Chimera hits 0.28

IE's advanced features...

- It has full standards compliancy.
- It's rendering pages quite fast.
- It has a page holder.
- It can save sites as archives.
- You can hide all interface elements.
- It has coloured themes.
- ...
 
one question...I'm running Jaguar and I was wondering does chimera support the QE, or does all browsers.
 
Originally posted by googolplex
And if you are so insulted by these threads please just ignore them. Stop being asses about it.

I like you guys but this really is starting to **** me off. We like chimera let us talk about it please.
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gplex, and you're not ****ing me off?

I WANT to like Chimera. I LIKE that it has all the nice Cocoa stuff.

BUT I WILL NOT STAND FOR A BROWSER THAT TAKES ALL HELL JUST TO FINISH TYPING IN A TEXT FIELD.

I CANNOT believe how many people here do not understand that. I even POSTED A MOVIE SHOWING HOW SLOW IT IS. Maybe it's my computer that's causing the problem and that since you all have a better computer, then Chimera types in text fields faster. BUT IT DOES NOT IN MINE, AND IT SHOULD NOT TAKE A 10000000 MHZ COMPUTER TO WRITE IN TEXT FIELDS DECENTLY!

Like I said, gplex, I WANT TO LIKE CHIMERA. I WANT IT TO KILL ALL OTHER BROWSERS. But it DOES NOT WHEN YOU HAVE SUCH A SIMPLE PROBLEM AS SLOW TYPING IN TEXT FIELDS.

I did not say that OmniWeb is perfect. I know that it displays many websites wrong, and that it doesn't work well for my online bank and for the online management system called Axess here at Stanford University. BUT AT LEAST IT TYPES IN TEXT FIELDS AT THE SPEED I'M TYPING.

Sheesh. This is getting way out of hand, and it seems that some people do not understand how simple this "feature" is. It's supposed to be taken for granted, but obviously the developers of Chimera do not think so. I'm sorry that it has come to this, but I do question developers who can't get this simple feature "right".

And by the way, gplex, I AM talking about Chimera. And I'm ****ed off that the developers can't get this simple thing right! So don't tell me to buzz off, because I am going to continue complaining in all of your Chimera threads until the developers GET THIS RIGHT! Other forum members of MacOSX.com deserve to hear the problems I have with Chimera so that they know TO AVOID IT if they have a "slow" computer like mine.

solrac: I AM a developer. I make Memory Usage Getter. While it is not a web browser, it is an application, and I DO have text fields in it.

Do you know what it takes to make decent typing in text fields? You PLACE THE TEXT FIELD IN INTERFACE BUILDER. That's it. When you run the program, text field typing is up to speed, no matter how fast you type. Period. So, yes, I DO know how "hard" (i.e.: read "super simple") it is to make a text field type correctly.

And don't go telling me to use TextEdit. If a web browser isn't user friendly enough to allow me to type in text fields, it doesn't deserve to be used with a workaround. Even if Chimera displayed all web pages instantly (which, by the way, it does not), I would still not use it because IT DOES NOT TYPE IN TEXT FIELDS WELL.

Get some sense into your heads people. I'm sorry that I have to get this mad, but I just can't understand why you people can't grasp the fact that Chimera ****s because of this one fact. Note that if Chimera would fix THIS ONE PROBLEM, my "rating" for Chimera would INSTANTLY go from "****s ass" to "nice browser!". Unfortunately, this problem isn't fixed, so Chimera still "****s ass".
 
Originally posted by simX
solrac: I AM a developer. I make Memory Usage Getter. While it is not a web browser, it is an application, and I DO have text fields in it.

Do you know what it takes to make decent typing in text fields? You PLACE THE TEXT FIELD IN INTERFACE BUILDER. That's it. When you run the program, text field typing is up to speed, no matter how fast you type. Period. So, yes, I DO know how "hard" (i.e.: read "super simple") it is to make a text field type correctly.

And don't go telling me to use TextEdit. If a web browser isn't user friendly enough to allow me to type in text fields, it doesn't deserve to be used with a workaround. Even if Chimera displayed all web pages instantly (which, by the way, it does not), I would still not use it because IT DOES NOT TYPE IN TEXT FIELDS WELL.
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Then, SimX, you are a dumbass. Hardcore.

You should instantly delete Mac OS X and install windows, because on Mac OS X there is no "Replace All" button for dragging and dropping files. You have to replace one by one. ANY NICE, STANDARD OS SHOULD HAVE A REPLACE ALL BUTTON!! So since Mac OS X doesn't, it ****s ass!!! Well it's a great system and it's the future despite its little flaws. There an easy work around if you learn to move files using Terminal. Chimera's text edit workaround is much easier. In fact, using Text Edit is better than using ANY browser's text field. You know I misspelled your name as SimmX 100 times, and I just did a replace all. Too bad you can't do that in your precious browser text field. Awww poor baby.

So anyway, why don't you delete Mac OS X? There's no replace all button. To me that's worse than a slow text field.

And you know what, you're a ****ty developer too. Why? Because you say that to make a textfield work well, all you do is drag it into Interface Builder. Well I'm pretty damn sure that's what the folks behind chimera did. How about if you tell me why Chimera's text fields DON'T type fast. Now THAT would be useful.
 
My lord you people get all worked up about something so simple as a browser. It seems this is the only thing we ever argue about around here. Can't find find something else to scream and moan about? :)

And now back to your regularly scheduled program...
 
Originally posted by solrac


Then, SimX, you are a dumbass. Hardcore.

You should instantly delete Mac OS X and install windows, because on Mac OS X there is no "Replace All" button for dragging and dropping files. You have to replace one by one. ANY NICE, STANDARD OS SHOULD HAVE A REPLACE ALL BUTTON!! So since Mac OS X doesn't, it ****s ass!!! Well it's a great system and it's the future despite its little flaws. There an easy work around if you learn to move files using Terminal. Chimera's text edit workaround is much easier. In fact, using Text Edit is better than using ANY browser's text field. You know I misspelled your name as SimmX 100 times, and I just did a replace all. Too bad you can't do that in your precious browser text field. Awww poor baby.

So anyway, why don't you delete Mac OS X? There's no replace all button. To me that's worse than a slow text field.

And you know what, you're a ****ty developer too. Why? Because you say that to make a textfield work well, all you do is drag it into Interface Builder. Well I'm pretty damn sure that's what the folks behind chimera did. How about if you tell me why Chimera's text fields DON'T type fast. Now THAT would be useful.
Click to expand...

Your analogy is flawed, solrac. Why? Because I don't use the "Replace All" feature as much as I do typing in a text field. In fact, I haven't really run into that problem except once or twice in my usage of Mac OS X. In contrast, I would run into the text field problem more than 100 times a day because I come to MacOSX.com every day. So while my productivity would go down 100 times if I used Chimera instead, my productivity using Mac OS X has gone down 0.000001% because of the "Replace All" problem. And that has been offset by the increase of productivity with the features like pre-emptive multitasking, and protected memory.

The point is, it's the OVERALL EXPERIENCE. And since I use text fields every day, the OVERALL EXPERIENCE with Chimera goes tumbling downhill because of this bug. The OVERALL EXPERIENCE with Mac OS X has actually gone up from Mac OS 9.

Oh, and by the way. I don't need the Find/Replace feature from TextEdit because I spell all names of users and almost all words correctly the first time I type it. So that point has been made pointless, too.

And then you call me a "****ty developer" because I can't tell you why Chimera's text fields are so slow. NEWS FLASH: I DON'T WORK ON CHIMERA – I work on Memory Usage Getter. But I know how to make a good text field, and it's very simple. It's pretty dang hard to muck up something like that. So I'm not going to waste my time trying to find the problem, because OmniWeb fits me perfectly.
 
Sim, calm down.

We all know text fields are slow. You don't have to tell us. If you would like to try to speed them up why don't you. I don't think its as simple as you say. Optimization is very hard. Again, the browser is 0.2.8 why do you expect it to do this perfectly? There is one main developer on this project now and he is very busy working on Mozilla as well. Could you give this guy a little respect. I'm sorry I like talking to you but this is really starting to bug me. You're worse then Ed was argueing over Mozilla way back when.

And if you want to take cheap shots at developers how about this. I remember that Memory Usage Getter was very slow when refreshing. How can you not get this *simple* feature to work properlly. "Unfortunately, this problem isn't fixed, so" MUG "still "****s ass". Your software is above 1.0 too.

How do you like it?

I don't mind you saying that the problem still exists, but you (and others) coming in here and being rude and starting a fight over it is annoying.

I really don't want to fight.

I think most of us just want to follow this software through its development stages even though it has some problems. Nobody is telling you to use it or like it.

I think you need to learn to appreciate that this isn't a simple issue it is probably a very complicated optimization issue. And that there is one developer (well there are a few people who contribute but not that much) working on it now AND he is on vacation. We understand that it is slow we are just willing to deal with it because we like the rest. Also these aren't cocoa text feilds. They are the text feilds in Mozilla with a cocoa interpretation layer. Chimera is much more complicated then it appears. The long term plan is, however, to convert the form widgets and drawing engine to pure cocoa.

There are lots of little "one problems" for different people. They are fixing them one by one. They just fixed the download dialog. They will get to this in time, but as I hope you can see this kind of thing takes a lot of time, especially with so few developers who are busy with other things as well.

I don't want to fight so please don't make me. And if you want to debate this, make it a debate not a flame war.

And solac, don't insult sim. This doesn't have to be a flame war.

Phew. :)
 
Regarding the "simplcity" of drag and drop textboxes in interface builder... Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the widget placement be highly different between creating an app with fixes textbox locations and one that is dynamic based on HTML? I mean, the browser has to parse the HTML and figure out where the widgets must reside, so the elements are NOT simply drag and drop as in interface builder.

I don't know for certain what is entailed, but I can imagine there must be some difficulty involved.
 
As I said these aren't cocoa text boxes. They will be eventually, but as of now they are a kind of text box mozilla renders using XBL. I could explain it now, but just know that they are different. They became slow when they applied quartz text to them. I am sure they are working on this problem.
 
gplex: I don't really need to calm down -- I'm perfectly calm even if it seems not in my posts.

What bugs ME is that you guys keep saying that Chimera is the end-all-be-all of a browser, but you guys keep telling me that there's something wrong with my computer. It's Chimera.

Again, gplex, you make a flawed analogy just like solrac did. Memory Usage Getter's refresh method in AppleScript is very complicated, and it calls subroutines to actually display the information. I'm sorry, but it just isn't something as simple as typing in a text field.

I don't particularly care if it is a Mozilla/Cocoa interpretation layer or what that is. If it's Cocoa, then it has the ability to use Interface Builder to place text fields. But since Chimera apparently isn't using them, then it has these "optimization" problems. But text fields in true Cocoa applications don't have "optimization" problems.

Like I said, people deserve to know that text fields in Chimera don't type decently on "slow" computers. And you guys can flame OmniWeb as much as you want in "OmniWeb v.x.xspxx released!", saying that it doesn't have good standards and renders 10-15% of the pages incorrectly. But don't say that typing in a text field is as complicated as a rendering engine – it simply isn't.

And therein lies my beef with these developers – Cocoa is designed to be simple, not something that needs a Mozilla/Cocoa interpretation layer. But nevertheless, the developer seems to be concentrating on features that are not nearly as important as text field input, and so I question the future of Chimera.
 
Originally posted by simX


Your analogy is flawed, solrac. Why? Because I don't use the "Replace All" feature as much as I do typing in a text field. In fact, I haven't really run into that problem except once or twice in my usage of Mac OS X. In contrast, I would run into the text field problem more than 100 times a day because I come to MacOSX.com every day. So while my productivity would go down 100 times if I used Chimera instead, my productivity using Mac OS X has gone down 0.000001% because of the "Replace All" problem. And that has been offset by the increase of productivity with the features like pre-emptive multitasking, and protected memory.

The point is, it's the OVERALL EXPERIENCE. And since I use text fields every day, the OVERALL EXPERIENCE with Chimera goes tumbling downhill because of this bug. The OVERALL EXPERIENCE with Mac OS X has actually gone up from Mac OS 9.

Oh, and by the way. I don't need the Find/Replace feature from TextEdit because I spell all names of users and almost all words correctly the first time I type it. So that point has been made pointless, too.

And then you call me a "****ty developer" because I can't tell you why Chimera's text fields are so slow. NEWS FLASH: I DON'T WORK ON CHIMERA – I work on Memory Usage Getter. But I know how to make a good text field, and it's very simple. It's pretty dang hard to muck up something like that. So I'm not going to waste my time trying to find the problem, because OmniWeb fits me perfectly.
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I don't care if you never use the replace all button. I don't care if 100% of your browser experience is spent in a text field.

I'm talking about your mindset, not the feature set you use.

Your mindset is close minded, accusational, and belligerent.

I called you a crappy developer because you just proclaimed Chimera to be lame because it has a bad text field, and saying it's super easy to make a text field, without any knowledge of why Chimera's field is bad.

If you were a good developer, it would not matter whether or not you worked on Chimera. You wouldn't even post that until you got a message through to Chimera developers and heard why the text fields were broken. Or you could have an educated guess, at least.

But instead you go yelling that the text fields are horrible and are super easy to make and because of that you hate Chimera and call them bad developers, and on top of that, BECAUSE of that, you refuse to try it.

Chimera is BEST in forums. It renders forum pages (like macosx.com and off-topic.net especially) at exactly (literally) one hundred trillion times faster than IE.

And one day, I don't know when, but one day you'll need to replace 50 files. Then when you have clicked replace 50 times your productivity on Mac OS X will drop from .00000001% loss to like 2% loss. There's no math behind this.

And since Chimera renders macosx.com at (exactly) one hundred trillion times faster than IE, using TextEdit as a workaround is not only a bonus for learning a new good habit, but is also worth it since Chimera, even as it is in its suuuperrr beta state, increases productivity in my Internet experience by (literally) a trillion fold.
 
Originally posted by googolplex
As I said these aren't cocoa text boxes. They will be eventually, but as of now they are a kind of text box mozilla renders using XBL. I could explain it now, but just know that they are different. They became slow when they applied quartz text to them. I am sure they are working on this problem.
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googolplex, I totally respect you as a developer, and not SimX, because of the cool information you presented about Chimera using a Cocoa interpretation layer to convert a Mozilla XBL textox into a Cocoa one, which slowed down when quartz effects were applied to it. I don't even know what half of what I just said means but it makes sense and shows that you're knowledgeable about such things. Of course I would still want to validate your statements with more opinions but it sounds really good and sensible. That's cool info to know, thanks dude.
 
Whatever you say, solrac.

Why should I be a developer and investigate the slowness of Chimera's text fields? I'm a user of Chimera, and all that I care about is the usability. And because of the text field problem, it's usability for me is virtually zilch. I don't care WHY or HOW it achieves this slowness – but the fact remains that it is SLOW. So that's why I'm complaining. And no, I won't use TextEdit with Chimera, because OmniWeb is just as fast for me. Couple that with the advanced features that OmniWeb has, and my productivity is higher with OmniWeb than with Chimera + TextEdit.

I am not close-minded, or all the other things you accuse me of. I am an end-user with regards to a web browser, but I know about Cocoa development as well in limited applications. But being a developer is basically irrelevant in this context, because it has to do with my productivity and Chimera's usability.

And, yes, I have done the whole deal with having to click "Replace" 50 times. But, sorry, that doesn't make my productivity go down 2%. All of the features of Mac OS X have totally offset the 1 or 2 times that I've done that, so my productivity has gone down 0.000001%. Oh, wait, I take that back – it's gone down 0.000002% because I've done it twice.
 
Sim,
OK chimera is not fully cocoa. The engine is a hybrid. Its difficult. Just like the refresh method is complicated this is 100 times more complicated. It is complicated to convert the engine to full cocoa. Do you want to try it? I don't think you do.

And I think that I have been very fair to omniweb. I have never flamed in the omniweb threads like the chimera threads get flamed. I don't say it render 10-15% only. It is pretty good and it is an amazing browser. I just like following the development of chimera. I didn't say that it is as complicated as writing an entire engine. The omniweb guys are doing a great job and I really love using their browser. I just wish it had some better standards support. The difference is, I don't go into those threads yelling about it. I might state that I wont use it as much because of that, but I don't go in and call it a joke or say it ****s ass.

And David Hyatt is concentrating on valueable features. There were many more requests for things like Plugin support and usable downloads. They have done these. Post something on the chimera newsgroup/mailing list (you can find it on chimera.mozdev.org) and bring it to their attention more.

Anyways, I'm going home now so I wont be able to reply as quickly :)

And btw, no hard feelings its just an arguement :)

UPDATE: You are expecting everything to work for the average 'end user' in a 0.2.8 alpha release. That isn't the case with any software.
 
Originally posted by simX
Whatever you say, solrac.
I don't care WHY or HOW it achieves this slowness – but the fact remains that it is SLOW. ...

I am not close-minded, or all the other things you accuse me of.
Click to expand...

I just hilited a massive flaw :D

Anyway, it makes you close minded that you do not care WHY or HOW. If you took the time to learn, you'd improve as a developer, and as a person, too! :D

I can't learn, really, since I know NOTHING about software development, but I still manage to learn by reading and remembering posts from developers like googolplex, and at least I have an idea now. (So do you if you read his post.)

Anyway, don't get me wrong. I appreciate the fact that you need text boxes so badly, and that you NEVER use "replace all". I was just talking about mindset, though.

My thing is that for me, and this is riduculed by all my friends too, is that the web browsing experience on mac is PURE CRAP. Chimera single-handedly fixes this. Now it is possible for a mac to load a page ALMOST as fast as a PC, only with Chimera. Is this not more important than a damn text box?

If this was a 1.0 release I'd be complaining about the text box too.
 
I expect text fields to have decent typing speed in an alpha release, yes. If that is your definition of "everything", then so be it.
 
Originally posted by simX
I expect text fields to have decent typing speed in an alpha release, yes. If that is your definition of "everything", then so be it.
Click to expand...

arrghh! It's not even a text field. It's a Mozilla XBL rendered dynamically placed input box being interpreted into a cocoa text field through an interpretation layer which is now having a quartz effect applied on it. Sigh, oh well. Whatever dude.
 
Like you said, solrac, you had no idea either of half of that last sentence, and neither do I (although I understand the concept).

Well, yeah. Whatever. It's still really annoying, though.

gplex: Where do I report bugs, anyway? I don't want to join the Cocoa development list just to report something like this..
 
1.) Some Answers

Originally posted by solrac
arrghh! It's not even a text field. It's a Mozilla XBL rendered dynamically placed input box being interpreted into a cocoa text field through an interpretation layer which is now having a quartz effect applied on it. Sigh, oh well. Whatever dude.
Click to expand...

Well, that's an explanation of why it's slow now. It also fits the name 'chimera' very much. From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913): "1. (Myth.) A monster represented as vomiting flames, and as having the head of a lion, the body of a goat, and the tail of a dragon. ``Dire chimeras and enchanted isles.'' --Milton."

2.) About The Heat

All those browser threads are getting way out of hand. Developers calling themselves experts. What do *I* care? SimX is right: Text boxes should plainly work. It's *nice* that Chimera has some speed, but it's just as I've said when it first popped up: It's gonna take a long, long time until it becomes a real alternative. Browsing fast is one thing, the interface is at least as important. Chimera is - right now - what the name says (see 1.)): A multi-headed monster.

3.) Browser Wars, Browser Choices

It's good to have choices. For the consumer, browser wars are good. We're getting better browsers, right? These discussions however are getting on my nerves, although I *too* like to push my choices (OW rocks). Can we agree on the following? -> All current browsers for OS X have something going for them. Mozilla is opensource and has good standards compliancy, IE has advanced features and standards compliancy, OW is a good Cocoa application with many advanced features and Chimera has shown that speed is possible.
 
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