The Register Follow up article

thats just my point, if i considered free speech anything which i agreed with, it would still be free speech cos thats what free speech is, its FREE, it means you can say ANYTHING and if others dont like it they can lump it.


for those of you that are interested ther is a good couple of articles on www.theinquirer.net about Apple and AMD a pretty good read.
 
That is not what free speech is. Free speech is allowing people to have political views without persecution. It is not the right to be abusive without any comeback (I am not saying that anyone is being abusive on this thread).

This is a forum for the OSX community to share ideas and views on a specific subject. If the moderators feel that a post is detrimental to the OS X community or the forum then why should it appear on this forum? That does not mean that criticism is not allowed - on the contrary. Good quality criticism will enhance the OS X community and will increase the quality of the product and its awareness. That is the point of a lot of the discussion in this thread. The article was not good quality criticism and that was why it was not well received.

I feel that the moderators do a good job. I have seen too many forums degerate into slagging matches (which are of no use to anyone) in the name of free speech.

R.
 
The post above covers most of the points that I would have made on the free speech issue, so lets look at that article you linked us to.

As one of the only people in this forum who works in an Apple OS on an x86 systems on a daily basis, I have no problem with the idea of a 64-bit OS X versions for either AMD or IBM's POWER3/POWER4 series processors. The only problem is that I also have a very long memory for past events. After two years of work Apple produced a workstation OS for both Macs and PCs that was very stable, very fast, and very easy to use. On the eve of it's release some of the developers that are sighted in the article as very, VERY dedicated partners said out right that they would not rework their apps for the new OS because it didn't have a pre-existing customer base and the cost of porting their apps was too high. Over the next two years Apple developed Carbon to make the initial cost of porting pre-existing apps much less expensive and made the Classic environment both fully connected and rootless in the new OS so that users would still have their original apps to use while moving to the new system.

Basically, Rhapsody died because of what the DoJ called the Applications Barrier that has killed off many good operating systems (both OS/2 Warp and BeOS come to mind), and Mac OS X has survived by producing what would best be described as a running start based mainly on the pre-existing apps for the Mac OS on the 32-bit PowerPC platform. I would also point out that some of those very, Very dedicated partners have taken up to a year to produce any of the major apps needed for Mac OS X to stand on it's own without Classic (last time I checked Adobe still hasn't given a release date for the native version of Photoshop).

People are not going to use a system that doesn't have any applications, and developers are not going to write for a system that has no users. Apple took two years to create a bridge for both developers and users to come to the new OS together (and it was a shaky bridge at that) on a relatively constant hardware platform. How long do you think it is going to take to make the same type of bridge to a different hardware environment? Think about it, how would todays current Classic apps and native apps run in a future Classic that had to be able to run apps designed for 32-bit PowerPC on a 64-bit AMD system. I can tell you, it would be very much like running Windows apps in VirtualPC on a Mac today. You can do it, but if all I had was Windows apps and there weren't any Mac apps, I would not buy a Mac just to run everything in VPC.

By the INQUIRER
But Apple will have a brand new OS X-64, an untouchable user interface with world renowned ease of use, a design style only seen in galleries, and the stability of Unix.
Click to expand...

Yes it would have all that, and have no users or developers, just this great system. Steve Jobs did something like that once, only he was one of the first to move into the 32-bit platform, and the company wasn't Apple. He has tried the build it and they'll come idea twice, once with NeXT and once with Apple (Rhapsody). Both were like the best parties ever... that no one came to.
 
Funny that you, FRGMstr, preach free speech and then you tel me what NOT to tell you.
Guess the post belies the poster.

Everyone covered just about all of your other logic flaws in the free speech argument, but just go ahead and say ANYTHING you want. You might start with "Do you smell Bacon??!" to a cop, The "N" word to any of my black friends or "Fire!" (the classic example cited by court after court) in a crowded movie house....

Wouldn't want to be your defense attorney in that case...
 
Look man, whatever. If i wanted to say to a copper "do you smell bacon" theres nothing he could do about it, im simply asking a question. Being racist is being racist at the end of the day, however if i said i hate N*****(not that i do but since you bought it up) in general im perfectly within my rights to do so, those are my feelings and im allowed to express them verbally so long as im not infringing on someone elses rights as i do so.

Its as simple as that.
 
I'd personally class being racially abusive as 'infringing someone else's right', but hey, what do I know?

You are right, of course. Technically you can say what you like, all the time, to whoever you choose. Just don't expect people to like it, and be willing to back up what you have to say with something more tangible than 'I can say what I like, so I'm going to'. Just because you have the power to say what you like, doesn't mean you should. I'm not talking self-censorship, so much as general consideration.

As impartial in this thing, having just stumbled into this thread I think that whilst RacerX may have been a _little_ harsh in his criticism of your attitude to start with, you haven't done yourself any favours with your replies. People here are generally helpful and polite, we are fortunate to have a very leniant Admin who seems to run the boards on a 'treat them like adults and they'll behave like it' policy and in general this generosity has paid off and we've ended up having a nice friendly forum with a minimum of bitching.

And to be fair, posting a link to an OSX-bashing article in an OSX forum is bound to receive a negative response, particularly when this seems to be the main thrust of most of your posts.

In conclusion, I do hope that nothing that has been said here in this forum will prejudice you against the Apple platform or the people who use it, but do take a step back, try and read your posts from an objective standpoint and perhaps you can see where some people are coming from.
 
now that was well put. thats exactly what i mean, no one has to like what you say, but you still have a right to say it.

I see what you mean but i do also post the follow ups to articles both good and bad.

being racist is abusive i agree.
 
I believe you are confusing (or I am) political speech with speech in general. Read the case law. Courts have consistently held that you DO have the right to state opinions and I have fought to defend our constitution and those very rights as many have.

On the other hand you DO NOT have the right to say ANYTHING as you have stated repeatedly. Maybe this is where we are missing each other's points...

Again check the case law. I notice you neglected to counter my "shouting fire in a crowded theater" argument (the classic ConLaw example)... You absolutely do not have that right. And, I think you realize that.

Insulting an officer of the law is a crime. Check the statutes. I think the thinly veiled "do I smell Bacon" statement would qualify as an insult in most jurisdictions and depending on the circumstances and the judge. Or, in a confrontation with an individaul not a member of law enforcement, words of that nature are what are called "Fighting Words" and are grounds for a defense of self-defense to any violence that may occur as a result.
The case law, again, bears this out all the way back from English Common Law (and even Roman Laws) to the present day.

Defamation and libel are actionable in a court of law.

Re: the "N" word or any other racist comment, courts are more and more moving to restrict and/or ban this type of speech as well. There are many Hate speech/ Hate Crime laws on the books.

Look, I hate censorship in all its forms. I have never deleted a thread. Admin preaches a pretty much hands off policy.

But, we live in a society of laws. I work in that system of laws. When we all "signed-up" for this Social Contract thing, we (society) agreed that with every freedom comes an even more important responsibility. Unfortunately, some/many want all the freedoms with none of the responsibilities. "Saying ANYTHING just cuz I can" reeks of that attitude.
 
yes apb3 that is correct but lets be honest here, those instances which you mention are extremes, i am guilty of none of them with regards to this forum though.
 
I believe claiming you have the right to say ANYTHING is extreme. Thus, my counter with facts to back it up.

And, no, those cases are not extreme (well the tired old crying fire... thing is - but it illustrates a point; look beyond the simple example to the core issue it raises). They happen every day. I've seen innumerable clients in these situations.
 
Actually this brings up an interesting point - which laws are appropriate to a forum on the internet. There are many countries represented here. Remember the case of France banning (I think it was) Yahoo because of certain auctions on that site. Different countries have very different freedom of speech laws.

R.
 
the issue of country and laws is simple - the site is registered and holds physical location in the US. US law applies to this site. the state and community law in which it originates are also applicable.

this has been a great discussion on free speech. well worth the lack of thought that started it. :D

so frgmstr - are you getting a bit ancy waiting on the new mac to arrive?
 
well put.

I deal with similar issues almost daily. it does make your head spin sometimes...

and despite our differences, FRG, I have enjoyed our discorse (or is it discord?!) AND, I too want to know when you get your new mac...

I also hope you find this board and it's members helpful and pretty open-minded. Maybe you just had a bad experience. We do keep this very free-form and open. Just beware The Herve... We have our theories re: him:D

Found out today my wife's lab ordered her a new dual 1GHz and got the cinema display (this to go with her TiBook! which I promptly liberated) Man, if I only had her lab (she's a PhDer at Harvard - almost finished). They PAY her to go there plus a monthly stipend! I had to pay for Law School all on my lonesome. Go figure. Guess I'm just a chump.

Shoul've skipped Law School and just got my PhD in BioInformatics like I'm doing now. Could still do Patent Law but wouldn't have the J.D. after my name. big deal.

Anyway, hope there's no hard feelings here. Just us discussing our opinions. And, like Ed says, it has turned out to be quite interesting. I'd like to hear more opinions on the topic from others.

Moderator, maybe move this to another area?
 
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