the door before you start.

I have the joy that is providing support to end users on a large network, which like yours is majority PC but with around 50-60 Macs of various descriptions. Before this I was a PC user solely for many years. If you try to learn on a Mac by just using it when you get time you end up never using it. I forced myself to use it as my primary system, using remote desktop to get into to my PC only for stuff I couldn't do on the Mac, that way I learned a lot more a lot quicker.

Is my Mac better than my PC ? No, but it is no worse either there are somethings which are better/easier on a Mac and somethings which I still switch to the PC for. It is, for the moment at least, a lot more secure.

Equally I would say, going back to an off track point, is my Xbox 360 better than my PC. Yes by virtue of it being much cheaper and needing no upgrades until the end of its production cycle. I always swore I would never own a console being a PC gamer from the early days, and while fully agreeing that FPS game are a nightmare on a console I don't have to throw money at it every year to keep up. When I switched to the original Xbox I had a choice, new graphics card for the PC £200 or Xbox £100, economics won, but then most of the games I wanted were available on both platforms.

 

[FarmerPete]

This is great. When I came in here I was fully intending on buying a Mac and using it a lot. Thats part of why I don't know which system to get. I don't think I truly need to get the iMac just to learn Macs, but the Mac Mini is a certain downgrade from what I want to replace in my current setup. While you may find some of my counter arguments as if I am resisting macs, I am just stating why some things are not a very good option for me. Someone suggested I get a PowerBook, and I said that I already have a laptop that is more than adequate, I don't really need another one. This is a very valid argument in my decision of which Mac to get. I am not looking for a magic pill that will teach me about Macs. I know it will take using them. I just thought instead of throwing myself into a world that I don't understand and being 100% alone, I would invest another $25 on a book that could help me. When I learned C++ I didn't try to do it on my own. I went out and bought a book. But since I already knew other programing languages, I found a C++ book that showed more of the context than the logic. I didn't need a C++ book that was aimed at people who didn't know how to program at all. Getting the more specialized book saved me a lot of time and reading. I had hoped that there was a similar scenario with books on Macs. Since I wasn't able to find one myself, I figured I would ask a group of people that might know of one. Apparently such a book does not exist.

 

[Lt Major Burns]

Books exist. you could buy an 'OS X for Dummies' book and that will help you, but generally, this site will do all of that and more. if you have any questions, ask them on here, or search for the answers within his site. the path you are looking to walk is a well trodden path, and there are many helpful and intelligent guides here keen to help you along the way. i have not read any "how to use a mac" books, but in less than 6 months, this site has changed me from being a 'noob' to knowing more about macs than i know about windows. which is a lot.

 

[RacerX]

Someone suggested I get a PowerBook, and I said that I already have a laptop that is more than adequate, I don't really need another one.

Really? So you're saying that the laptop you have is adequate for learning to support Macs?

Someone who says that they want to support Macs isn't going to gain any experience with a system sitting in the corner in their home.

If you are really looking to learn, a PowerBook or iBook would be ideal for you. It would be a system that you could take with you to learn on in your spare time... and better yet, a system that you could connect to the network at work to see how to actually solve the issues that the people you'll be supporting are going to run into.

Personally, the $500 to $1200+ that you are planning on spending on a Mac is more money than I have spent on any of my systems. If I was in your place I would buy a used iBook for under $400 and an old PowerMac G4 for under $200. The iBook would be great for testing things at work and getting used to the environment and the PowerMac is an easy system to break down, put back together and experiment with.

I just thought instead of throwing myself into a world that I don't understand and being 100% alone, I would invest another $25 on a book that could help me. When I learned C++ I didn't try to do it on my own. I went out and bought a book. But since I already knew other programing languages, I found a C++ book that showed more of the context than the logic. I didn't need a C++ book that was aimed at people who didn't know how to program at all. Getting the more specialized book saved me a lot of time and reading. I had hoped that there was a similar scenario with books on Macs. Since I wasn't able to find one myself, I figured I would ask a group of people that might know of one. Apparently such a book does not exist.

There are plenty of books out there... I have hardware service manuals, developer notes and user guides on systems going back into the 80's. I have operating system references for just about every version of the Mac OS ever made. I even have the original (flawed) troubleshooting guide that Apple gave out to it's internal support personal for Mac OS X when it was first released.

And what did all that cost? $0.00

... well, except for the cost of printing and binding some of the materials at Kinko's.

There is nothing stopping you from getting any of this stuff... except for your need for a "magic pill" solution. You'll spend more money and learn less following the path you've set for yourself.

In the PC world, the answers are always right there. PC support people are a dime a dozen.

I come from a research background in mathematics. In the area I was working in there weren't any text books, there weren't any classes, it was new mathematics that I was learning and using to create new mathematics at the same time. In that environment, there are no safety nets. You can't ask for help and the answers are never in the back of the book.

When it comes to computers, I like mine like I like my mathematics... as far from the norm as possible. I use Macs because they are frontier computing, I use Rhapsody, OPENSTEP, IRIX and Solaris because they are even more fringe than Macs (sometimes the Mac community is a little crowded for me).


It looks like you are looking for easy answers. The problem is, even if you get them... you won't actually get them. I could point you in the direction of a wealth of knowledge on Macs... but you wouldn't be willing to put in the effort to actually learn the stuff, so why should I waste the time to show you?

The reason I come to boards like this one is not to ask questions (I don't think I've ever asked a Mac question in a post)... I'm here to practice helping support people and to see what types of support issues are popping up with Macs in general.

You want to learn how to support Macs? You could start by looking at posts that are made here and trying to figure out what the solution to people's problems might be. Odds are that the requests for help you see here are going to be very similar to what you would see in the field.

You can't find that type of thing in a book.

 

[jwoods]

This is great. When I came in here I was fully intending on buying a Mac and using it a lot. Thats part of why I don't know which system to get. I don't think I truly need to get the iMac just to learn Macs, but the Mac Mini is a certain downgrade from what I want to replace in my current setup.

ANY Mac will let you get your hands dirty. If you are running high end notebooks and desktops, everything is going to seem to be a "downgrade" from what you are currently running. Sorry, Macs just are not as fast as the PC machines.

The older stuff can be picked up on the cheap, but it won't be near as fast as the new stuff.

The new stuff is the fastest they make, at the moment. Grab a 20" iMac, upgrade the RAM and the VRAM and get cracking. You'll have a great machine with a very nice display on it. If you don't like it, or decide not to pursue this path, you can sell it for a pretty good price later on. (Probably).

I honestly don't see how you can learn what you want to learn without actually using a Mac indepth. Books will help to an extent and prior knowledge of *nix based systems could be a plus, but you still have to get your hands dirty.

 

[nixgeek]

OK, this looks like it's getting a little out of hand.

I agree with what everyone is saying here. However, I will reiterate again FarmerPete: YOU DON'T HAVE TO REPLACE YOUR PC!!!!

Make the Mac (whichever one you get...doesn't matter since OS X is OS X and you're looking to support OS X at the moment...the only difference would be performance and with enough RAM that's not a big issue) a part of your setup. I own 2 PCs and 3 Macs. One of which is running Windows, the other oneis dual booting Windows and Linux. I also have my iMac G5 (which would have been a mini if I didn't have enough money at the time for an iMac) running Tiger, a Quadra 650 running System 7.6.1, and an older PowerBook Duo running System 7.1 for the kids to play simple games on. I also had the StarMax I told you about which dual-booted OS 9.1 and Debian/ppc. Sure, I eventually got rid of the machines that made my setup a little redundant (no need for the StarMax anymore since the iMac is a PPC machine as well), but I have everything covered for the most part when it comes to supporting systems.

This doesn't mean that I don't use any of them anymore. I could be working on GarageBand on the iMac while I surf the web and chat on my Linux PC. I might even decide to use the Windows PC in the living room so that I'm not locked up in a room away from my family. Your PC can remain your main machine, and you can incorporate the Mac (again, whichever one you purchase) into your computer use. This way you can still play your high end games and learn how to use and support Mac OS X and your Mac system at the same time.

Again, you're failing to understand that reading a few books with some simple answers isn't going to solve your problem. I didn't learn how to use Linux and all the other operating systems I know by reading a book. I found myself a system, did the OS installation, used it, broke the OS, reinstalled, and so on. That is the ONLY way you can learn how to TRULY support a system platform. You can take it or leave it, but there's no way around it.

 

[FarmerPete]

I swear I must be speaking Greek or something. I say what I'm looking for and what I want to do and I get a bunch of replies that totally ignore it, down talk to me like I'm an idiot, and then tell me the "RIGHT" way to do things which is pretty much what I said I wanted to do in the first place. I want to buy a #$!( Mac. I said that in post #1. I wasn't sure about which to get, and I still am not sure. For the love of God, I just wanted a book recommendation. You guys do know about books, right? These things people read to give them knowledge? I could spend 1000 hours infront of a Mac, think I know the vast majority of what I need to know, but since I don't know what I don't know, I wouldn't know that I didn't know it. Thats where a book comes in. Every book I've looked at looks like it's designed for people who fit in one of the following catagories 1) Never touched a PC/Mac in their life. 2) Never fully understood PC's and thus are frustrated and going to Macs. I do not fit into either of those catagories. I figured that there must be a 3rd catagory of books that I just can't find. 3) People who know PC's well, but they want to give Macs a chance.

I'm sure many of you don't like me and never will since I wont say that Mac's are the best thing since sliced bread and Microsoft can go suck-it. Did my crack on iPods piss a few of you off that spent $300 on your favorite possession of all times? I just don't get why you guys can't accept what I'm trying to do. I'm not looking for easy answers or to cheat my way through things. I just find the entire prospect of buying a $1300 machine and having no clue what I'm doing as a bad one. I thought a learning instrument such as a book (and or website as I posted in Post #1) would be a step in the right direction to help me learn to use a Mac. I guess that was the dumb thing to do. Reading books = Dumb. Best to just jump into the pool and if you drown, who cares.

P.S. Yes, a laptop would be a bad idea. 1) Because it would be slower and I wouldn't be able to replace a computer that I use every day with it. Thus using it would be more of a chore than a learning experience. 2) Because I couldn't plug it into my work's network due to restrictions by my employeer. 3) Because I already have a notebook that I can use for remote computing.

P.P.S. Yes, I would have to replace "A" PC. I have 2 PC's that I use on a regular basis. They are right next to each other. PC2 and PC3 (server) are hooked up to a KVM. I also have a Laptop that I use. If I get a Mac, if it doesn't use PS2 I will have to switch the KVM to my main computer's monitor/accessories. Thus I couldn't use my PC2 at the same time as my PC1. Thus PC2 would be replaced. PC1 is not going anywhere any time soon.

 

[RacerX]

I'm sure many of you don't like me and never will since I wont say that Mac's are the best thing since sliced bread and Microsoft can go suck-it. Did my crack on iPods piss a few of you off that spent $300 on your favorite possession of all times?

Why would that matter? I use a number of platforms, and I feel no need to say that one is better than another. When I'm posting in an SGI forum, I'm not sitting there saying Macs are better any more than I'm sitting here saying SGIs are better.

But these are the self improvement issues that you need to work on. You've been given very sound advice, and are now upset about it. You want to be viewed as competent... an expert in your field, but anyone can be an expert in the PC world. All the information is right there... everywhere. That comes from being the dominant platform, information on that platform is available to anyone. And anyone can seem like an expert by only knowing 10% of what is needed to be known... like you.

When it comes to service and support, Macs are the first step into a different type of troubleshooting. You are asking how to prepare to support Macs... Macs have a limited place in the world, and solutions aren't going to be handed to you.

Now, you can't seem to handle the fact that this is what we are preparing you for... and honestly, that shows you really don't have the temperament for this type of work.

At this point, I strongly suggest that you stick with PCs. You don't seem to be able to solve the simple task of researching what is needed to support a different platform, so I really don't see how you can hope to troubleshoot problems within that platform.

Hey, Macs aren't for everyone. I support over a hundred systems, most of the time I never hear from clients, but when I do, the solutions to their problems are never in a book. The solution usually requires intimate knowledge of the system... knowledge you are unable (or unwilling) to acquire.


You seem to think that you are good with PCs... you should stick with what you think you are good at.




Oh, and I don't own an iPod... nor would I pay $300 for one.

But it was interesting (and telling about you) that you think that making those types of comments in this forum would help your case.

We never needed to know your likes or dislikes, but you went out of your way to push them. That was what I meant by having self improvement issues. Obviously you have never read How to Make Friends and Influence People.

 

[fryke]

Okay. Let's break it down again. You need a book. Several have been mentioned in this thread by our helpful members, as well as the tip of going to a store and looking at some.

Then: You need a desktop Mac, since you've said that a notebook won't do. It should replace one of your PCs. Okay, then. You want some oomph, right. Okay: Get a used PowerMac G5. Any version, really. Give it enough RAM. That's it.

Problem solved?