badmouthing our president

Ed, what I mean is, no other army in the world drops bails of food along with their bombs. You should be proud of that.
 
dead people don't eat

i will never be proud of killing others. period.

believe me i hate anyone who has committed the attrocities that saddam has, but that doesn't mean i should be proud of killing as a way to correct the situation.
 
Originally posted by Ugg
There's a good chance that 50% of the casualties are also going to be under the age of 18, smart bombs or not. Also, depleted uranium is much more likely to affect the very young, the very old and the very ill. By using these WMD, GW is committing a large number of Iraqis to a slow and painful death...
GW was not forced to use the weapons that he is choosing to use. He and his cohorts will be responsible for their deaths. What does his God, or yours, MD, have to say about that?
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As a disclaimer, I will not pretend to know the intricacies of God's mind;
Isaiah 55:9 -
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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If we use "Thou Shalt Not Kill" as the only standard to base an entire war off of, I think we are missing the broader context of what the Bible has to say on the matter. The thought that pops into my mind is that there is justice that needs to be exercised. My belief is that a greater good will result from the removal of Saddam Hussein and his cronies.

To be honest, I haven't been following the war too closely in regards to the weapons being used, and I don't know what "Uranium Depletion" is. What I do know is that coalition forces are trying very hard to keep civilian casualties to a minimum (the early A.M. "surgical" Baghdad bombings.)

I'm being a little long-winded, but hopefully you all can understand my perspective a little more. I think I understand how some of you have the perception that you do; I think it would be a very good thing to just get out a little more than I do...

But anyway, that's it for tonight. :)
 
Surgical strikes already designed the Ame. atacks in 1991. Let's take a look at them:

skin.jpg


Iraqi guide, Um Guida, who lost 9 members of her family in the attack, shows the remains of human skin scalded on to the walls of the shelter?s basement. Not visible in this photograph are fingernail marks made by people who attempted to climb them whilst trying to escape the boiling water.

Source: The Fire This Time

The word 'humanitarian' applies when you send means to survive. Not means to die.
 
Toast, how about pictures of one or two of the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people Saddam has tortured and killed in his torture chambers of the last 2 decades, or did you convieniently forget about that? You got your priorities screwed up. I can't believe you would sink to the level where you need to post graphic images of death here, that's a sleazy tasteless shock tactic.

You might as well go work for Saddam as a state propagandist. In fact, by standing for Saddams right to kill, protecting him, and posting shrill anti-American rhetoric all over, that's exactly what you are.

Allow me to thank you on behalf of your soon-to-be-room-temperature hero, president Saddam Hussein.
 
Originally posted by habilis
...
I can't believe you would sink to the level where you need to post graphic images of death here, that's a sleazy tasteless shock tactic.

...
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I agree that posting that image was in bad taste. It adds nothing to the discussion, and even if it did, toast could have simply posted a link to it. There is no need for displays like that in this type of forum.
 
Originally posted by edX
dead people don't eat

i will never be proud of killing others. period.

believe me i hate anyone who has committed the attrocities that saddam has, but that doesn't mean i should be proud of killing as a way to correct the situation.
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Ed, I just want to say that I am not proud of this war any more than you are. If I were a U.S. soldier serving in Iraq this minute, I would not be proud of killing people (whoever they may be).

I am, however, proud of our troops and the great job they've done so far.
 
If I had had some picture of Saddam's atrocities (which I don't, maybe you can help me on this one, habilis), I would have posted it just beside this one. It would have made an interesting parallel :rolleyes:.

I hope you get my point at this stage. Thinking I'm ignoring Saddam's slaughters is not only insulting (I'm getting used to it), it is very telling of your general opinion about anti-war people.
 
Toast, I know you understand the devastation wreaked by Saddam, I know you're not ignoring it. I know you mean well, have good intentions, we both want the same thing - pretty much. I know it's insulting to you to hear us say you're ignoring it, but it's highly insulting to most Americans when we hear you equate us with terrorists. Implying that an American bomb was intentionally dropped on innocent Iraqi's is incredibly offensive.

America has darkness in its past yes, but that's the past. When it comes to comparing the atrocities of Saddam and his regime to the accidental destruction of some homes and people, there is no comparison in my mind. ;)
 
Quote:

Implying that an American bomb was intentionally dropped on innocent Iraqi's is incredibly offensive.

How's that saying go? The road to hell is paved with good intentions?

It may not have been our intent but innocent Iraqis were killed. Yes, we all want to see Saddam out of power, but in the end it will be America's and GW's hands that are stained with blood of innocent men, women and children.
 
there is no such thing as an accidental bomb. somebody made the decision to use it. the results of what bombs do is pretty well documented. to imply that it's your fault if you get in the way of it is insulting to all who have died of friendly fire, to all who sat in their homes for safety when they had no other alternatives.

get a grip - there is no 'right' in killing. there is no glory in war. war is not a family value. this doesn't negate the atrocities of saddam. but atrocities are not a justification for creating more atrocities.
 
you know, the biggest point i get from all our european friends who are so concerned about the bigger implications in this is that americans are very good at pointing fingers, but terribly lack self awareness of how they look when the world's finger is pointing at them.

no doubt, we resemble that remark.
 
Originally posted by edX
you know, the biggest point i get from all our european friends who are so concerned about the bigger implications in this is that americans are very good at pointing fingers, but terribly lack self awareness of how they look when the world's finger is pointing at them.

no doubt, we resemble that remark.
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Actually I would disagree. We DO know how we look, we just don't care. Just like the UK didn't care, and Spain didn't care, and Rome, etc, etc. Every country has their own agenda, at different points in time any particular country(ies) have the ability to flex their muscles and be more direct in serving their own self interests. Now is the time for the US. We can and do manipulate things to "benefit" us, sometimes to the detriment of others (and sometimes ourselves). While anyone can disagree with our actions, we are hardly unique in what we're doing.
 
binary - this is far sadder still if it is true. the future has never turned out well for all those before us who took this position. :(
 
Originally posted by edX
get a grip - there is no 'right' in killing. there is no glory in war. war is not a family value.
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Ed, I know you mean well and I can see your position. Your seem/are an intelligent person but History is not standing with you on this position. Would you have said the same thing to Moses when he came off the mountain and found the golden idle?

I don't want war just like you and most everybody else here. War in the 21st Century should be the last possible avenue.
 
Originally posted by edX
binary - this is far sadder still if it is true. the future has never turned out well for all those before us who took this position. :(
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Well yes and no (as far as the future). Great Britain, though a shell of its former self (no insult intended for any Brits out there) didn't necessarily collapse or get invaded, the "empire" merely "outgrew" itself. So maybe there is some hope for us.

Actually, those aren't the best examples, since in all cases their aggression tended to lean towards expansionism. And while there are many differing views on what this war is for/about, I don't think anyone can make an argument for that (at least not in the classic sense). My point was more to illustrate that we as a species, not any particular race/ethnicity/nationality, behave in pretty much the same predictable patterns. You can see it from the school yard to the UN, it's really human nature.

I'm not trying to be a downer, or a humanist apologist. I just don't buy the hoity toity (in my opinion) view that the US is somehow more evil than another other country/peoples. We happen to be holding the big stick at the moment, nothing more. Even countries like France held colonial rule over several African countries (amongst others) not that long ago. Not to mention the Dutch and other countries that are so peace loving now, were not so in recent history. For any of them to somehow claim that we have now honestly and truely "evolved" to some higher state of humanity is laughable. Their time has passed. If their time comes again, you can rest assured that their actions would most likely not be significantly different than ours now, or their own hardly 100 years ago.
 
Originally posted by Satcomer
Ed, I know you mean well and I can see your position. Your seem/are an intelligent person but History is not standing with you on this position. Would you have said the same thing to Moses when he came off the mountain and found the golden idle?
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i assume you mean 'idol'. and yea, i probably would have. if God is really the character depicted in the bible, then i spend a lot of time arguing with him. he doesn't even stick to the "thou shalt not kill" rule very well - ordering the israelites to attack this enemy and that. if he'd stick by his word, he wouldn't be on any side in a war and nobody who participated in them would make it to heaven. only those who refuse to participate in violence would have an afterlife. besides, i'm a pagan - a modern day 'idol worshipper'. and no, pacificism is not part of paganism exactly. however we have a certain version of it - "Harm no one shall be the whole of the law".

I don't want war just like you and most everybody else here. War in the 21st Century should be the last possible avenue.
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i agree. and i just don't feel we waited that long. we took the most convient route, not the most reasonable. and striking first is a thing that just doesn't feel right to me. this isn't wwII, this is america STARTING war. this doesn't make us better by any measure.
 
binaryd- i hear you. i guess i'm just an idealist that wants to believe that somehow america can remain better than all that have come before us as superpowers. and i criticize because i believe that is how we might do so. somebody has to be wrong. time will tell who it is.
 
Originally posted by edX
you know, the biggest point i get from all our european friends who are so concerned about the bigger implications in this is that americans are very good at pointing fingers, but terribly lack self awareness of how they look when the world's finger is pointing at them.
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Yep.

Read the following paragraph, try to understand how it's meant and see what the problem is I'm seeing.

"This country has weapons of mass destruction and is willing to use them against the will of the UN and the world. The country is fast to bomb the ones it looks down upon as enemies, again against the will of the UN and the world. Therefore, George W. Bush must be removed from his seat and a world-compatible, carefully controlled democracy must be installed."
 
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