US fingerprints 'allied' visitors

[Zammy-Sam]

All I know (or think I know) is that terrorists want in, and I want to keep them out. If we can't keep them from coming in, maybe fingerprinting them will allow us to track them. Sheesh, that's all folks. I'm not a criminal investigator.

Hmmm, let me give an extreme example so ppl get the point why some are against this fingerprinting:
if this fingerprinting is to make life more secure, what would you say if EVERYONE would get a GPS-module implemented and somehow guarded? Someone posted before, that there is a higher killing rate on national criminality than some international terrorism. So, wouldn't such a guarding idea make everyone out there feel more safe? If I got the logic of some ppl here, they should accept this. But I wouldn't, since I enjoy my privacy. So, it's a question of balance between security and privacy. Some ppl weight security more, some other prefere the privacy. I believe fingerprinting brings more loss in privacy than a gain of security.

 

[Satcomer]

Here is a novel idea. How about the US INS actually do their job and check green card applicants and visitor visas for backgrounds, etc. With todays technology there is no reason to hook all Interpol records and files to police and INS agencies around the world. If the French or germans consider person a as a possible terrorist then the US denies them a Visa or reviews the person a lot more carefully.

You wouldn't believe the amount of ignorance/hatred between US agencies toward each other. This is even after 9/11. Plus, we are not alone. I saw a report about how Canadian equivalent agencies have 1930 paper technology at their borders and people (terrorist toward Canada and the US) on the Canadian's terrorist watch list (by Canadian standards) are walking right in (from flights, boats, etc.) and sometimes it took two weeks for the border guards to get info on person.

I'm just afraid that our governments are incapable to protect a determined terrorist no matter what they try because they are so far behind the technology curve (most people don't know how far). In the US there is such a distrust between departments they will never really work with each other. So this finger print idea looks good on paper, but in reality it will just be a headache for normal, law-abiding decent people trying to enter the US (or any other country).

 

[pds]

I'm just afraid that our governments are incapable to protect a determined terrorist no matter what they try because they are so far behind the technology curve (most people don't know how far).

So we should spend more time and effort rooting out the sources of terrorism while making effort to generate more synergy on the beaurocratic front, and less on political feels-good posturing that will produce data that will stay at the bottom of that curve.

Our present efforts in the former are disastrous at best. The present situation, regardless of all the politics in Washington with the Condi-Clarke revue, throws nitro-fuel on the fire of the resentment, angst, anger and despair that coughs up suicide maniacs and the cadre of the terror network. The Arab youth (face it - they are the only terrorists these days) has to be given hope that springs from within, not that is handed down from some high-handed military manoever (sp). It is by no means a simple task but it starts about 150 miles east of the shore of the Mediterranean with a commitment to the territorial and economic rights of the Palestinian people.

It is too late to say a stitch in time saves nine, the situation is already torn. But the victory in the war on terror will never come until the Palestinian people are dealt with fairly.

 

[Giaguara]

The Arab youth (face it - they are the only terrorists these days) has to be given hope that springs from within, not that is handed down from some high-handed military manoever (sp).

I disagree with that.

I know more Christian extremists than Arab extremists. I have worked with some Arab people, and generally people from around the world (including people from the countries Bush does not like).

But, of course, being a Christian With Strong Opinions is widely accepted.

 

[MDLarson]

I believe fingerprinting brings more loss in privacy than a gain of security.

I can understand this point of view.

I know more Christian extremists than Arab extremists. I have worked with some Arab people, and generally people from around the world (including people from the countries Bush does not like).

But, of course, being a Christian With Strong Opinions is widely accepted.

Well, I would bet you could classify me as a Christian extremist, but I have don't think I'm extreme (who does?). Isn't it Bush who is constantly saying "Churches, synagogues and mosques"? My point is that Bush is not targeting "Muslims", but Muslim terrorists and extremists. Do you hang out with many terrorists and extremists?

 

[Giaguara]

No, I avoid all extremists no matter what is their ideology .. (well, I don't avoid those who are extreme about Macs, but everything else.. any religion and political ideology)

 

[MDLarson]

No, I avoid all extremists no matter what is their ideology .. (well, I don't avoid those who are extreme about Macs, but everything else.. any religion and political ideology)

Yeah, I guess my two biggest pashions are being a Christian and Macs. Kinda weird to just think about that. ANyway, I'm done talking about fingerprints...

 

[pds]

There is a difference between an extremist and a terrorist. "Terrorism" is a world level problem, a challenge to progress and stability.

Extremism/fundamentalism are related problems, connected to the same tensions of modernity, globalization and opportunity, and they must be dealt with too. But the clear and evident danger is the Al Qaida challenge and the support that they get from Hamas to Abou Zaiyef. And the festering sore that feeds the ranks is in Jerusalem and the West Bank.

(Interestingly, the mobilization of the west to deal with that problem will entail a PR push that may help to mitigate the effects of extremism in the Christian world. It is not a panacea, but it would help to stretch our 'Christian values' of justice and freedom to some who are not part of 'our group.')

 

[habilis]

[pessimistic rant]
It's not like fingerprinting is going to make any difference at all in any way whatsoever. Christians aren't going to change any time soon, Muslims aren't going to change any time soon. As long as 2 different religions or races exist on this planet, they will fight and kill each other. As long as human nature exists as it does today, we will keep killing each other. World peace is an unobtainable fantasy. Rwanda was you and me killing thousands of children. It happened yesterday under our noses, and nobody missed a beat.

In the long run, fingerprinting or no, it's not going to stop a terrorist. It might stall a plot here, foil a plan there, but it's just a band-aid really. Today, Nothing can stop terrorism. Not money, not love, not being nice, not clean water, not renouncing our gods to please Islam, not erasing Israel to please Islam, not staying out of foreign countries. Had all this terrorism happened before mass media, America would have invaded the middle east, beheaded all the Muslim political and religious leaders, killed hundreds of thousands of men-women-children, occupied and annexed the land and its resources, completely redrawn the map of the Middle East, and over 20 or so years, forcefully westernized and indoctrinated the entire remaining Arab populations to Christianity and conquered Islam as a whole.

But since that solution isn't going to happen until we have a huge smoking crater in the ground where NYC used to be, you can expect Fingerprinting, homocide bombers, and band-aids to be in vogue for quite some time.
[/pessimistic rant]

 

[pds]

[pessimistic rant]
As long as 2 different religions or races exist on this planet, they will fight and kill each other. As long as human nature exists as it does today, we will keep killing each other.

Hmm, human nature is the root of the killing? Boy did you get up on the wrong side of the bed! As far as I can remember it has been a long time since anyone I know just got up and killed someone. Murder and killing is deviant behavior, not human nature. Most people don't kill other people. Most people look for ways to get along. My own family is an example. My sister is happily married to a Pakistani, my brother to an Italian girl, I to a German, another sister to a Jew and another to an Algerian. People of different races and cultures can get along. It just requires focus on our sameness rather than on our differentness.

World peace is an unobtainable fantasy. Rwanda was you and me killing thousands of children. It happened yesterday under our noses, and nobody missed a beat.

Interesting mix of (subliminal) metaphors here. The buyers and the sellers were no diff'rent fellers... The remorse felt that _we_ didn't do anything leads me to feel there is hope that we _can_ make the right choices at some point.

In the long run, fingerprinting or no, it's not going to stop a terrorist. It might stall a plot here, foil a plan there, but it's just a band-aid really. Today, Nothing can stop terrorism. Not money, not love, not being nice, not clean water, not renouncing our gods to please Islam, not erasing Israel to please Islam, not staying out of foreign countries.

I'm not sure who offered any of these solutions, but it wasn't anyone in the thread. I certainly hope that what follows is not a suggestion of a plan of action.

Had all this terrorism happened before mass media, America would have invaded the middle east, beheaded all the Muslim political and religious leaders, killed hundreds of thousands of men-women-children, occupied and annexed the land and its resources, completely redrawn the map of the Middle East, and over 20 or so years, forcefully westernized and indoctrinated the entire remaining Arab populations to Christianity and conquered Islam as a whole.

uh, isn't that what Richard the Lionheart tried to do? That was some few years before the advent of mass media, as I recall. Interestingly, the Arab populations are not sure that the idea was put to bed by history and that it lives in the mind of a certain western leader. Seems it does live in the pessimistic rants of some re-educators

But since that solution isn't going to happen until we have a huge smoking crater in the ground where NYC used to be, you can expect Fingerprinting, homocide bombers, and band-aids to be in vogue for quite some time.
[/pessimistic rant]

I can understand a pessimistic rant every once in a while. World peace does indeed seem elusive. I hope that after a good nights rest you will rethink the idea of ethnic cleansing as a viable policy for the future of mankind.

 

[MDLarson]

Hmm, I'm a Christian and I've never considered this whole thing a "war against muslims". I consider it a war against terrorists who usually are muslim. Every group has a bad bunch, including Christianity.

It's embarrasing to me as a Christian to remember the crusades.

 

[Giaguara]

Not ALL muslims are terrorists.

Maybe they should just add to the turist visa questions about religion. "Are you muslim? If so, are you a terrorist?"

Asking that would not be any more discriminating than the actual questions there about health.

 

[MDLarson]

Sorry, I don't mean to imply that only muslims are terrorists. I should have made that clear.

 

[pds]

Maybe they should just add to the turist visa questions about religion. "Are you muslim? If so, are you a terrorist?"

lol! Hey, the form asks if you are a drug addict, so...

Most terrorists would classify themselves as freedom fighters though - terrorist is a label saved for US soldiers and Israeli Prime Ministers. Washington is not the only spin-city in the world...

 

[Giaguara]

Yes, it asks not only about being a [drug] addict but also other issues about [standard health, and meantal] health.
And still they ask if you were involved in genocides during World War II ...
Just add a "Do you plan to involve in terroristic behaviour while you are in the States? If so, please specify which kind of []hijacking planes []bomb attacks []disturbing white people []sue mddonalds for the obesity they caused you in your home country etc etc. so just a few more crosses and yes and nos to the form. It would do more as if anyone would do anything controindicated, they could be caught for a lie as well ...

 

[MDLarson]

This reminds me of something I heard on the radio... one of the tax forms actually have a section telling you that you MUST report all income, including illegal activities... haha!

 

[Giaguara]

This reminds me of something I heard on the radio... one of the tax forms actually have a section telling you that you MUST report all income, including illegal activities... haha!

 

[markceltic]

Sounds just like something a govt. employee would come up with.Well you never know some fool might report his illegal activities.I wonder how long it would take before they actually caught the offender.As slow as any govt. is the offender will probably get a refund to put towards their escape from the feds!::ha::

 

[Arden]

I fail to see how fingerprinting anybody coming into the country is going to stop terrorists, or whatever they want. As (someone) said above, it's a false sense of security that it builds. Fingerprints can only incriminate a person after he does something, IF he's dumb enough to leave them, and IF he hasn't blown himself to smithereens already.

 

[Zammy-Sam]

welcome back Arden!