Bush Pisses Me OFF

Soapvox

Soapvox

Want some of my Kool-aid?
What a bloddy idiot, he claims we are all soldiers, BULLSHIT!!!! I do not support the mass destruction of any civilization especially when we are the cause of the people we are fighting. It is horrible what has happened but this man is just as bad as his father, I know I am going to get flamed here but I hope you people listen carefully, the laws that they are passing are taking away our civil liberties and in fact making america exactly what the terrorist want, a nation in fear. Then he talks of invading Iraq, c'mon! We cannot be sheep, murder under any excuse is still murder, he is trying to make america into exactly what the terrorist are! There are ways to take down organizations with out killing and starving millions of innocents like we have been doing in Iraq for the last 10 years. Cut them off financialy, don't make the children suffer! And never claim that I am a soldier in your bloodbath, I will continue to protest and never let up until the killings and the actions that led up to this conflict are stopped! People we do not need violence or terrorism to bring peace, we need open conversation and fair treatment to bring peace!
 
Well, I sort of disagree with you, adamantly disagree with you, but I am not gonna flame you.

I think that we cannot really talk with bin laden, or the taliban or whomever. Why ? Simple, different mindset, different values, and different mode of operation. Some of these people can even be certified loonies. You cant have any meaningful diplomatic solution to this unless both forces stop and agree to stop attrocities.

As for we are the cause of misfortunes abroad, from what I;ve observed, if we, as america, dont intervene people wag their finger at us and say "shame on you america you let this happen!", if we do do something they say "You a-hole! Why did you get involved!" ... ah scroo that...

As for civil liberties dont wanna lose em and I think that people will fight for them, but of course I am optimistic.

Finally, you say bush is just as bad as his father. Well his father is probably his role model and probably one of his principal behind the scene advisors, thus it seems normal to me for this to be.



That is my humble opinion,
I am now open to flaming ;)


Admiral
 
Soapvox, these people we are fighting believe as hard as you believe in being passive, that it is their duity to kill Americans.

Just think about that for a minute.

I've heard you say lots about your believes. And you're pretty hard headed about them (no offence, I use hard headed only to say that you have made your mind up and don't bend much). Well, these people believe in killing Americans just as hard if not harder.

Thats pretty hard.

Also, a seccond point, and I have a follow up question when you answer this (and you may allready know what I will ask, but oh well).

Do you believe there is a distinction between the verb 'to kill' and the verb 'to murder'?

(Oh, and my questions are open to all, so please, post your thoughts!)
 
I'm as liberal as the next guy, but there are points that you seem to be missing here, Soapvox. Whether it be by propaganda or not, many of these people would just as soon shoot you than talk. These suffering children are carrying guns. I don't see a lot of innocents in many of these places.

You seem to believe what they seem to believe. We are the reason they are starving, we are why there is no food. Lets think about this. Where do these people live again? In the middle of a desert! What is their primary crop when they can grow anything... opium? Not to mention that they enslave half their population (how else would you describe their treatment of women?). And less we forget that they can't come together in large groups unless to is to fight a neighboring large group. The ONLY thing that people in that area are good at is hating others! So we are the flavor of the month, tomorrow their next door neighbor, and next week the people of the next town. This is their way of life.

We did not in any way help to create this other than lending aid. This is the worst thing we do for ANY third world nation. We see people starving so we send them help, which increases the population beyond what their natural resources can support, which leads to more starving. Here is the problem... birth rates. We have rates of 2.3 children per family, and most live to become adults. Third world families have up to 7, and due to environments about 2 live to adulthood. We add aid in the form of medicines and food, and soon all 7 live to adulthood, in two generations, these people can no longer support themselves on the resources that their grandparents lived on easily. Our aid to the "innocents" of these countries is ten times worst than any aid we have ever given to the corrupt leaders. Healthy populations over throw bad leaders, our aid has made them to weak to fight for themselves (and they expect handouts from us now anyways). If there is one thing I have learned from years of watching Star Trek, it is that interference is by far the worst thing we can do.

As for Bush, I was one of the more vocal anti-Bush people (specially for stealing the election), but he is our leader... for better or worse, and I for one will support him right up to the point where I can elect someone else to take his place. I personally feel the news media is doing more harm than good. Fear helps ratings, the media doesn't want us to feel secure any more than the terrorist do. And how nice is it to have reporters do all the intelligence work for the terrorist. You may not remember this from the Gulf war, but Iraq used TV coverage to help with aiming their missiles at Israel. I think Bush knows he is going to get as much of a boost from this war as his father did from the last one. And the media can see that they are going to make as much from this one (if not more) than the last one. Who do you think we should be more worried about?
 
Love comes back to you, aggression comes back to you... (© MTV or something).

I just don't get the idea of revenge... No one can win, ever... And this is all about revenge. Not even Bush can think he's gonna win this war. The bombs and the dead children will only create more bin Ladens and Attas. They have already won, let's minimize our (even thogh I'm from Sweden) losses.
 
soapvox, i completely agree with you! killing innocent people is sick and in no way will i ever, ever advocate it.

by "accidentally" bombing hospitals and living quarters the us are proving themselves to be exactly what the terrorists claim they are: imperialist bullies. there are ways of dealing with terrorism that go way beyond simply murdering innocent citizens of a foreign country.

all you pro-war hawks think on this: how would you feel if an american terrorist, say the militia of montana or the kkk or some other group of american loonies were to attack a building, say in russia, and the russians decided that the correct thing to do is to bomb the usa? that is exactly what is happening now. the taliban regime is not a democratically elected government, it is an oppressive regime that makes the citizens of afghanistan suffer. just because this unwelcome dictatorship supports bin laden it doesn't mean innocent afghanis deserve to die! bush's stupidity is causing the opposite of what we should want to achieve: it is making more and more people hate the us.
how would you feel if your child, your wife, your husband, whoever, got murdered by american bombs because of something somebody else did? the afghanis are suffering enough already. they should be freed from the taliban, not killed, and the same goes for the iraquis.

in no way can this conflict be compared with ww2, which was justified, as the citizens of the country being attacked did not democratically elect their so-called governments, unlike the germans did in the third reich. these people are victims themselves. where was the us "world police" so far? how has the us tried to help these people? not at all.

the americans are (i'm generalizing, there are many exceptions, but this really pisses me off) a bunch of arrogant wimps who don't care about anybody except themselves. the only time the us gets involved in situations of crisis is when it's own interests are at stake. the us government has done nothing effective about terrorism, and then, when america itself is struck, suddenly the "war on terrorism" is an important subject, suddenly all us citizens rally around the flag and want to end terrorism everywhere.

i guarantee you if it hadn't been new york and washington that been hit but moscow and st.petersburg instead, none of you would really care. none of you would be screaming for blood and vengeance the way you are now. you live in your safe little american bubbles, thinking yourself oh so important, never knowing what is actually going on in the real world outside the states. go out and buy some european/australasian/african newspapers, read some books, find out the facts.
america is not the center of the universe.

you are being fooled by a man (bush) who's only interest is to glorify himself and distract from the fact that he is an illiterate idiot who wasn't even elected properly and that his instruments of security are not functioning. where was the cia on september 11th?

racer x, i don't know where you get your information, but it is a proven fact that the us government funded bin laden and his terrorist cohorts throughout the nineties to support their battle against the russians. this just further proves american hipocrisy. it's okay to kill russians if your "battling communism", is it?

WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Dude, you're off you're rocker. I have to go to class, but I 'll leave something to mull over.

The people of Afganistan actually do support Usama bin laden. They really do. Even the Packistans support him (the people, not the government).

And its not about revenge, either.
 
... sure dude, and the people of the usa supported nixon. want to get killed for that?
... and the people of the ussr supported breshnew. kill them for that?
... the people of cuba support castro. kill them for that?
... the austrians support haider. kill them for that?

get real, man, killing people is not much of an argument, unless you're the school bully (or a criminal).
i sure as hell do NOT support bin laden, but i don't see how bush killing afghanis is better than bin laden killing americans.
they are humans too, remember?

... but then you probably think the electric chair is a cool idea, don't you? no wonder americans are considered somewhat uncultured over here in europe... *sighs*
 
Hmmmm...
I;ve got a problem with civilian casualties,
but if those civilians are in support of the taliban and Osama, then eventually it stands to reason that they will pick up arms against us. I am not saying kill em now, not later, I am just pointing out a fact. There were some 5000 men that went from pakistan to afghanistan with the sole purpose of joining the jihad against americans. Personally if I saw a paki going into afghanistan and I asked him "why are you going into AF ? Dont you know its hell in there ?" and he said " I am going to join the jihan against americans" I would kill him then and there, because later on I might not get another chance, and he might to kill me.

As for cubans and castro, castro hasnt done anything recently to threaten our well being, as a matter of fact there are a lot of cuban "exiles" faring well in the USA.

As for this idea of americans being uncoltured... I wonder how well the germans would react to a **** 747 crashing into the bavarian state police, or the gate of berlin, or how the french would react to 2 747s crashing into Notre Dame and Le tour d'eiffel. I would seriously doubt they would be objectionable (this goes for all european countries).

Personally, this may sound mean, but I WANT Osama to drive a plane into the British parliament, into Notre Dame and the Eiffel tower, into the tower of piza and the colosseum, into the parthenon and constitution square, into the kremlin and into berlin. Lets see the european values then and the french's objections to bombing afghanistan during ramadan.


Admiral

PS: finally another great subject to talk about :D (its been a while since the last one ;) )
 
I'm as liberal as the next guy, but there are points that you seem to be missing here, Soapvox. Whether it be by propaganda or not, many of these people would just as soon shoot you than talk. These suffering children are carrying guns. I don't see a lot of innocents in many of these places.

You seem to believe what they seem to believe. We are the reason they are starving, we are why there is no food. Lets think about this. Where do these people live again? In the middle of a desert! What is their primary crop when they can grow anything... opium? Not to mention that they enslave half their population (how else would you describe their treatment of women?). And less we forget that they can't come together in large groups unless to is to fight a neighboring large group. The ONLY thing that people in that area are good at is hating others! So we are the flavor of the month, tomorrow their next door neighbor, and next week the people of the next town. This is their way of life.
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We need to ask ourselves why they hate america so much. Could Osama binLaden hate us because we are imperialistic and want to "Christianize" other nations. FDR signed a pact with the Saudi family that we would protect them from within and without so we could have drilling rights to thier oil fields, how would you like it if (this is assuming you are against communist)a bunch of communist came a protected a dictator in the white house so they can come and take our oil at an unfair price, that has been what we've been doing for the past 50 years, if we were to follow our own propoganda then we would also overthrow the Saudi government, they are just as bad as the others, but we don't because instead of spending our defense fund on finding renewable energy, we choose the cheaper and more harmful saudi oil. As far as them lkiving in a desert, that does not cause them to hate americans, and those suffering children are carrying guns because we supplied them those guns. While I find the way they treat women abhorent, that is thier religious beliefs and if we were not antagonizing them then we should let them run thier country the way they wish, if we were to go after every country that mistreated people we would be a world police (more so than now) and that is not what America should be, we need to lead by example, show the women that they can have rights if they stand up for them, that is what american women and minorities did many years ago.

I also strongly agree that the media is way out of hand, they are blowing this anthrax thing way out of proportion, they should report it but nnot sensationalize it, what about all the things we are bombing, you don't see them going into too much detail on that because that way we can distance ourselves from the murder and destruction we are causing.

Do you believe there is a distinction between the verb 'to kill' and the verb 'to murder'?
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(I feel myself walking into a trap here but) No I do not, when you kill another living human for any reason it is murder and I do not buy into an eye for an eye, religion causes alot of hatred despite all the good they teach.

Soapvox, these people we are fighting believe as hard as you believe in being passive, that it is their duity to kill Americans.
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But again we have to ask the reason why, we can not be sheep and just let the government tell us that they are evil we need to ask why and see that it is because our government is a bunch of meddlers and causes hatred, people would not ask us why we don't do anything if we don't meddle in other affairs, we seem to only get involved in revolutions when the soon to be ruler is someone we don't like, but back the revolutions where the new ruler would be american friendly, that is wrong.

Again I say the attacks on Sept 11 are horrible, but don't let our machismo and missdirection dwarf the acts the they have visited upon us, and let us hope that we have learned from our mistakes from our past!
 
soapvox, i couldn't agree more ...! :)

admiral, are you sure you'd kill a pakistani wanting to join the jihad? personally, with your own hands? don't you think this is what is usually refered to as lynch mob justice? obviously, anyone wishing to join what bin laden claims is a jihad (according to muslim laws and the coran it is not, as he has no right whatsoever to declare jihad) is an idiot, but would you seriously attempt to kill him?

as for planes crashing into things in europe, thanks, but we've got enough problems of our own already ... you've been to greece often enough, you should know the situation in cyprus, in macedonia, in the balkans quite generally ... all these situations are comparable, we have had kurdish terrorists blowing up things and demonstrating in germany, but nobody here seriously believes a war against kurdistan (or turkey) is a good idea...

i just feel that the american government considers arabs and asians to be less important than europeans or americans. that's why atom bombs were dropped on japan, not on germany, in my opinion. conflicts with european nations are mostly solved in a non-violent way, at least people try, whereas conflicts with arab nations (lybia, afghanistan, iran, iraq), always lead to americans going into some sort of weird blood frenzy... i may be mistaken, but i feel i detect a bit of racism there, not necessarily on your part (i couldn't believe that of you, admiral), but on behalf of the us government and its subsequent propaganda.

incidentally, just so i don't make the impression that i'm just bashing the us:
the british and german governments are both in strong support for bush, and being a brit living in germany, i am quite ashamed of this.

how come bush has issued orders for the cia to eliminate bin laden, instead of putting him on trial? what kind of justice is this?
i, for my part, have seen no actual proof that bin laden is guilty.
i strongly believe he is, but i also strongly believe in the concept of justice, putting people on trial before a court.
even the nazis were tried after the war, and many of them got away,many to the states, which is a shameful, sickening fact.
bin laden is wanted "dead or alive" ... that's like having john wayne for president, it doesn't have anything to do with moral justice. and this from a nation that considers itself christian...
oh well... nothing we can do about it (unless bush is reading these forums...)
 
If we DON'T bring him to trial we are not showing the strength of democracy.. Lets not even bring him to trial in the US, lets put him up on charges just like Milosovic (?sp) is at the Hague. Lets show these people that even though you hurt us, our principles are still solid and in place! Great point sithious!
 
Soapvox and Sithious...I'm proud of you...

I couldn't have written it better.

War begets war...

Killing brings on more killing...

Peace will be achived "only" when we really want peace...

People talk about religion, but nobody wants to put the other "cheek".

It is not anymore about "us against them" thing.

We are all in this together, it's about consiousness, becoming really human.

We are at the level of graduation, all of us, all humanity...

If we pass the examination we will grow to a higher level.

All the signs till now, show we have very little understanding of the test,

too much ignorance, superficiality, egoism.

So, when I hear someone like you people speak with the winds of truth,

I feel a little hope for humanity, still.

Keep up the good work...
 
Originally posted by Soapvox
If we DON'T bring him to trial we are not showing the strength of democracy.. Lets not even bring him to trial in the US, lets put him up on charges just like Milosovic (?sp) is at the Hague. Lets show these people that even though you hurt us, our principles are still solid and in place!
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exactly!

and that brings home one of my points:
was milosevic assassinated by the cia? did the us government sign a warrant for him 'dead or alive' ?
that man is as much of a mass murderer as bin laden is. why the different treatment?
is it because he
- is not an arab
- didn't attack new york and washington ... ??

bin laden must be brought to trial, the oppressive taliban "government" must be removed.
but let's stick with democratic principles, let's prove our system (democracy) actually is better than their system, not only that we have better weapons, otherwise we will end up being terrorists just like them.
 
Hmmm..take things one at a time:
WOuld I kill a pakistani wanting to join a jihad,
for wanting no, will is different from pragmatism.
If he DID joing the jihad and was coming after me, or
one of my loved ones, you bet I'd kill him!

I wouldnt necessarilly do it hand to hand since I probably
do NOT have that capability.

Europe has its problems, and I know, but this problem is unlike
any that is there at the moment from my standpoint. I dont know
if the kurda bonbing up there are sponsoded by kurdistan, if they
were I bet that germany would go after them. The taliban supports
bin laden, that is why we must go after it.

I still think that europe should be plane bombed in order to comprehend.
Not just plane bombed, give em some anthrax or small pox too.

On the racism deal, I dont know about most americans. I dont associate myself with whackos of the "kkk" type. I have had and do have middle eastern friends and I have to say that they are great guys. I have nothing against middle easter people, but I cant really say that abou others in the USA since I do not not know their mindset, and its not like I walk around taking polls about who thinks what. I only speak for myself.

On the Cowboy Bush deal... just shows that he wasnt really born to be a politician, this wild west analogy just set us off as eccentrics. But I think he did the right thing with the CIA. I whole heartedly do not believe Osama deserves a trial. He deserves a quick and swift death... hmmm no, scratch that, he should be hung and shot like musollini, publically, thus to discourage others from doing such inhumane acts.

We *should* all work together
We *should* all be one big happy world...
but its not the case, and it sucks :mad:
One needs to survive and doing nothing is counter to that goal.


Admiral
 
Originally posted by AdmiralAK
Hmmm..take things one at a time:
WOuld I kill a pakistani wanting to join a jihad,
for wanting no, will is different from pragmatism.
If he DID joing the jihad and was coming after me, or
one of my loved ones, you bet I'd kill him!

I wouldnt necessarilly do it hand to hand since I probably
do NOT have that capability.
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admiral, naturally, if someone was hand-to-hand assaulting me or my family, i would defend myself/them. i am not an idiot.
still, we are not talking about defense, we are talking about bombing innocent people (children!).

Originally posted by AdmiralAK

Europe has its problems, and I know, but this problem is unlike
any that is there at the moment from my standpoint. I dont know
if the kurda bonbing up there are sponsoded by kurdistan, if they
were I bet that germany would go after them. The taliban supports
bin laden, that is why we must go after it.
Click to expand...

that's why we must go after bin laden and the taliban, not the entire population of afghanistan.

Originally posted by AdmiralAK

I still think that europe should be plane bombed in order to comprehend.
Not just plane bombed, give em some anthrax or small pox too.
Click to expand...

that, dear admiral, is sick.
we have had more bombings, wars, terrorists attacks, concentration camps than you've had hot breakfasts.
as i said earlier on: you live in your safe little american bubble. your country has not had a home war since the war of independance. you do not know what you're talking about. believe me, we comprehend what suffering is about. that is why we don't go around bombing nations all over the world all the bloody time.
i am going to assume that you said what you said in the heat of the moment without thinking. i'd be surprised if you really were that sick.


Originally posted by AdmiralAK

On the racism deal, I dont know about most americans. I dont associate myself with whackos of the "kkk" type. I have had and do have middle eastern friends and I have to say that they are great guys. I have nothing against middle easter people, but I cant really say that abou others in the USA since I do not not know their mindset, and its not like I walk around taking polls about who thinks what. I only speak for myself.
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as i said, i do not believe you are a racist.

Originally posted by AdmiralAK

On the Cowboy Bush deal... just shows that he wasnt really born to be a politician, this wild west analogy just set us off as eccentrics. But I think he did the right thing with the CIA. I whole heartedly do not believe Osama deserves a trial. He deserves a quick and swift death... hmmm no, scratch that, he should be hung and shot like musollini, publically, thus to discourage others from doing such inhumane acts.
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okay, let's do away with justice altogether. let's just hang and shoot anyone that might be a terrorist. no, let's shoot and hang everyone. admiral, are you going insane? you can't mean that seriously. what you are advocating is lynching.

without justice, democracy means nothing.
 
AdmiralAK...please...

All your writing is centered around, and I quote you...:

"I can only speak for myself"

It's not enough... not today... not anymore...

You need to grow...

To consider others as yourself too...search for wisdom because it's needed.

Right now. No more time for playing around with egos.

We all need to go deeper...

Be good...
 
Sithious,

AdmiralAK is really a good guy...

Just very young...in age and maturity...

But he will open up and go deeper with time.

Just give him time...

And good advice...from the heart...
 
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