what keeps the new mac mini from being the perfect media centre computer?
- Thread starter gphillipk
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ElDiabloConCaca
U.S.D.A. Prime
To quote Steve Jobs loosely: "Blu-ray is a big bag of hurt."
That doesn't mean it's technically impossible to implement Blu-ray or that there are serious technical hurdles to Blu-ray implementation -- that simply means that the governing body of the Blu-ray format have set forth licensing restrictions and royalty payments that are much, much, much more complicated and expensive that regular DVD playback licensing restrictions. For one, it requires any manufacturer who wishes to implement Blu-ray to obtain licenses from each and every entity holding a stake in the Blu-ray format -- this is slowly changing and the licensing is getting "easier," but we're not there yet.
In the past, it was as simple as installing a DVD drive into a computer, and you're off to the races with minimal licensing. It's not as easy as slapping a Blu-ray disc drive into a computer today.
I wouldn't bet on Apple adopting Blu-ray anytime in the forseeable future. Besides, who wants three shelves on a bookcase filled with DVD and Blu-ray jackets in this day and age? Movie/video distribution is clearly going the way of digital distribution -- pushing a shiny disc into a disc drive is SO 2000. I'd rather kick back with a remote and have access to all my hi-def media stored on some kind of network storage or streaming directly from the internet -- hate the movie you're watching? Just stop it, queue up a different one, and it's playing at the push of a button. With Blu-ray, you have to get up out of your seat, remove the disc, place it back in the jacket, open another jacket, push the disc into the drive, go back to your seat, flip through the Blu-ray menus, then finally play the video. We're a nation of lazy-asses, and having to get up out of your seat is quickly becoming a burden of the past.
http://www.edibleapple.com/blu-ray-licensing-gets-easier-will-apple-be-tempted/
That doesn't mean it's technically impossible to implement Blu-ray or that there are serious technical hurdles to Blu-ray implementation -- that simply means that the governing body of the Blu-ray format have set forth licensing restrictions and royalty payments that are much, much, much more complicated and expensive that regular DVD playback licensing restrictions. For one, it requires any manufacturer who wishes to implement Blu-ray to obtain licenses from each and every entity holding a stake in the Blu-ray format -- this is slowly changing and the licensing is getting "easier," but we're not there yet.
In the past, it was as simple as installing a DVD drive into a computer, and you're off to the races with minimal licensing. It's not as easy as slapping a Blu-ray disc drive into a computer today.
I wouldn't bet on Apple adopting Blu-ray anytime in the forseeable future. Besides, who wants three shelves on a bookcase filled with DVD and Blu-ray jackets in this day and age? Movie/video distribution is clearly going the way of digital distribution -- pushing a shiny disc into a disc drive is SO 2000. I'd rather kick back with a remote and have access to all my hi-def media stored on some kind of network storage or streaming directly from the internet -- hate the movie you're watching? Just stop it, queue up a different one, and it's playing at the push of a button. With Blu-ray, you have to get up out of your seat, remove the disc, place it back in the jacket, open another jacket, push the disc into the drive, go back to your seat, flip through the Blu-ray menus, then finally play the video. We're a nation of lazy-asses, and having to get up out of your seat is quickly becoming a burden of the past.
http://www.edibleapple.com/blu-ray-licensing-gets-easier-will-apple-be-tempted/
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I don't mind carrying on this 2000 fad LOL! I moved to macs because they were relatively future-proof and blu-ray is the future. Streaming media as well. since macs are sold worldwide streaming media may not be an option to people without a fast internet connection and a generous/unlimited broadband package. blu-ray should at least be offered an option. BD burner approx $200, BD reader approx $120.
With Netflix and similars, who needs blu-ray? 
There isn't really much of the technical stuff one could add to ElDiablo's post above.
I used to buy a few movie DVDs but not really any more.
Rent the movie or get it from netflix, see it, and done. Only special ones I'd still consider getting as movies, and those would be special enough to be 4-5 a year, not more.
Or, well, the red box does it too - and I guess I wouldn't mind getting a movie to see from there, if it'll be $ 1,50 a day as it's been planned to (vs $ 1 for normal DVD).
Or I could watch them on some channels on TV, or using Slingbox too.
Despite my not-really-enthusiasm for blu-ray, there are some movies in that format in the house. Those all are viewed using the game consoles, as are most movie rentals too.
I see friends complaining that they "have to" buy again every piece of movies they already have on DVDs. Umm?? Their choice.
Sort of when they "had to" convert each and every mp3 they had to AAC and then a few years later to lossless.
What about moving to the other direction for the future media needs?
Owning and storing every piece of music and movies you've ever owned, seen, or want to see is yesterday. That's what internet radios and TVs are for. Or at least can be used for, and why not? It's a matter of taste and preference though - nothing harm in preferring them either way.
Sort of like if kindle books are or were marketed to be more future proof than paperback analog books...
Or as most office applications seem to turn to be run on a server instead of being locally installed to waste the hard drive space.
I'm seriously tempted to get one of those new Mac minis, the server one, but not as a media center. As a MacBook Pro replacement instead, supplemented by either the Dell Mini for portable needs (and laptop if/when needed for work mobility, supplied by employer), and possibly an iPad too.
So to actually use it as a desktop... (as a person who's been on laptops as main machines since '99, that would be the first time to consider a less portable option for main machine. 8 GB RAM + 500 GB + server is sexy, and it still is portable enough if I need to take it with on holiday etc).
Hm... once the technicalities will be more resolvable for adding the BR drive, wouldn't Apple TV be a more logical system for centering it around media though?
There isn't really much of the technical stuff one could add to ElDiablo's post above.
I used to buy a few movie DVDs but not really any more.
Rent the movie or get it from netflix, see it, and done. Only special ones I'd still consider getting as movies, and those would be special enough to be 4-5 a year, not more.
Or, well, the red box does it too - and I guess I wouldn't mind getting a movie to see from there, if it'll be $ 1,50 a day as it's been planned to (vs $ 1 for normal DVD).
Or I could watch them on some channels on TV, or using Slingbox too.
Despite my not-really-enthusiasm for blu-ray, there are some movies in that format in the house. Those all are viewed using the game consoles, as are most movie rentals too.
I see friends complaining that they "have to" buy again every piece of movies they already have on DVDs. Umm?? Their choice.
Sort of when they "had to" convert each and every mp3 they had to AAC and then a few years later to lossless.
What about moving to the other direction for the future media needs?
Owning and storing every piece of music and movies you've ever owned, seen, or want to see is yesterday. That's what internet radios and TVs are for. Or at least can be used for, and why not? It's a matter of taste and preference though - nothing harm in preferring them either way.
Sort of like if kindle books are or were marketed to be more future proof than paperback analog books...
Or as most office applications seem to turn to be run on a server instead of being locally installed to waste the hard drive space.
I'm seriously tempted to get one of those new Mac minis, the server one, but not as a media center. As a MacBook Pro replacement instead, supplemented by either the Dell Mini for portable needs (and laptop if/when needed for work mobility, supplied by employer), and possibly an iPad too.
So to actually use it as a desktop... (as a person who's been on laptops as main machines since '99, that would be the first time to consider a less portable option for main machine. 8 GB RAM + 500 GB + server is sexy, and it still is portable enough if I need to take it with on holiday etc).
Hm... once the technicalities will be more resolvable for adding the BR drive, wouldn't Apple TV be a more logical system for centering it around media though?
We have had this discussion elsewhere. At any rate, Blu-ray has enormous potential. However, it is just that--potential.
I own a nice Blu-ray player and am acquiring Blu-ray discs to play in it. Of course, my old DVDs play just fine. But, people need to understand that Blu-ray is not yet a consumer-friendly entertainment technology.
Case in point: The Avatar Blu-ray package advertised the movie as the movie that Blu-ray was made for. I had performed one firmware upgrade after I purchased my Blu-ray player earlier this year. I purchased Avatar soon after it was released. After inserting the disc into my player, it took its usual excessive time to boot-up. It started out with a gorgeous picture. As it played, the scene labels would not go away despite my best efforts. As the movie went on, digital break-ups and other video annoyances grew greater and more bothersome. By the time the movie was complete, it had been my worst home movie experience in memory.
A day or so later, I checked the firmware upgrade and found that a new version of the firmware was available. I downloaded and installed this second firmware update. I replayed Avatar. This time, all of the annoyances were gone. Everything was beautiful.
However, this beauty was not possible when I purchased my player earlier this year. It was not possible when I purchased my Avatar Blu-ray disc a month or so later. It was only possible after two firmware upgrades. My annoying first-time Blu-ray experience with Avatar was my Blu-ray player performing as it was designed to perform at the time.
And what of the firmware upgrades? My Blu-ray player is Internet-enabled. It is connected to my router via Ethernet. However, it cannot download firmware updates over this connection. I must download the update to my Mac, unzip the downloaded file, store the firmware image on a Flash drive, insert the thumb drive into my Blu-ray player, and then upgrade from the thumb drive. I suspect that the player cannot download the zipped file.
I consider myself to be fairly proficient in matters technical. Dumb designs may anger me, but they do not stop me if there is a way to succeed. This is, however, an unreasonable expectation of the average consumer.
For all of the caterwauling about the lack Blu-ray on the Mac, virtually all of the complaints come from people who want to convert their Macs into expensive Blu-ray movie players. There is only the very rare and half-hearted plea for the data storage capacity afforded by recordable BD.
The Mac's primary mission is that of a computer. Each component of the computer should further its primary mission. Blu-ray does not do that. I am not aware of any developer on any platform that ships software on Blu-ray. At 25-50 GB of storage capacity, Blu-ray would seem to have enough potential as a data archive medium. However, my experience with DVD-R is that DVDs are unreliable as data archives. I cannot believe that Blu-ray is any better. It represents a much larger failure mode.
Blu-ray has at least five times the storage capacity as DVD. What is ignored is that the time required to write a given amount of data to disc should be about the same for Blu-ray as for DVD. Therefore, Blu-ray should require about five times as long to burn to full capacity. Blu-ray would save physical space, but it cannot be expected to save time except the time required to change discs.
In summary. If Apple were to include Blu-ray as part of its systems, then it is expected that Apple would also keep the firmware of its Blu-ray drives up-to-date via Software Update. However, time is quickly passing Blu-ray by. Blu-ray is no longer a credible back-up medium for today's high capacity hard drives. I maintain my back-ups on a 1.5 TB external hard drive. It has 30 times the capacity of double-layer Blu-ray. As a software distribution medium, removable storage is obsolete. It is still required for retail OS upgrades. For commercial software, Internet downloads are where it's at. The last time I used a DVD in my computer was to install Snow Leopard. Adobe InDesign? Download from Adobe.com.
If Apple can untangle the licensing knots, then I most certainly have no objections to upgrading the SuperDrive to handle Blu-ray. I simply understand that it will not materially affect my computing experience.
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I've had the same issues with blu-ray players where you have to update the firmware in order to get the desired experience out of a movie. I've had the same issue on my xbox - some game could not play properly before I installed some update. same routine to update the xbox firmware with a flash stick. a mac-mini with a BD reader/writer would, hopefully, not require such rudimentary methods of keeping the firmware current.
I suppose this all boils down to preference. and whether you have already bought a BD player. I think it makes perfect sense to not purchase a blu-ray player that costs about a third of the mac-mini price and getting a smart looking, well-specced (for my needs anyway) media centre computer with a stable OS. Again I say, not everyone has access to an internet connection fast enough to stream media. For me, having a BD-specced mac mini connected to my TV and speakers represents a really good setup. I'd transfer my 50GB of music and movies, 20GB of photos and have plenty of space to spare. If I need to transfer some HD-clip from my camcorder - no problem! SD card reader at the back Hmm...webcam connected, skype on the mac..video chat while relaxing on couch...possibilities...AND I can watch a BD disc on it too! and if there's some remote possibility down the line of me copying some media onto a blu-ray disc...the point I'm trying to make here is that a BD-specced mac would be the centre of the living-room entertainment and deservedly so!
Back to my point about moving to macs because they were/are relatively future-proof. When I bought my first Powerbook, I did not need half the ports on it. I found use for all of them soon enough and kept abreast of new PCs for a good 4 years.
I suppose this all boils down to preference. and whether you have already bought a BD player
. I think it makes perfect sense to not purchase a blu-ray player that costs about a third of the mac-mini price and getting a smart looking, well-specced (for my needs anyway) media centre computer with a stable OS. Again I say, not everyone has access to an internet connection fast enough to stream media. For me, having a BD-specced mac mini connected to my TV and speakers represents a really good setup. I'd transfer my 50GB of music and movies, 20GB of photos and have plenty of space to spare. If I need to transfer some HD-clip from my camcorder - no problem! SD card reader at the back Hmm...webcam connected, skype on the mac..video chat while relaxing on couch...possibilities...AND I can watch a BD disc on it too! and if there's some remote possibility down the line of me copying some media onto a blu-ray disc...the point I'm trying to make here is that a BD-specced mac would be the centre of the living-room entertainment and deservedly so! Back to my point about moving to macs because they were/are relatively future-proof. When I bought my first Powerbook, I did not need half the ports on it. I found use for all of them soon enough and kept abreast of new PCs for a good 4 years.
ElDiabloConCaca
U.S.D.A. Prime
You're looking at this from a decidedly consumer-centric standpoint: you just care about the price of the hardware in order to play Blu-ray discs.
However, this is NOT the cost that the manufacturers incur: sure, Apple could spend X amount of dollars on each Blu-ray player and put them into their Macs that they sell... but that alone will not allow you to play Blu-ray discs on a Mac.
If I were a computer manufacturer and I wanted to include Blu-ray players and the ability to offer my customers the ability to play Blu-ray discs in those players, then I must also pay royalty fees and licensing fees to the members of the Blu-ray consortium -- each and every one of them. It's not enough to stick a Blu-ray disc drivein a machine -- that alone will only let you have a Blu-ray disc drive physically installed in the machine. In order to actually play back Blu-ray movie discs, I must then pay royalties to use the codecs to decode the videos on top of paying licensing fees to all the companies that are members of the Blu-ray group.
Being able to play back Blu-ray discs in a computer is NOT as simple as slapping a Blu-ray player in the computer. There is additional cost in the way of licensing fees that the manufacturer incurs and the end-user doesn't have any knowledge of.
It's the same with DVD players -- you can slap a DVD drive in your computer, but unless the operating system you're running includes licensed codecs to decode and play the DVD video, you're out of luck -- you're stuck using the DVD drive as a data storage medium and you can forget about the video/movie aspect of DVDs. However, DVD licensing was fairly cheap and straightforward back in the day -- the manufacturer would pay a single licensing fee and that was that. With Blu-ray, it is MUCH more complicated and MUCH more expensive for manufacturers.
Hence, Steve Jobs' remark that Blu-ray is a "big bag of hurt." He wasn't talking about physically putting Blu-ray drives in the computers (in and of itself, an extremely simple thing to do), he was talking about the Blu-ray group of companies wanting a big bunch of money (ridiculous amounts of money) for licensing and codecs to allow Blu-ray movie playback, in addition to the actual cost of a Blu-ray disc drive.
ElDiablo - quite right, I am approaching this as a consumer who wants to have an edge over the relentless progress of technology. Again my consumer viewpoint - apple, a
seller of 'premium' tech, isn't exactly poor therefore the blu-Ray licence costs must be horrendous right? Hmm...perhaps we just need to wait for next year's model!
seller of 'premium' tech, isn't exactly poor therefore the blu-Ray licence costs must be horrendous right? Hmm...perhaps we just need to wait for next year's model!
ElDiabloConCaca
U.S.D.A. Prime
Apple could buy Disney with their cash -- does that mean they should?
Apple could purchase a few car companies with their cash -- does that mean they should?
Apple could purchase portions of Microsoft with their cash -- does that mean they should?
Apple could put a toaster in a Mac for next-to-nothing -- does that mean they should?
Just because it can be done (at whatever cost) doesn't mean it should be done. Apple has consistently made good business decisions and defied the consumer electronics market downturn several times over. It's not that I'm blind, nor am I a blind follower -- but I trust that Apple has their reasons, and I trust those reasons are not, "We're Apple, and we want to screw our customers over and withhold technology from them just because we can and just because we want to be cruel."
DVD drives appeared in computers right before the time that data started being delivered on DVDs -- in other words, there was a use for them beyond simply watching a movie on your computer. I would tend to believe that when our data storage needs grow beyond dual-layer DVDs and into the tens or hundreds of gigabytes on a single, slow, optical-based disc (shouldn't be long -- Microsoft Office bloats considerably every year), we may see Blu-ray disc drives in our Mac computers... but until then, Blu-ray drives serve but one, single purpose: to play overpriced (my opinion, of course) movies -- and Apple already offers an alternative to that... and it's arguably a "better" (subjective, again, my opinion) and less expensive (on both parts: consumer and manufacturer) distribution medium. Apple may be breaking out of their "niche" status that people liked to think they have as of late, but Blu-ray in terms of computer-based data storage and delivery is most definitely a fraction of a niche at this point in time.
Steve called Blu-ray a "big bag of hurt" and explained his reasons why. I have no reason to disbelieve him. Sucks for some Mac users, but hey -- you take your lumps with Apple sometime, but in the end, one realizes that they were smaller lumps than made out to be.
Apple could purchase a few car companies with their cash -- does that mean they should?
Apple could purchase portions of Microsoft with their cash -- does that mean they should?
Apple could put a toaster in a Mac for next-to-nothing -- does that mean they should?
Just because it can be done (at whatever cost) doesn't mean it should be done. Apple has consistently made good business decisions and defied the consumer electronics market downturn several times over. It's not that I'm blind, nor am I a blind follower -- but I trust that Apple has their reasons, and I trust those reasons are not, "We're Apple, and we want to screw our customers over and withhold technology from them just because we can and just because we want to be cruel."
DVD drives appeared in computers right before the time that data started being delivered on DVDs -- in other words, there was a use for them beyond simply watching a movie on your computer. I would tend to believe that when our data storage needs grow beyond dual-layer DVDs and into the tens or hundreds of gigabytes on a single, slow, optical-based disc (shouldn't be long -- Microsoft Office bloats considerably every year), we may see Blu-ray disc drives in our Mac computers... but until then, Blu-ray drives serve but one, single purpose: to play overpriced (my opinion, of course) movies -- and Apple already offers an alternative to that... and it's arguably a "better" (subjective, again, my opinion) and less expensive (on both parts: consumer and manufacturer) distribution medium. Apple may be breaking out of their "niche" status that people liked to think they have as of late, but Blu-ray in terms of computer-based data storage and delivery is most definitely a fraction of a niche at this point in time.
Steve called Blu-ray a "big bag of hurt" and explained his reasons why. I have no reason to disbelieve him. Sucks for some Mac users, but hey -- you take your lumps with Apple sometime, but in the end, one realizes that they were smaller lumps than made out to be.