US fingerprints 'allied' visitors

pds said:
MDLarson, just how does a fingerprint lead to a safer world? Back in the mid 90's there was this push to fingerprint children so that they could be "protected." From what and how exactly? Seems fingerprints are used to catch bad-guys after the fact, not before it.
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Well, how 'bout a safer world for ME? At least I would feel safer knowing that foreigners coming to the U.S. are better documented.

The intellectual part of me believes that a fingerprint could assist in an investigation of a terrorist attack. For instance, a recovered fingerprint off an unexploded bomb in a multi-bomb attack (similar to the Madrid bombing) could be compared to the fingerprint database. Without the database, the print off the bomb would be useless, or much harder to track.

I don't understand how you can compare this to fingerprinting children; as we're not trying to "protect" terrorists?
 
If fingerprints = safety and easier to track the terrorists after the attacks - wouldn't it be worth fingerprinting everyone in all the world? So lets say everyone in US was fingerprinted .. and the bomber of Oklahoma would have been tracked faster (in case the fingerprints would have been in the exploded bomb etc..) ?

Not all the bad behaviour, violene or terrorism comes from outside. The 9/11 hijackers had Saudi Arabian passports, and were all resident regularly in US with a regular visa (not the regular turist visa)... they were not _from_ USA, but so many other people causing some big misfortunes have been. I mean, even one schoolkid shooting an other schoolkid is a major misfortune, even if the sufferers are only 1 (and 2 families, and all school, and all city probably). .. I mean incidents like those, or those that Michael Moore discusses in Bowling for Colombine ..

Fingerpints. So, they would protect from violence/terrorism etc afterwards, when whatever has already happened, by then having the easiness to compare the fingerprints on .. an exploded bomb to those of the local residents / legal and illegal aliens?
 
Collecting fingerprints would probably not prevent a terrorist attack, but it would be helpful in the investigation afterwards, like any other crime. Do we not have a database of criminals' fingerprints? Should we not take steps to protect our borders from future terrorism? Of course we don't want to treat our allies like criminals or terrorists, but I think it's obvious that security is a very big issue these days, and fingerprinting folks coming into our land is a necessary step. Why is this so difficult an issue?
 
Maybe because most of the countries (Portugal and Brazil as ecceptions) tend to collect the finger prints ONLY from the criminals??

Fignerprinting could be applied with the same security reason for US citizens (and any non-EU citizens) visiting EU countries. For security. So in case there are any terrorist attacks in EU it will be easier to track down .. the non-Europeans.

Having everyone's fingerprints filed instead of selected (non-criminals such as people born in other places) people's would fasten solving and tracking down a lot more crimes. (robbaries, thefts, murders, terrorism, vandalism etc etc etc)

Being filed with fingerprints feels being categorized as a criminal (because of you having been born in a wrong place) if you have lived in countries where the fingerprints are taken exclusively from the criminals. Would that be one valid reason for it sounding so difficult?
 
Of course we don't want to treat our allies like criminals or terrorists
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... but that is exactly what you are doing. It is essential to the judiciary system that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. By pre-emptively taking mug shots and fingerprints, you are treating all foreign visitors as potential criminals, i.e. as presumed guilty. This is quite insulting and invasive. Next step: thoughtcrime and camera's everywhere as in 1984. ::rolleyes::
 
what about business trips?
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What about them? When you have to travel internationally for business, you just want to pass through customs as quickly as possible and hope your luggage isn't lost and that the hotel is halfway decent.
 
But giving your passport to an embassy for a few days and submitting papers and a photograph is acceptable? And that is a requirement for many places. Puh-leeze.
Besides, if you did travel for business, you'd realize soon enough that each place has its own set of rules and regulations. Some make more sense than others.
 
I started this this morning and only now have finished it off. I hope it is still germane to the topic.

It is not a difficult issue at all. It is a political decision to lull folks into a false sense of security. It costs no votes at home and creates the illusion that something big is being done.

The substitution of emotion for objective fact is to me one of the indications of a society in decline. Feeling safe is *not* the same as being safe. It is an illusion that has little or no bearing on reality. Take for example a walk around the block on an evening in Harlem (a black/spanish ghetto for the unitiated). I know of people who won't even think about it. To me it's a walk in the park so to speak. I feel safe, the other doesn't. How does that affect the reality of being mugged in Harlem? One who feels safe may be the one who gets mugged while the one who is terrified is the one who doesn't. (This is not meant as a racist slur - de ninguna manera! It is just an example.)

The one who feels safe may be the one who ignores reality and therefore doesn't deal with the fundamental issues that makes him unsafe in the first place.

Re: fingerprinting children... It is similar in that the companies involved used a ploy to exploit people's fears, presented a false promise of safety, and then benefited from the whole charade (funny - pay $25 to give away your anomynity). Today the politicians and the whole "homeland security industrial complex" are cashing in on the false promise.

Sorry folks, the world is not safe. Accidents happen and bad guys kick good guys when they get a chance. It is a wonderful world, but there are no guarantees.

Re: finding people through fingerprints. I don't think too many crimes are or could be solved by fingerprints. Even if I identify the perp, how will I find him without detective work. Was the Oklahoma bomber found quicker because of fingerprints? I thought it was the fact that he was an idiot and was stopped for speeding with an expired license the same day of the blast. (or is my memory fuzzy on that?). Madrid bombers caught through fingerprints? Don't think so. It was a direct identification by the mobile seller wasn't it? If they had found that Ahmed Ayahaga had left his prints on the bomb, how will they find Ahmed Ayahaga?

It's funny, but there are three Mohammed Attas in my school and I know at least ten others personaly. So the "universal fingerprint database" only leads to the need for a "universal location registry".

I usually like to keep my paranoia in the night table by my bed, but the idea of universal fingerprint databases smacks of Big Brother. For me, I'd rather be vigilant than falsely secure.
 
Randman said:
What about them? When you have to travel internationally for business, you just want to pass through customs as quickly as possible and hope your luggage isn't lost and that the hotel is halfway decent.
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I agree. No problem if the Swiss administration wants my finger prints and my image to be added (electronically) to my passport... if it saves me 30 minutes the next time I have to cross the US (or any other) border.

I would be reluctant today to give my DNA as this is too often miss-used as most people do not understand that several people share the same DNA identifiers (justices uses some 10-15 traces to identify an individual with DNA, which is o.k. to demonstrate that this is not my DNA, but which is not sufficient to demonstrate that this IS my DNA as at least 10-15 people share the same traces worldwide, therefore any DNA identification can lead to 10 to 15 possible suspects) DNA is a hint, not a proof.

And I agree that all countries should require the same image and finger prints information, so that a single system would serve all.

And I think that we should have an international way to verify the integrity of the information relative to any person (I want to know that the information that FBI and others collect around me is correct).
 
Well, I guess I can understand your guys' points... I can only speak for myself, and myself thinks there doesn't have to be a conspiracy with every security measure introduced as a result of the "War on Terror", including this one (fingerprinting).
 
I live in the land of the conspiracy theory, but I am not talking about a conspiracy, just a mindset that style is more important than substance.

And one that will accept style over substance (objective reality).

@ cat - I think the new fingerprint scans are less humiliating than having some smelly policeman twist your fingers in the black ink.
 
Cat said:
Have you ever been fingerprinted, MDLarson?
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Once in grade school probably. I think I thought it was fun and cool at the time. (It's ok, I'm sure they were protecting me! :D )

Let me just paraphrase my point of view. I live in Minnesota, pretty much in the middle of North America, and far away from most other countries (except friendly Canada). I saw the 9/11 tragedy on TV, and I know that I personally didn't do anything to deserve such a death as those in the Trade Center received. I also know that people have dedicated their lives to killing 'Americans'. That includes me. I AM ON SOMEBODY'S HIT LIST.

I have also heard many reports about the inadequate immigration / customs procedures and how the bad guys still managed to get through, even coming through Canada's unprotected border.

I view steps that tighten security in the U.S. as a good thing. If reasonable security measures like fingerprinting offends utopians like yourself, then so be it.

I fail to see how this issue is just a ploy to somehow lull Americans into thinking they're more safe than they really are. Obviously somebody in Homeland Security thought fingerprinting is worthwhile, and I believe them.
 
I have to disagree with you on that. As an American who's been working abroad and traveling a bit these past few years, there are other countries that are far more difficult to enter. And some have double standards. Last year, my fiancee and I went to Germany, she for business, me for holiday.
I was let through Customs in a matter of seconds, no questions asked. She, being Chinese, was held up for more than 5 minutes and had to reply to a number of questions, including her purpose for being there, contact information, hotel arrangements, languages spoken, etc.
But it seems that the US is a lightning rod for criticism. I would bet that if another country started doing the same, Spain or Japan, for example, that the outcry would be far less.
It's an election year and, for good or bad, security it a prime issue and steps are going to be done to placate the masses, even if it alienates some visitors.
Overall, this topic is much ado about nothing. If it gives people of mind, so be it. And six months from now, people will hardly remember what the fuss was all about.
Have a latte and sit back and relax some. Life's not that difficult in most places, be it Minnesota, elsewhere in the US or most other places on the planet.
 
Being a Canadian myself MDLarson I hope you realize that incompetence knows no borders!We have our share of ignorants true,but I don't see people here making a "cottage industry"of paranoia.What other countries allow their citizens to publish books on making explosives,faking their indentities?Wasn't the book (Diary of a Hitman) from the states?Aren't more people murdered in the states every year through gun violence than any terrorist attacks? I'm sure someone here has the number,it will be staggering!Would you look upon this as a price of freedom?
 
All I know (or think I know) is that terrorists want in, and I want to keep them out. If we can't keep them from coming in, maybe fingerprinting them will allow us to track them. Sheesh, that's all folks. I'm not a criminal investigator.
 
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