War and Religion

[edX]

ok, we have enough threads discussing the rights and wrongs of war. of this war and of any war. but it's interesting to me how different religious people reconcile their feelings about war - no matter which side they stand on.

also there was this article in the SF Chronicle today that raises some interesting things about prophecies. i'll admit that one of the reasons all this scares me so much is because back in the late 80's and early 90's i read a number of books talking about prophecies of some terrible things that would happen from about 2002 - 2012. some of these were interpretations of nostradamus predictions while others were from other sources including the bible. The events that are unfolding are frighteningly similar to what i read back then. i'm still looking for some of my original sources and specifics, but i'd like to hear from others on this.

one quote from this article i found particularly disturbing -

Bernal does not think Saddam Hussein is the anti-Christ because that great deceiver will be "extremely subtle, cunning. He will look like the ultimate peace-broker."

 

[ScottW]

Ed,

I was quite interested in end-times prophecy concerning the Bible back in 92-94. Although my interest again sparked with the WTC attack and have been following things pretty closely.

Although everything is open to debate in discussion, this pretty much sums up what the Bible says in a nutshell concerning end times events.

1) The tribulation period is the last 7 years of the world "as we know it". The tribulation begins with a 7 year peace treaty being signed between Israel and another government or person, basically, the anti-christ.

2) The first 3.5 years of the tribulation, the world will experience a peace that has not been seen since the beginning of time.

3) At the 3.5 year mark, the anti-christ will sit on a thrown in Israel and declare himself to be god. This basically, unleashes the remaining 3.5 years... and begins to final battle called armagedon. When many countries around the world converge against Israel.

4) The Bible clearly says that the if God hadn't stepped in to stop it (just before then end of the 7 years) that all of man would be destroyed. At the end of the 7 year period, Jesus returns to earth and rules for 1000 years on earth.

5) Following the 1000 year reign, this earth is destroyed and a new heavens and earth is created.

That is pretty much all of it in a nut shell. I could go on about plagues and other descuction, references to possible nuclear attacks or meteor destruction here on earth.

I have also read recent discussion (not new ideas, but new to me) concerning prophecies about the destruction of Damascus in Syria, in how Damascus ceases to be a city, basically a heap of ruins. Also, references of the area of Iraq being "un-inhabitable". These prophecies, if not already fullfilled (which they don't seem to be) appear to happen, before the tribulation period.

Many have been concerned (or looking forward too) that the current Iraq crises could be the beginning of "birth pains" for the end time events to unfold. Interesting enough, Israel has been excluded from this conflict to date. The key to watch for are all things Israel when it comes to prophecy.

Also... there is some discussion and debate on where the USA fits into the end times, and why it appears in prophecies concerning end times, the USA is not mentioned as a "end time power". Although, reference is made to a "Mystery Babylon" which the Bible says is is the merchant capital of the world. While reading it, you can't help but think of a city lik New York or other port city. It Bible says that the city was destroyed in under an hour, basically goes up in smoke. And how only those on ships in the sea watched in amazement and where sad. The whole world is sad in fact, because this city or country or place is where everyone in the world deals with and would not be able to sell everything they previously did.

(I am paraphrasing really bad for layman purposes).

Anyhow... then you have the whole RAPTURE discussion... a time when Christians (those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior) are "caught up". The Left Behind serious of fictional books play on this debatable discussion (even inside Christian circles). A popular belief and is the rapture will occur just prior to the 7 year tribulation period. Others believe just before the 3.5 year mark in the tribulation, while others say it's post-tribulation. Of course, this is a "secondary" debate amoung Christians.

LOTS of neat stuff. I can't vouch for other prophecy folks as I will only vouch for the Bible.



Scott

 

[ScottW]

Ed,

Here is something I think you should read. This was written by Jerry Golden, a Jew in Israel. I just read this following my previous post and is very interesting read. A different perspective for current time events and future events.

----

3-22-03

Meanwhile back in Israel!

Knowing that you witnessed the awesome precision bombing in Baghdad last night as we did, I will not elaborate on it. Instead I will speak of Israel and what concerns us here at this time. And should concern every true Believer and follower of Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) on this planet.

Don?t be distracted and don?t take your eyes off of Israel because when it is all said and done Israel and Jerusalem is what it is all about, for there is a move in the spirit far greater than what you just witnessed on TV in the natural. And for those who don?t know that or believe that, they will come to that reality soon enough. You hear of the New Prime Minister who was appointed by the world?s number one Terrorist Yasser Arafat and how pleased George Bush and Tony Blair are about this appointment. But the truth about this new appointment is not being reported.

His name is Abu Mazen, and as things stand he will be accountable to Yasser Arafat, he will not have anything to do with security or negotiating peace, Yasser Arafat will keep that authority. And of course Yasser Arafat keeps the right to fire him at any time. But Bush and Blair are pleased with this appointment. The question is why are they so pleased? We will look at that a little later on in this article, but first Abu Mazen.

It should be noted that Abu Mazen refuses to accept the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish State, and he was one of the main reasons that Camp David failed as he would not give up the idea of the right of return for the (so-called) Palestinian refugees. He was known to have made the statement that the offer of 95% of the West Bank and Gaza was not enough, he wanted 100% meaning all the land that is now called Israel as well. At least he and Arafat do see eye to eye on that. He is a Holocaust denier, and has said many times that the Holocaust is just a big Jewish lie to steal Arab land. The one thing that he and Arafat disagree on is how to go about destroying Israel. There are many other things that I could say about the new Palestinian Prime Minister that Bush and Blair are so excited about but I will leave it for another time.

What I am about to say may upset a few, but it needs to be said, some may say the timing of my saying this is wrong, because of the war in Iraq. But it is because of the war in Iraq and nearness of what is about to happen in Israel that it needs to be said, now.

First to all the Believers who will read this, if President Bush is a "Christian" and that is not for you or I to judge he is at best one who has bought into the replacement theology. Meaning that the nation of Israel in the prophetic Word of God is not the same to him as it is to me and I hope to you. Therefore he has no problem forcing Israel to give away God?s land to the enemies of God. It is however obvious that he does accept Israel as an important friend to the United States, but not as important as the EU, the Arab oil rich world, Russia, or a host of others. Therefore Israel can be sacrificed for what he considers the betterment of the United States and the world. He is wrong and very wrong, for God has other plans of which we are all about to discover, and I might add the hard way.

President Bush does not want to end up as his father, a one term President, and he knows that somehow me must deliver something that looks like peace in the world, starting with the Middle east. He has spent enormous amounts of money, nearly bankrupting the United States at this point, and may very well finish that job soon. On top of that he has promised billions to everyone who will come to his side to help him destroy the man who tried to kill his father. So when it is all said and done he must have a sacrificial lamb to offer those at the door threatening to destroy him.

In the meantime Tony Blair who has stood faithfully when others ran is in an even worse political situation or at least a more immediate one. On top of everything else he has a pressing Islamic problem threatening to take over his country. And knows that if President Bush does not offer up Israel however clever he may be able to do it, they are both finished.

Bush?s first job was to deceive Ariel Sharon into believing his big lie. That lie was that when it is all said and done he would stand with Israel to the end. What Sharon didn?t understand was the last part of the sentence, to the end. Now what we here in Israel are wondering is why Sharon hasn?t woke up, because this Bush Road Map was not to take place until after the war with Iraq, and after Arafat ceased all violence and Palestinian incitement. But in a surprise move Bush did it earlier to gain support from the EU, Arab World, and other, without notifying Israel before he did, starting the sacrifice of Israel a little earlier than he intended.

So we are about to see a one sided agreement much like that of Oslo, Sharon will act like he agrees knowing that it spells the end of the Jewish State unless something supernatural happens, and it will. Simply because Sharon doesn?t know what else to do at this juncture. But if he doesn?t wake up in time, Israel will be sacrificed to safe Tony Blair?s job, and hopefully to get Bush re-elected, plus a host of other reasons to numerous to mention here. In the mean time the EU, Arab World, Russia and China will be smiling and the UN will come back into power even greater than before. All the above spells very bad news for anything left of Israel.

We Jews have been the blunt of the ills of mankind for a very long time, and nothing has changed, the evil forces who will do anything to hold off the appearance of the coming Messiah are hard at work. It has always been their top priority to kill all the Jews. What we are witnessing is their final effort and many will die because of the lack of good men and women doing what they know to be the right thing. Many who call themselves Christians have been totally deceived by the acts of George W. Bush and I know that this report will cause many to go separate ways. But the truth needs to be told and if given the opportunity I will tell it.

I think what has saddened me more than anything is the fact that Jews around the world who can return to their God given land have not done so. And many who what to return are simply unable. For if enough Jews had returned to Israel things would be much different, for the only sure way to save Israel is to fill Israel with Jews. Yet we see once again Jews in America and elsewhere who are doing well "financially" they just will not let go and follow the call from God to all Jews to return to Israel. So it is for a large part the fault of the Jews as well as those who want to destroy us today. For if they would in obedience return to Israel, then Israel would be much stronger.

But I will close with this, what George W. Bush is about to do, will cause the total destruction of the United States of America. And there is absolutely no doubt about it, for God is not a man that He should lie. Gen. 12:3

So far we are not expecting any attack from Saddam (if he is still alive) and other than the Palestinians dancing in the streets with pictures of Saddam, and a few regular daily terrorist attacks still happening, all is the same here.

Hizbullah has been told by Assad of Syria to sit still or else. He does not want Damascus destroyed and he knows Israel is coming straight to him if Hizbullah attacks. But this thing is far from over and the next few days will show us all many things.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem, for our son Joel, and all the IDF soldiers, and all the coalition soldiers who are fighting the Islamic enemy. Pray for this Ministry and your part in it. Shalom, jerry golden

 

[ScottW]

Ed,

Here I found this site... this person is explaining how current events might lead to end time events. This is just ONE mans view, not my own nor do I agree with it 100%. But since I know you like to read different view points... plus this should help explain some of my original post, at least in part.

http://jesus-is-the-way.com/PostWar.html

 

[dlloyd]

Ed, I have read both the 'Left Behind' books and the entire book of Revelation in the Bible several times, and I must say that it hadn't even occurred to me that Saddam Hussein could be the 'Anit-Christ'. As I see it, Saddam Hussein is the exact opposite of everything that the Anti-Christ will/would be, at least for the first section of the 'end times'
Scott, I know you said that you were simplifying a lot, but I think you slightly oversimplified there.
I would be happy to write out the 'end times' as I see them, but it would take a lot of typing, and I need sleep. I might do it in the morning though...

 

[edX]

thanks scott. i did find those interesting and food for thought. i certainly would be interested in any other such interpretations of this kind of thing that people are following.

but if i could be so bold, let me ask how this affects your position on the war? i know you are all for it. so there is a first assumption that it is because you are christian and thus would believe that your paradise of heaven is getting closer. yet at the same time this whole thing seems to me to be very contradictory to true christian values - just as this terrorist version of jihad is against true muslim values. i find this to be a tough spot to be in for someone who sees these interpretations being applied.

of course 'interpretation' is a key word in all this and thus how each person interprets and applies the information is a big part of what i am interested in.

 

[ScottW]

Ed,

I guess unlike those who are calling for a jihad or holy war, I really don't seem to see this war as a mix of religion.

I am for the war because it takes Saddam Hussain out of power. This man is bad. I don't think I need to explain or tell all the bad things he has done to the people of that country. I don't think anyone deserves to live under such rule. I don't want to see civilians be killed, but I also know it's part of the "cost" of war. Same with our troops or any troops. I hate to see them go, but a price has to be paid, either way. Either Saddam stays in power and potentially thousands or millions more are killed by this man, -or- action is taken to remove him of power and hundreds are killed. Either way, it's a cost, just which cost is greater?

Of course, end time events do excite me. I look forward to the return of Jesus, that goes without exception. It's exciting to think that I *might* be living in the end times, but I will continue to live my life. I'm not going to stop and wait. The signs are here, and it's obvious the end is near. But when that is, tomorrow or 50 years (or more) from now, is not known to me nor anyone else for that matter.

As a Christian, I want God's will to be done. I know that He has a plan and that He is in control. I know these wars will come and go, the Bible says they will. I also know the I will be persecuted for my faith, whether tortured or just attacked here on the boards. Although I might get frustrated, I also find assurance in it, knowing that God's word stands.

I would love to see everyone know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior... as the Bible says, the path to destruction is wide, but the path to heaven is narrow. We are not saved by our works, but by faith alone.

When I think about war with Iraq... I don't think about "down with muslims", I think, "down with Saddam". I think the people of Iraq should be able to worship what or who they want to worship, just as it is in the United States.

One last comment here (otherwise I will get lost on rabbit trails) and this is... you might think my statements above are contrary to my other posts in other threads holding a very "black & white" view point of just about everything. Saying that much of what is going on with Israel and Palestine is indeed spiritual warfare, just as I believe the same is involved with Iraq. Calling something spritual warfare is simply stating that something "supernatural" is happening to cause the conflicts, it's not just Chirstian's or Jews hitting others on the head with the Bible or vise-versa.

The big struggle in the middle-east is about Jesus. The jews missed the boat. Jesus came already, but they just didn't get it. They are still waiting on Him to return in glory, descending from Heaven. Christian's likewise, look forward to His "return" not His "first coming" as the Jews will see it.

Satan's goal is to stop all of this from happening. Although Satan might "win" many battles, he has lost the war. In the end, God wins.

People say, shouldn't God be a God of peace and love, how can a God of peace and love, be a God of war or anything else? How could God allow evil to happen.

The One True God is perfect. We are not perfect. The same God who created us, loves us, but He is a just God, meaning He casts judgement. Also, a imperfect person can not come into the presence of a perfect God, we would instantly die. So, how does a God who created us with our own free wills... and we turn around and sin against Him and become imperfect... How does a just God find a way to love us and to show to us everlasting life with Him?

Well, He sent His only son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross, to be the perfect blood sacrafice to cover all of our sins. Because a gift is given freely and not earned... all we have to do is believe in Him, to believe that we are sinners and fall short of His glory... and that we believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, the ultimate sacrafice.

That is a loving God. There is nothing I could do or not do that will get me into heaven... except for one thing... and it is faith.

Rabbit TRAIL Alert... STOPPING NOW.

Scott

 

[edX]

yea, you almost slipped in to preaching there. we'll have none of that in this thread thank you.

seriously, that was said in a way i can understand despite my own personal disagreements. i hope your posts set a tone for this thread to follow as you have neither condemned nor criticized others but simply stated alot of what you believe. and you corrected my asumptions without the need to 'defend' yourself.

but....things i'm left confused by -
(again, built up general assumptions, past experience, etc.)

I would love to see everyone know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior... as the Bible says, the path to destruction is wide, but the path to heaven is narrow. We are not saved by our works, but by faith alone.

there is something terribly frightening in that statement. it implies that one can do anything one wants - commit the worst attrocities even - and still be ok in the eyes of God. it almost seems license for war and destruction. it also doesn't correalate with Jesus' story of the good samaritan. i've always taken that story to mean that works and faith are equal. that God doesn't deal in the petty semantics of how one addresses him, but rather in how one reflects him. simply having faith that Jesus is God and that he will save all who believe that doesn't quite seem genuine to me.

... you might think my statements above are contrary to my other posts in other threads holding a very "black & white" view point of just about everything. Saying that much of what is going on with Israel and Palestine is indeed spiritual warfare, just as I believe the same is involved with Iraq. Calling something spritual warfare is simply stating that something "supernatural" is happening to cause the conflicts, it's not just Christian's or Jews hitting others on the head with the Bible or vise-versa.

well, i didn't quite buy into your 'black & white' sounding posts anyway. i guess i've come to know you're really a bit deeper than that, even if a bit quieter about your reflections than the results of them much of the time. i actually buy into this interpretation to an extent. i may not belong to any of these belief systems, but i do think that events in this world are effected by events in others. to some extent i believe that a constant 'battle' of dark and light is required to maintain the natural order of things. my biggest quandry is in determining if anyone in this conflict (leaders and gungho participants/supporters) is really part of the light. and if so, which one from an 'end days' perspective?

but from my view, i seem to be seeing it as the forces that engage in all of this as being forces of the dark. or to put this in more easternly terms with the yin yang symbol as focal point - that war and it's participants are the aggressive or masculine force (dark part - yang) and that those who are campaigning for peace are the passive or feminine force (light part - yin). and as the symbol so wonderfully illustrates, within each is a part of the other. while you see the battle as one to be won or lost, i see it more as one that must be gently maintained for the greater good. at neither point must either overwhelm the other.

i also have views that synthesize various mystic beliefs from judaism, christianity and various other religions that incorporate this view of maintaining balance as a vital part of God.

and while i know that you know, let me set any new comers straight on my religious beliefs. i am a pagan. what that means is far more complicated than i am going to get into here. i would also end up running down rabbit trails to do so. but to oversimplify, i am more concerned with my personal relationship with Diety than i am with any particular books on the subject or manmade institutions for worshipping. i see God as multifaceted and as such approach each facit with a unique focus - hence God becomes Gods. it's my own belief that the Romans were as quick to Christianize as they were because it was much simpler than dealing with multiple Gods. for me it is easier to relate to parts of God, than to an omniscient All. The hindus have it right - All Gods are One God.


so, to change the subject back a minute, here's an interesting web site that i ran across while looking for nostradamus stuff - http://nostradamus.freehomepages.com/ . i thought you and a few others around here might find this interesting. i've never seen nostradamus tied to such pro christian/anti- abortion views before and just found this ..how shall i put it...different.

*note- i do not expect to see this become a thread about abortion. we have had them already and anyone can start another if they feel the need to address it again. i personally am pro choice. i would like to keep this thread civil and intelligent with respect for each other and not denunciations of others beliefs nor the beliefs that might be linked to in the process. please open your minds long enough to realize and accept that if we are going to think different, we are going to be different*

 

[chevy]

Independantly of the fact that some people think that they are superior forces or not, religions and prophecies were created and used by human either to explain why they are right, or to lower their fears of the unknown.

Humans are responible for their acts, for their decisions, for what they do and for what they don't do. Don't put the responsability on a god or on a destiny.

 

[ScottW]

Originally posted by chevy
IHumans are responible for their acts, for their decisions, for what they do and for what they don't do. Don't put the responsability on a god or on a destiny.

Exactly.

The thing is, God already knows the decisions we will make, even before we make them, even before we were created. Thus, it is very easy for God to be prophetic on events because He knows just exactly how man's free will is going to play out.

 

[toast]

As I am writing, French muslim 'representatives' have joined in Évry to declare that they will pray and condemn all forms of violence in their prayers. In other words, they refuse to support any side of the warmongers.

My 2¢

 

[ScottW]

Originally posted by edX
there is something terribly frightening in that statement. it implies that one can do anything one wants - commit the worst attrocities even - and still be ok in the eyes of God. it almost seems license for war and destruction. it also doesn't correalate with Jesus' story of the good samaritan. i've always taken that story to mean that works and faith are equal. that God doesn't deal in the petty semantics of how one addresses him, but rather in how one reflects him. simply having faith that Jesus is God and that he will save all who believe that doesn't quite seem genuine to me.

Ed, one of the things I harp on and many will do the same as I do, it's not ME who is saying it, it's the Bible that says it.

Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

We see an example of this... Parable of Two Debtors, Luke 7, 40-50, "40___And Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he replied, "Say it, Teacher."
41___"A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred [2] (25) denarii, and the other fifty.
42___"When they (26) were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?"
43___Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly."
44___Turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you (27) gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
45___"You (28) gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet.
46___"(29) You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume.
47___"For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."
48___Then He said to her, "(30) Your sins have been forgiven."
49___Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "(31) Who is this man who even forgives sins?"
50___And He said to the woman, "(32) Your faith has saved you; (33) go in peace."

In response to your statement, yes you are correct. Someone who commits the worst possible sins in all the world, (ie Hitler) could, 5 minutes before he dies, ask for forgiveness and be saved. Salvation is a free gift, not earned. If Hitler didn't have the same options as anyone else, then salvation would not be a free gift, but would be earned (works).

Now, let's look at it differently, using Hitler again. *If* Hitler had been a Christian before he did everything he did, would he still have been saved? Yes.

As Christians, we are judged by God and held accountable by God. Our "free pass" to heaven is only based on faith. Our rewards in heaven (of which we turn around hand back to God) are based upon our life as Christians.

The only unpardonable sin is not beliving in Jesus. Which really makes sense. If Jesus is the ultimate sacrafice for our sins and covers EVERYTHING, then there is nothing we can do, short of accepting that free gift, that will keep us form God.

I'll respond to more of your post later.

Scott

 

[chevy]

Originally posted by ScottW
Exactly.

The thing is, God already knows the decisions we will make, even before we make them, even before we were created. Thus, it is very easy for God to be prophetic on events because He knows just exactly how man's free will is going to play out.

If it's already written where is my freedom ?

If it's already written why should I fight (even for freedom) ?

 

[ScottW]

PART 2

I went back and read the Good Samaritan portion of your comments and also the verses in the Bible, Luke 10:30-37... these verses speak nothing of salvation or imply (from what I read) that works save you.

Sorry for the horrible paste job...

30___Jesus replied and said, "A man was (36) going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead.
31___"And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32___"Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33___"But a (37) Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,
34___and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
35___"On the next day he took out two [1] denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'
36___"Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"
37___And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."

This appears to be more of a "treat others with respect and take care of those in need" than anything else.

The Good Samaritan laws many states have, mirror this verse. There used to be much fear that if you stopped to help someone (ie car accident) that you could be sued if you moved them or did something wrong, that could have caused them more harm. The laws in Kansas (called the Good Samaritan Law) says that you can stop help someone out w/o fear of being sued, assuming you exercise good judgement. (ie, don't kick them around, but attempt to take care of them until emergency help arrives).

 

[ScottW]

Originally posted by chevy
If it's already written where is my freedom ?

If it's already written why should I fight (even for freedom) ?

chevy... yes, this is one of those interest concepts it's hard to get ones head to wrap around. Even I, at times, have struggled with this in the past.

This is a long argument of pre-destination. If we are 'pre-destined' to accept Jesus while others aren't, then how can salvation be a free gift or choice? Are any of our choices real?

For me to understand it, I had to step back and think about it differently.

Let's say you are driving down the road and comes across the middle of the road and hits you head on. They are drunk, you die. (usual story here).

The complete story and accident are retold in the Newspaper the following day. They talk about how you had left the grocery store and where heading home to your family after a long days work, where you were VP of Engineering and a great friend to many... and how this guy was drunk and had 15 DUI's and still wasn't removed off the streets... and his actions, caused your life to be taken.

In hindsight we see the complete story.

Now, lets take God (imagine this if you will) that He can see everything that happens, past, present and future. He didn't script the life of the DUI guy or you driving down the road that day, but he saw it. He knew the choices that the DUI guy makes, and the choices you make, will at some point, bring you two head on with each other. He didn't stop it or change history or cause it... but He knew ahead of time, it would happen.

So, in essence, you do have a free will, God just knows the decisions you will make, not scripting them, but just knowing that you would make the type of decisions you would make.

Of course, to twist this up even more... you might here "prayer changes things". Well, how could my praying for someone to make it through a terrible accident really change the outcome, if the outcome is already set. Why waste my time on prayer for something I have no control over.

*this is hard for me to even grasp sometimes* But it is logical so that helps me out.

Lets go back to the story above...

chevy is driving down the road and gets hit on by a drunk driver. You don't die instantly, but are taken to the hospital in critical condition. I find out news of this, and I pray to God, asking him to spare your life (of which God may answer yes or no) and through my prayers, and hopefully others, you are life is spared, at least on this round.

Now you say, Scott... how can that be? How could prayer change things?

Well, let's go back to how God knows everything that is going to happen. Can he "step in" and change things... yes he can... just as He knows that you will be involved in a accident... he also knows that at a point in the future, I will pray for you, and He knows that at that moment in time, He will spare your life.

So, prayer does change things... but it doesn't mean that God didn't know I wouldn't prayer for you or that somehow history was changed (from his perspective) that day... but from your perspective and your family... those who prayed for you... spared you and thus history was changed.

I know that is weird and hard to grasp. But, that is the best I can explain it without repeating myself.

 

[chevy]

I'm not sure I want to continue this discussion on an open thread, because I was Christian, I know the retorics, I even teached it... and still I decided 10 years ago to follow another road.

I fully understand what you say. If (any) God would have this power, he (like us human) would be responsible for what He does and what He doesn't do. Therefore He would be responsible for all the goods and all the bads in life. And they are so many bads that it leaves no place for such a God.

I'm small, I'm just a man. I try to be great for my relatives, for my children, for my wife, for my collaborators. I try to be part of this crazy world. And I'm responsible for what I do and what I don't do. I'm far from perfect, I try to be better. The rest is outside of my reach.

 

[dlloyd]

Scott, what denomination are you affiliated with? The reason I ask is that some of the stuff that you have written doesn't fit in with what I have heard from the demoninations I have experienced.
I admit, being 13 years old, I probably don't know everything, but especially that part about Hitler doesn't ring true. I believe that he could ask for forgiveness five minutes before his death. I do not think, however, that if he would have commited all those atrocities if he had been one all along

 

[edX]

Originally posted by chevy
I'm not sure I want to continue this discussion on an open thread

let's just remember to keep this a discussion. it is not a debate. this thread is not about being right or wrong. it's about understanding how each of us applies our core belief system, i.e. their religious/spiritual beliefs, to the war and is able to reconcile those beliefs with the results of war. please refrain from stating one's views in terms of another's views being wrong. challenging or asking for clarrification of someone's beliefs is ok as long one does it without attacking the other person for having a different perspective.
one of the first steps in human relationship is gaining understanding of our individual differences. my own feeling is that none of us have a monopoly on 'truth', but that each of us would be lost without some set of truths to guide us. Better to understand another's truths than to judge them without knowing how they arrived at them.

 

[edX]

Originally posted by toast
As I am writing, French muslim 'representatives' have joined in Évry to declare that they will pray and condemn all forms of violence in their prayers. In other words, they refuse to support any side of the warmongers.

My 2¢

that's quite interesting toast, but what does it have to do with your religious views and how they pertain to your views on this war? this thread is not about imposing or propagating your views on the war or news of how the different religious groups are reacting to it - supporting or not supporting. so any more posts like this that have nothing to add to this topic will get moved to one of the war threads where they belong.

think of this thread as being like a church in The Highlander - it is holy ground and fighting will not occur here.

 

[toast]

Originally posted by edX
that's quite interesting toast, but what does it have to do with your religious views and how they pertain to your views on this war? this thread is not about imposing or propagating your views on the war or news of how the different religious groups are reacting to it - supporting or not supporting. so any more posts like this that have nothing to add to this topic will get moved to one of the war threads where they belong.

I have no religious views. I was baptied as a Christian but I have renounced to faith aged 12. However, I am very interested in what religious people think. I have read Scott's contributions and yours with great interest.

This information I posted to give another angle. Islam and catholicism share some invariant aspects, some of them obvious, some less obvious:

- First, both religions are founded on the same Book: both believe in Abraham/Ibrahim. It is said in the Quran that all muslim must believe in the Ancient Testament to be a good muslim.

- Second, and I think this fits the thread, islam is also a religion of prophecies: fatwas and jihads are respectively direct and indirect prophecies. This condamnation of war by French muslim representatives was made in the form of a fatwa, I think.

- Last, Islam is also about salvation. War is unholy, unless supported by religion itself. The last legitimate holy wars were fought during the XIIth century.

As this thread is called "War and Religion", and as this thread talked of prophecies and salvation, I thought this information about what goes on on the green side of faith could be of some value.

I do understand some explanations could have helped. Sorry