Former VP Al Gore on Apple board of directors

[edX]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Yeah, that Liberty Tattoo removal program in SF was a real example of tax dollars being used badly.

Are you really anti-war? Were you just as vocal about your opposition during the Somalia conflict, the Kosovo conflict, or Operation Desert Fox in 1998?

This is what bothers me. It is complete hipocrisy, in my view, when the vast majority of antiwar people never batted an eyelash when Clinton sent troops in to harms way. Their main opposition to this conflict is that there is a Republican in the White House.

actually i was somewhat vocal about being against war in all these conflicts. i certainly didn't have a public medium like a forum in which to voice my opinions and thus only friends and family heard them. on the other hand i could understand these other conflicts in terms of war already having broken out and our getting involved to stop it. i still didn't like or support the idea of war and was very much against those who had started it in the first place. and i was probably as disappointed as anyone when saddam wasn't removed from power during the gulf war. if things had been handled properly, then we wouldn't be in this mess today. and yes, i voiced that opinion then.

also, while i tend to lean towards democratic leaders, that is hardly my beef. if a democrat were in office and doing the same thing, i would have to take the same stance. I've seen lots of republicans i like and admire. i even have close friends and family members who are republican. Gerald Ford is on my list of the great presidents of my lifetime. why - because he didn't screw anything up. he may not have done much, but he didn't mess with anything either. he just played golf and let the country run itself for the most part. on the other hand, LBJ will always be one of my most hated presidents. Vietnam was his fault. as much as i dislike nixon for so many things, i will always like and respect him for ending vietnam and for opening diplomacy to to other nations in unprecedented ways. i could go on with a long list of examples like this.

As for your assertion that $80K /year is enough to live on in Atlanta. Phooey.

First of all, that $80K was a combined family income before taxes. That's $80K for a family of three. Second, with that combined income, we are in a tax bracket that is close to 40%. Add in property taxes, sales taxes, small business taxes, etc., and the reality is that my wife and I have to work from Jan. 1 through June 10 just to pay the tax burden. It is very near 50%. That is borderline slavery. When you exist to support the state, it's getting real close.

you're right, it's presumptious of me to know what your real financial situation is. for a 2 income family that really isn't a lot. but it certainly is more than a lot of people have. as for your taxes, i would certainly hope that you are making some charitable tax deductable contributions to causes that you believe in, thus at least taking some control in the redistribution of your income.

And yes, I am aware that taxes go to fund the military. The Bush 2003 tax cut isn't finished yet. Actually, the House passed a version of it this week. It's going to be tougher in the Senate, but my guess is about 75% of it will get passed.

we'll see. depends a lot on how much this war and the aftermath are going to cost i guess.

Another misconception - I'm not pro war. I hate war, but realize that the only way to neutralize a threat from a murderous dictator is to remove him by force. This mission, at least to me, seems a heck of a lot more legitimate than Kosovo, or even Op Desert Fox. But as I said, since a Republican is in the WH, the antiwar crowd (who are being funded by serveral American Communist outfits, btw) are against it.

i've said again and again - the big difference is that here we are the ones striking first. all the 'pre-emptive' rhetoric. and while saddam's attrocities are being used as justification for the war, they are npt the reason for the war. if they were, we should have invaded Iraq back in the Reagan years or earlier. also, by that reasoning, are you ready for us to start full out campaigns against all the places in the world where these kinds of attrocites take place? saddam and iraq are hardly unique examples. just how much of what goes on in the world are we to be the ones to control? one could certainly point back to our own years of institutionalized slavery and decimation of the native americans as proof that we haven't been all goody 2 shoes either. i'm not implying we should have any guilt over this, merely asking "where do we draw the lines?"

Not gonna happen, and I'm glad. I love Macs, and want Apple to succeed and capture a larger chunk of market share. But I really don't want my tax dollars being spent on buying Macs for the Gov't, unless they are appropriate for a specific task.

yea, but there are plenty of tasks for which they would be appropriate and in the long run they are a better deal. economically, environmentally, shelf life, etc.

Gore will have little to do with day to day stuff at Apple. Look at what the other board members have done for Apple, other than sit in on meetings... Not much. The last thing Apple wants to do is use Gore as a visible "face" for Apple. I would guess, judging from the makeup of this country, that 50% of Mac users are right leaning, and do not have a favorable opinion of him. If Apple is crazy enough to alienate these users, then they deserve their fate.

actually, i think you'll find that most mac users are bit to the left. probably more middle of the road. it just goes with the whole 'think different' thing. and you're right of course, Al won't have a whole lot to do being on the board. but i would guess he was brought in for a reason. it will be interesting to see what it is.

Don't worry Ed, next time you have a Mac OS X question, I'll be here for you too.

good to hear. i'm still trying to figure out this issue with my external drive. it stalls while writing large numbers of small files. i know this is a know issue with os x, but my other drive doens't do it, so there's got to be something more going on.

Finally, the Little Red Hen is a popular childrens story. You can refresh your memory here- http://www.ri.net/schools/Central_Falls/ch/heazak/hen/hen.html

still not sure i know this one, but the basic premise is nothing new. nor anything i disagree with. in reality, this could just as easily be used to support collectivism as it is an important concept that all those who can contribute do so. it's actually capitalism that sets up a condition where this kind of non cooperation is allowed. the problem with this kind of simplification at the moment is that there aren't always enough jobs for people who are willing to pitch in and work. and with some things, having too many helpers actually slows the process down. better to take turns baking the bread than to never get the bread baked.

Ed, it's always a pleasure...

i don't know if it's really 'a pleasure', but it's always informative and educational. in short - a good thing.

take care.

 

[Arden]

In some respects, I'm glad serpicolugnut will not be returning here to continue his mudslinging, but I did find them amusing. I tend to side with Racer X and edX on the issues spat back and forth. I believe Bush and his administration have done more harm than good for this country and the world (maybe 65%-35%) but I don't have the time to put all my arguments into typing.

I believe Al Gore will be an excellent addition to the Apple Board. He's plenty smart, he helped run this country in prosperity for eight years, he got the Internet going (Vinton Cerf and Tim Berner-Lee actually invented the networking basis of the Internet), and he's not as stiff-necked and boring as people make him out to be. I think anyone who saw him on Letterman will agree with me.

edX, what exactly is the difference between a moderator and an administrator? Does a moderator merely manage a category while an administrator runs the behind-the-scenes and offline part of the web site?

 

[edX]

arden - we have moderators who are volunteers who watch over a forum, or even a few, and help maintain site policy. each forum but the classifieds, has at least 2 of these. some of these are also super moderators, which means their moderation powers are enabled in all forums so that if they run across anything first while surfing the site, they can just deal with it. then we have 3 admins - one who does all the offline work of maintaining the site. that would be ScottW, also the site owner. themacko and i are co-admins of the day to day stuff. essentially it comes down to us how policy will be interpretted and enforced, who the moderators are, etc. themacko handles mail from members who are experiencing trouble with the site while i spend more energy on managing the moderators.

all of us work together 'behind the scenes' to discuss issues and keep things running as smoothly as possible. we all worked together as a team to bring you the new forum organization for instance. but the mods are hardly a bunch who sit around and nod their heads for us, nor do we expect them to be. we have our debates about how to make this site the best, just as we debate out here about how to make the world the best. in the end, we make a decision and work together to implement it as best we can. but when push comes to shove and we can't agree as a group, then the admins get final say. admins are also the only ones with the power to access the control panels for the site and do things like ban a person. a mod has the power to police and enforce, and bannings are made from their recomendations, but they need an admin to physically do the ban. you pretty much have to be trying to piss us off to get banned though. we're fairly tolerant of mistakes and the occasional emotional response from an other wise responsible contributing member.

i also think it says alot about the adminstration of this site that scottw and i have almost opposite political views. yet we work together with respect. i even consider him a friend. but we both know how to agree to disagree at a certain point and to be ok with someone being different than us. and we apply that same philosophy to discussions like this.

uh, does that answer your question or did i give you way too much information about something else?

 

[serpicolugnut]

In some respects, I'm glad serpicolugnut will not be returning here to continue his mudslinging, but I did find them amusing.

Don't soil your panties just yet arden. Your favorite hexagonal irritant never said he was leaving macosx.com. He said he was done pontificating on this thread. I'm staying put, if for no other reason than to spread my infinite wisdom to those lacking such areas.

Yes, that is sarcasm.

 

[Arden]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
He said he was done pontificating on this thread.

That's exactly what I was referring to. Was I unclear?

 

[RacerX]

serpicolugnut, 03-22-2003 0119 GMT:
Come next week at this time, Iraq will be liberated, and the people of that country will be externally grateful. The stock market will have risen another 500-750 points (it's already risen close to 1000 in 8 days - the biggest 8 day jump in 20 years), oil prices will be in the low-30's a barrel and dropping, and Bush's popularlty will have surged another 10 pts. to around 80%. God - it must make you sick . (But, hey I'm a realist and realize that his reelection is still very much in doubt).

It has been a full week, lets look at how these predictions have held up.

• Iraq has not been liberated, the people are not extremely grateful, and in some parts of the country things are far worse than before. Most notably, the lack of food and water in some of the southern cities and the threat of Turkey invading from the north if the Kurds look like they may try to form a separate Kurdish state.
  
• the last I checked, the stock market wasn't up 500-750 points from it's close last week. Actually it has dropped about 400 points in this period.
  
• I don't know how oil prices are doing, but that rarely translates into gas prices. As I recall one of the biggest drops in oil prices happened within a week of September 11, 2001. It dropped to the low $20's as I recall (though I don't seem to remember where it started from).
  
• Bush is not surged on the polls another 10 points. The last I saw he had dropped to below 70%.

And then there was the God - it must make you sick comment. People I care for have been effected in this war already, and yes I have had a sick feeling thanks to that.

Another thing that has made me sick is the ultra nationalism that has been displayed by supporters of the war. I'm personally embarrassed that they are Americans. They reflect badly on the principles that have always made this country great.

I find it sad that so many people feel such a need to hate others. Some would say hate is too strong a word. Actually it doesn't even come close to what some people have been displaying.

Something for those who remember and want to learn from history. Germany between World War I and World War II started generating a strong feeling of nationalism in it's people. They started to direct their fears and hardships that the people were feeling into hate. That country felt that it was right to invade others, and the people who spoke out against those acts were (very much like now) persecuted by others for their feelings. Later they would be rounded up with other enemies of the state.

I don't want us to be that type of country. I would hate to think that we, as a people, are that little in spirit.

 

[nickn]

Can you say off topic? Mods? I actually honestly brought this post up from the recent posts...to realize it had 0 , nada, absolutely NOTHING to do with apple news or rumors.

I'm not even going to comment on the post itself.

 

[edX]

nick - check the site rules. staying on topic is not one of them. good threads often come from tangential material. this is one case of that. read enough threads around here and you'll find others as well. despite all the claims otherwise, we aren't facists around here. we have a few forbidden topics, for good reasons in our way of thinking, but outside of that, people can feel free to speak their mind.

 

[nickn]

Hm..

I'm not saying the topic is wrong by any means, and I believe removing posts is wrong, however it makes no sense to have a topic on war in the apple news and rumors section.

You say read others..all the ones I've read (notably not as many as others) I've had very few where I've clicked it and had a 100% different topic then what the post says.

You jump to the conclusion that I didn't support what RacerX was saying..it wasn't that at all. however why have different forums if threads are going to get that far off? I guess this being one of a few threads I havent' followed if I read it all I'll realize how it got THIS far off track.

Live and learn I guess....

 

[edX]

no, i didn't assume anything about how you felt about RacerX's views. but if you did follow the whole thread, you would see that it started out with apple news (as per the thread title) and that led to a political discussion - not that big of a tangent considering who Gore is and the current climate in the world. now, hopefully those of us on the pro Gore side will be just as right about what Gore will add to apple as we were about this war being something more than a quick police action. Hell, saddam might have glady given up all his weapons if we'd offered him macs in exchange.

ps - forums with topic police are a pet peeve of mine we try our best to put the original post in the forum it belongs and after that it can have a life of its own.

 

[Arden]

I'm 18 today, and I'm all comfortable wrapped up in this blanket, sitting in front of the computer at 1:30 a.m. (er, excuse me—0130 hours).

How's that for off topic?

I support Al Gore, and I would have voted for him had I been old enough in the last election. Just look at what Bush has done for this country, especially our economy. In today's (yesterday's, now) Modesto Bee's Opinions section, someone had an article about the fact that low-income programs like Medicaid are undergoing massive cuts to satisfy the federal budget, just so Bush can give money back to the rich corporations and fat cats in this country. Disgusting.

 

[serpicolugnut]

Iraq has not been liberated, the people are not extremely grateful, and in some parts of the country things are far worse than before. Most notably, the lack of food and water in some of the southern cities and the threat of Turkey invading from the north if the Kurds look like they may try to form a separate Kurdish state.


the last I checked, the stock market wasn't up 500-750 points from it's close last week. Actually it has dropped about 400 points in this period.


I don't know how oil prices are doing, but that rarely translates into gas prices. As I recall one of the biggest drops in oil prices happened within a week of September 11, 2001. It dropped to the low $20's as I recall (though I don't seem to remember where it started from).


Bush is not surged on the polls another 10 points. The last I saw he had dropped to below 70%.

Nearly 50% of Iraq has been liberated. We've not taken Baghdad or Basra yet, but we've advanced more in a week than any other army ever has.

As for the stock market, well all it takes is one piece of news good or bad, and it surges 200-300 points. It's at approx 8150 now, up about 650 points from when the war stated. It could dip again, but when all is said and done, it will be back in the 9000's.

Oil prices translate directly into Gas Prices. They started going up before the war on fears that it could affect the US supply. It started dropping right after the war began because OPEC pledged to increase production during the war.

You think that people displaying their national pride makes you sick. I'll tell you what makes me sick:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82395,00.html
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,207~12026~1234836,00.html

It's funny how anti-war protests can be some of the most violent displays of freedom of speech...

Nice attempt at comparing the present US admin. to that of Germany between WWI and II. I love it when people twist history to fit their agenda. Please, tell me - where we have stated we hate the Iraqi people? Please tell me where we have stated our superiority over the Iraqi people? Please tell me where we have rounded up Iraqis and sent them to concentration camps? We haven't, and your comparison is full of liberal hot air.

But, let's learn from history for a moment, and since you are fond of using Germany, lets use them as an example. In the 1930's, Germany was involved in all the acts you stated. They were invading neighbors, and spreading through Europe quite fast. However, some appeasers, namely Neville Chamberlain thought he could make a deal with them and spare the UK. Stalin thought he could make a deal with them and avoid direct conflict. Hitler renigged on both of those deals and the rest is history.

After the war, even Neville Chamerblain himself admitted he was wrong, and should have addressed the Hitler threat before it got to big.

Once again, my favorite quote from Albert Einstein...
The World is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything.

And finally, arden...
It's no surprise you are 18 and would've voted for Gore had you been old enough. When I was 22 I voted for Clinton. I thought I knew everything, as you probably do too (I didn't), and his class warfare speeches rang loudly in my just over minimum wage life. The funny thing is, as I became older, and more successful, and started making more money - I realized the "evil rich people" they were referring to was me - even though in my eyes I was hardly rich. Take my advice -be suspicious when a politician demonizes a certain segment of the population for their political gain (as Hitler did with the Jews, Democrats do with people who make more than $35K/year).

 

[nickn]

To add to things taht make me sick...how about this link :

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03/28/sprj.irq.professor.somalia.ap/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82532,00.html

And I posted both links so you saw it from what is considered both liberal and conservative media...(at least by most..)

 

[RacerX]

by serpicolugnut:
be suspicious when a politician demonizes a certain segment of the population for their political gain

Actually you should be suspicious of anyone who demonizes anyone else. To date, serpicolugnut is the only person to engage in personal attacks within this discussion. This should not be a surprise as he has had a hard time making his facts (or predictions) hold water.

You think that people displaying their national pride makes you sick.

and

It's funny how anti-war protests can be some of the most violent displays of freedom of speech...

I'm not one of those people so I can't speak on their actions. On the other hand your actions within the confines of this forum qualify not as national pride but of venomous anger and hate. Again, it should be noted who is the only person to engage in personal attacks.

But, let's learn from history for a moment, and since you are fond of using Germany, lets use them as an example. In the 1930's, Germany was involved in all the acts you stated. They were invading neighbors, and spreading through Europe quite fast. However, some appeasers, namely Neville Chamberlain thought he could make a deal with them and spare the UK. Stalin thought he could make a deal with them and avoid direct conflict. Hitler renigged on both of those deals and the rest is history.

Germany was not a contained state, Iraq was. Libya, a state which is known to have terrorist links is a contained state and has been for quite some time. Why hasn't Bush finished what Reagan started with Libya? Why are we not working towards regime change there? Iraq is not the threat that Germany was.

My favorite quote from Albert Einstein...
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.

As we are back to the point about how much you make, it is not hard for me to understand why someone who's family income is within the top 25% of US house holds would feel as you do.

I got an idea! Why don't you stop using the things which your tax dollars pay for as a protest to the massive amounts of taxation which you seem to be burden with. You know, streets and roads, police and fire departments, schools and libraries, etc. Why even the internet in the US was built mainly on US government funds paid for by your tax dollars.

If you are unwilling to pay for the privileges of being part of this country, stop pretending to have any pride in it.

 

[edX]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Nearly 50% of Iraq has been liberated. We've not taken Baghdad or Basra yet, but we've advanced more in a week than any other army ever has.

so far the advancement has been across miles of open desert. we've 'liberated' people who aren't close enough to anything else to be oppressed. in the process we've even attacked innocent farmers and killed them. in other words we've taken what saddam has given. we've found it a bit tougher where he deploys troops to oppose us.

As for the stock market, well all it takes is one piece of news good or bad, and it surges 200-300 points. It's at approx 8150 now, up about 650 points from when the war stated. It could dip again, but when all is said and done, it will be back in the 9000's.

i agree with this for the most part. the market is going to flucuate. but in general it seems to be creeping down, not up. i am hopeful that it will rebound as well, but certainly more time is needed to grasp what influence any of this has.

Oil prices translate directly into Gas Prices. They started going up before the war on fears that it could affect the US supply. It started dropping right after the war began because OPEC pledged to increase production during the war.

funny, prices at the pump briefly dropped for a few days and now they are back up to the max they have been in my area. $2.22 at the cheap places for regular unleaded. YIKES!!

You think that people displaying their national pride makes you sick. I'll tell you what makes me sick:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82395,00.html
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,207~12026~1234836,00.html

It's funny how anti-war protests can be some of the most violent displays of freedom of speech...

i actually agree with you here. these people are an embarassement to the concept of peace. i don't think many of them have a strong grasp on exactly what it is they are supposed to be standing for. most are simply youth getting swept up in alot of mixed emotions. i'd just as soon they stayed at home.

on the other hand, judging all who protest for peace upon these examles is very unfair. i would never judge all our soldiers based upon comments from a few that they are excited about getting to go to war and kill some 'camel jockeys'. i know that most of our soldiers have more sense of humanity than this.

Nice attempt at comparing the present US admin. to that of Germany between WWI and II. I love it when people twist history to fit their agenda. Please, tell me - where we have stated we hate the Iraqi people? Please tell me where we have stated our superiority over the Iraqi people? Please tell me where we have rounded up Iraqis and sent them to concentration camps? We haven't, and your comparison is full of liberal hot air.

why is that whenever anyone mentions specific parralels between bush/america and hitler/germany, that the only defense is to bring in other examples that don't correlate. if i were to draw parralels between apples and oranges and why they are both fruits, would you argue that they can't be fruits because one is red and the other orange, one has a smooth eatable skin and the other a rough, peelable skin?

But, let's learn from history for a moment, and since you are fond of using Germany, lets use them as an example. In the 1930's, Germany was involved in all the acts you stated. They were invading neighbors, and spreading through Europe quite fast. However, some appeasers, namely Neville Chamberlain thought he could make a deal with them and spare the UK. Stalin thought he could make a deal with them and avoid direct conflict. Hitler renigged on both of those deals and the rest is history.

just exactly where is iraq spreading to? last time they tried that, they got their fannies whooped. stopping the spread of aggresion is an entirely different animal than we are dealing with here. and unfortunately, it is Bush who is doing all the renigging on deals that have been made with other countries. no doubt that the future will eventually become an important lesson in history as well.

After the war, even Neville Chamerblain himself admitted he was wrong, and should have addressed the Hitler threat before it got to big.

Once again, my favorite quote from Albert Einstein...
The World is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything.

i really don't think that nayone is disputing this. it's just that we believe there is still plenty to be done short of war.

And finally, arden...
It's no surprise you are 18 and would've voted for Gore had you been old enough. When I was 22 I voted for Clinton. I thought I knew everything, as you probably do too (I didn't), and his class warfare speeches rang loudly in my just over minimum wage life. The funny thing is, as I became older, and more successful, and started making more money - I realized the "evil rich people" they were referring to was me - even though in my eyes I was hardly rich. Take my advice -be suspicious when a politician demonizes a certain segment of the population for their political gain (as Hitler did with the Jews, Democrats do with people who make more than $35K/year).

i don't think anyone considers you and your 80k income to be part of the 'evil rich'. i certainly look forward to making something close to that when i get thru with school. democrats aren't just those living in poverty. personally i don't believe much in the concept of 'evil' and thus find it frightening when anyone attempts to do anything under the banner of fighting it. if there is evil - war is a manifestation of it. but we can fight our enemies in many ways without making it about morality. morality is always relative to oneself.

 

[edX]

oh, nickn - that stuff makes me sick as well. i don't care which side of this anyone is on - wanting people to die is very wrong in my mind. i don't want our soldiers to die. i don't want them to be victims of Bush's agenda nor of the hate it is inspiring for us in people's around the world. it's all just sad.

 

[serpicolugnut]

Strong words to bandy about RacerX... But I've never said I hated anyone, nor do I. I have much love and empathy for everyone here, especially politically misguided souls such as yourself.

funny, prices at the pump briefly dropped for a few days and now they are back up to the max they have been in my area. $2.22 at the cheap places for regular unleaded. YIKES!!

Here in NE Georgia... The day before the war started gas was $1.58/gallon for unleaded. Today, it's $1.38/gallon for unleaded. I'm sure this will only enforce the uninformed opinion that this war is only for oil somehow...

To answer Ed:

so far the advancement has been across miles of open desert. we've 'liberated' people who aren't close enough to anything else to be oppressed. in the process we've even attacked innocent farmers and killed them. in other words we've taken what saddam has given. we've found it a bit tougher where he deploys troops to oppose us.

Actually, several smaller cities like Um Qasar have been liberated. As for it being tougher where troops are deployed, that's false. When matched up with their troops, our troops are cutting through them pretty easily. When matched up against the Fedayeen Saddam, who fake surrenders, and use innocent children as human shields, then the fight is much harder. But that's only because our troops are following an edict of liberation, and not of conquest. If conquest was the goal, we'd level all of Baghdad in an hour with a few MOABs. That's not the goal, and it's going to take longer to achieve than most people, even myself, thought at first. Doesn't change the inevitable in any way shape or form.

just exactly where is iraq spreading to? last time they tried that, they got their fannies whooped. stopping the spread of aggresion is an entirely different animal than we are dealing with here. and unfortunately, it is Bush who is doing all the renigging on deals that have been made with other countries. no doubt that the future will eventually become an important lesson in history as well.

Iraq doesn't have to invade another country now to wreak havoc on them. Through their direct connection to terrorist groups (Al Qaeda and others), all they have to do is supply these thugs with the WMD we know they have, and we could have Sept. 11 on a much grander scale.

personally i don't believe much in the concept of 'evil' and thus find it frightening when anyone attempts to do anything under the banner of fighting it.

I guess that goes to the heart of position. Hitler. Genghis Kahn. Pol Pot. Stalin. Sept. 11 hijackers. These people don't qualify as evil to you?

Why hasn't Bush finished what Reagan started with Libya? Why are we not working towards regime change there? Iraq is not the threat that Germany was.

Because Reagan finished the job with Libya. After Reagan put out an assasination attempt on Khadafi, and his daughter was killed in the assult, Khadfi was neutralized as a threat. We haven't had any problems with him since then.

My favorite quote from Albert Einstein...
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.

Good quote, and actually it's true. Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieve through understanding...understanding that if you set out to provoke us, you're going to get your ass kicked. Peace can only be achieved when victory has been achieved. This is why we will never have peace in Israel until either Israelies/Palestinians have a decisive victory over the other. This is why we never would have had peace in Europe in the 40's had Hitler not been stopped. Your problem is you look at peace as this utopian state. I look at peace through the eyes of reality, in that the world is full of evil that will from time to time threaten that peace, and the only way to get it back is through war and victory. I wish that man was sophisticated enough to find a way to achieve that utopian state of yours, but here, in 2003, he is not.

If you are unwilling to pay for the privileges of being part of this country, stop pretending to have any pride in it.

Nice assumption, RacerX. Show me where I've said I'm unwilling to pay for privileges of being part of this country (roads, fire stations, military, etc). You can't because I haven't. Just because I'm against the level I'm being taxed doesn't mean that I believe in no taxation. Taxes are a necessary evil to be sure. But when that taxation reaches close to 50%, we are no longer talking about paying for some privileges... we are talking about state sponsored slavery.

Also, please get your facts right when you quote stats I've thrown out. My "$80K income", is actually for a family of 3, as I've stated. That's also before taxes. While $80/year might be alot for a family of 3 in some areas of the country, here in the Atlanta area, it is not.

RacerX...tell me sir, how have I demonized you? You made some statements that reflected your collectivist views, and I simply made a reference to it, while also apologizing if you were not in fact a collectivst. That's hardly demonizing.

 

[chevy]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
...
Good quote, and actually it's true. Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieve through understanding...understanding that if you set out to provoke us, you're going to get your ass kicked. ...

What are we speaking about ? Children playing in the field and being too noisy ? Monsters in a video game ? This is ok to "kick ass".

War is not a video game. They are human beings below the bombs, in front of the bullets. And they suffer, they die. Soldiers (both sides, and civilians, and local observers) do not sit in front of the TV watching CNN. They are not virtual models.
It is not a happy kick-assing session.

One can discuss the reasons for that war. One can have reasons to think we have to do or not to do it. But war is not a kick-ass party !

 

[nickn]

Nobody wants war, however, as much as you'd (anyone who opposes war) would like to believe, sometimes it's needed. That's as much as I wish to comment on it,.

 

[serpicolugnut]

No one said it was a "happy kick-assing session". Please do not inflame the discussion by throwing out mis-quotes.

Yes, war is not a video game. It is not a reality tv show. People die, innocent and not so innocent. We know this. Nobody has stated otherwise, so to post as if someone did is complete disengenous. If you can't argue with facts, please don't bother arguing at all.