Why does such a small % of the population use Macs?

FrgMstr,
Just a coincidence. I've never heard of NLP. You've peeked my interest. I was referring more to Lingo and Actionscript.

chemistry_geek,
I agree. Same with me. I took an IQ test once and scored very high on the non-verbal and average on verbal. My SAT scores are similar, high math average verbal. The story of my life.
 
Originally posted by FrgMstr
When you say visual learners are you a user of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) or is it just a coincidence you used visual as a description.
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So what is NLP (a VERY general description)?:confused:
 
I think this is very interesting. Regarding to this test, I'm an INTJ as well.

RacerX, NLP is Neuro Linguistic Programming :p hehe
 
NLP is a way of communicating effectively with people, the objective being you the user of NLP being able to make the other person always agree with you etc. (It also has a place in brain washing in the military etc)

It works by analysing people's PTS (Prefered thinking Styles) e.g. Visual, Sound or Physical. which is where i though you got your phrase from.

this is just the dip of a very big iceberg, there is alot to it and training is very expensive. It does pay dividends in the end though, just think of the possibilities in job interviews etc.

Being able to talk to people on their level and adjust to another level at the blink of an eye must be amazing.

Im definately going to take it up seriously when i have more time.

Have a look into it on the Net if you are interested.
 
ok folks bear with me here. this may take me a few posts just catch up while i was at mwsf today.
1st) NLP is actually a way of enoding new infomation by recreating memories. the person being "reprogramemd" is told to watch the trainers finger as they pass it by the persons visual field. the finger starts in the lower part of the visual field and slopes to the upper part before the pass is completed. (this is hard to explain but easy to demonstrate if we were face to face - very simple motion). while watching the hand the peson being trained is told to imagine an event turning out the way they would have liked it to rather than the way it did. the trainer may also being giving a narative the reinforces the new memory. eg. - you were stung by bee while doing some great accomplishment. since then you have been afraid to try that thing you accomplished again. by reprograming in memory where the bee is a butterfly and flys all round you while you succede you eliminate the subconscious fear to repeat the task. (very simplified but you shouled be able to get the idea.)

this is based upon the behaviors that we make with our eyes while remembering. about 90% or more of people will look down when remembering information. they look up when creating information. there is less evidence that they will look to one side when remembering or creating the truth and the other when making something up.
hence when you are watching someone's eyes while talking, if they look down they are telling you the truth or at least what they believe to be the truth. if they are rolling their eyes upwared, they are making up what they are saying. 2 things to keep in mind - these kinds of eye movement are subtle not gross and there are some individuals who reverse them.
a friend of mine in school actually made a device using a row of moving lights to replace the hand movement when doing this, making it possible to do without a trainer.

2nd) this idea about visual learning may be more the idea of some common denominator although i think windows has made pc's easy for those of us who learn this way best (yes, i too am one)there is a subtest of the wais-III that tests for this skill. it is called digit symbol. i am sorry ican't explain more about this test, but i am bound by professional ethics not to reveal the details of this kind of testing. i would ask the rest of you to think twice before adding anymore yourselves. this would make any future testing by anyone who reads this less valid.
 
That is completely understandable. Being able to prepare of sections damages the test for everyone (if not just for the person taking the test). By the way, did I read some where that a person who scored 100 on a test given around 1917 would only score about 85 by the standards of the 90's? What does that say about the amounts of information we deal with and how we adapt to information rich environments?

Any thank you and FrgMstr for those insightd into NLP. Very interesting stuff indeed.
 
which brings me to
3rd) i can't believe that you were given the wais so repeatedly over so many years racerx - this would considerably reduce the validity of the test. i mayself can never take it because i have been trained to adminiter it. i would never consider giving it to anyone more than once every 5 years. of course when you were a child, you should have been given the wisc (weschler intelligence scale for children) which i am only minimally knowledgable of. there are a few more subtests but still that would be alot. now there is no reason you couldn't take one subtest per sitting over a year's time and then an overall established. that would be ok. i don't know what kind of special attention you were getting but i can assure you it was very unorthodox.
4th)c_geek (i never liked chemistry and i hate typing it every time so i hope it is ok if i use this in the future). as for the genes theories. keep in mind they are just that - theories. there are two camps in psychology - everything is genetic and very few things are genitic. i am a member of the latter. i say hogwash to the theory that these things can't be changed. it would take a lot of work, but it could be done. the fact is that the environment plays a large part in shaping us. we develop skills that allow us to cope in our unique environment. there is a lot of evidence for this. the hardwired gene theory is a scary one. it has been falsly used to support racism and various other types of elitism that i am oppossed to. yes we have unique genetic makeup. and yes it contributes to various ablilties. each person has strengths and limitations. but often these are more a matter of how we apply the tools we are given in order to survive or excel successfully in a given environment than lack of the full set of tools. i will supply some further clarrifications on this if neccesary but i am not willing to debate it here. there are plenty of places around the net where anyone can if they want.
last for now) dlookus- math and verbal abilities would both fall into verbal comprehension on the wais IQ test. there is very little correlation between IQ scores and either sat's or school grades. believe it or not.
 
racerx - yes i have heard the same thing about the time differences. of course it also is only theoretical. one variable that would have to be controlled for is this speed of info processing. this relates back to my point about the environmental influences and having the full toolset. since people in those times would not need to process info as quickly, they would not have exercised their mental muscles to do so. not that they couldn't have. just that they didn't need to. people like freud and jung probably did anyway. (i would bet on aristotle and plato as well).

and one other note on NLP. we still don't know why it works this way. we just know that it works. the reason it is called neuro linguistic programming is because we are assuming that we are creating new neural connections and attempting to make them stronger than the old ones thru linguistic encoding. yes, thinking is a form of linguistics in this case. self-talk.
 
ed,

math and verbal abilities would both fall into verbal comprehension on the wais IQ test. there is very little correlation between IQ scores and either sat's or school grades. believe it or not.
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I find it hard to believe that this is so black and white. What is the margin of error on that statement? 5% perhaps?;)

I admit I'm no psychologist. I can barely even spell it. All I'm saying is that a lot of me people may be turned off by text and words. I certainly feel that way. I can't work with dos or unix, and you will never see writing the kind of sagas that many people on this board do.

A lot of people have told me that good programmers are good with verbal communication. This doesn't make sense to me. When I program, no one has to understand what I'm doing except me. (That's very selfish of me. I'm sure, but I don't typically pass my code on to others.)

P.S. This NLP stuff is starting to seem really creepy
 
posted by Ed
3rd) i can't believe that you were given the wais so repeatedly over so many years racerx - this would considerably reduce the validity of the test. i mayself can never take it because i have been trained to adminiter it. i would never consider giving it to anyone more than once every 5 years. of course when you were a child, you should have been given the wisc (weschler intelligence scale for children) which i am only minimally knowledgable of.
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Actually, I didn't realize that I had taken the test (or that it was an IQ test) until I was 23. And even then, I wasn't aware of the scores on any of the test until after the last one (when they took the time to discuss the scores over all the test and reasons/solutions to the drop in verbal score). The test I took to get into Mensa was the Caltel (spelling?), on which I scored WAY better than on any of the WAIS test (I was actually very disappointed with ALL of my scores on the WAIS, if you can't tell by how I blame the creators of the test ;) ).


math and verbal abilities would both fall into verbal comprehension on the wais IQ test. there is very little correlation between IQ scores and either sat's or school grades. believe it or not.
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That explains why my wife (actually both current and x) never let me deal with money or taxes or anything that requires real math (as they put it). I would have screwed it all up. :)
 
> Why does such a small % of the population use Macs?

I did not read all the replys to this question. but I have the answer... maybe someone already said this:

People are cheap asses. They are stupid... and do not "see" something great when they see it.
 
lol -- racer you seem to have a real problem with REAL math -- but seem to love theoretical/abstract stuff ;)


I think that in order to be a programmer you need to have some verbal skills. At least in order to communicate with others. In real world programming (from what I've been told) different people (or teams) make modules and fit them together at the end of the project. If you code alone then you dont need any verbal skills whatsoever -- all you really need is understanding and that is what's in the head :)

Sometimes I have difficulty explaining to others concepts that I know by heart, because what my experiences are, and what I give as examples miight be meaningful to me, but not to others. -- in other ways though I think I have good verbal skills :p -- what sayeth thee Ed ?



Admiral
 
Originally posted by AdmiralAK
lol -- racer you seem to have a real problem with REAL math -- but seem to love theoretical/abstract stuff ;)
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Yeah, I'm not much for numbers :( . Actually I like the same things in mathematics that I like in women... curves, surfaces, singularities. The type of math I do is more like sculpting than accounting. :D
 
well basically anytime you think using words or numbers, meaningful symbols, etc. you are using verbal communication. so even a programmer must have skill in this area, but simply expresses it differently. when you think in terms of pictures, spatial relationships, actions, etc. you are using more abstract reasoning. the people who excell at both are able to accomplish some tremendous things if they choose. but since this is a very small percentage of the population, we often get better work by working in teams. this way complimentary strengths are shared and tasks hopefully get divided appropriately.
so there is a difference between both of these and social interaction abilities which falls back in the category of personality traits or clinical disorders in its extreme dysfunctional condition. these we can treat to some extent. we cannot treat IQ skills. we might be able to work with the motivations and perceptions behind someone not fully utilizing their brain power, but this is not the same as increasing their brain power. verbal reasoning/comprehension is seperate from verbal expression to some extent. there are plenty of brilliant bookworms and math geeks who have trouble communicating the complex inner perceptions to anyone else. or saying "hello" and "thanks" to someone for that matter. there is a seperate concept of being inwardly or outwardly focused. there is also the concept of locus of control - whether you are self controlled or the victim of others.
i am sure most everyone here has experienced being "too smart for your own good". let's face it, using your intelligence can have a price at times. it can be socially isolating, depressing (seeing the truth is not always a happy picture), frustrating (wanting to find solutions to things others don't know enough to care about), debilitating (when you think you can see how something will turn out when it just starts, you may be reluctant to pursue it), and stressfull (people who demonstrate exceptional skills tend to get more responsibilites placed upon them). so there can be a lot of motivation for the average guy to stay average. "ignorance is bliss" has its points.
;)
 
that phrase (too smart for your own good ) reminds me of the simpsons episode where homer found out the reason he was dumb was because he had a crayone stuck up in his head :p once it was removed his IQ just shot up hehe -- but this isolated him from everyone, especially his smart daughter :p

It's good to be smart, but you ought to be diplomatic. Putting other people down or demeaning them in public (correcting them in public is one way of doing so) is bad.


As for curves and shapes, and singularities...I like that abou women -- but not about math...everytime I try to solve equations that deal with that (solving integrals or whtever) I always manage to screw up.... stupid mistakes :p -- so I will just focus on (mediterranean) women :p



Admiral
 
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