binaryDigit
Registered
But alas, when the c*ap hits the fan, who will be left?
(appy polly loggies if someone else has already pointed this out)
"George Bush our hero!"
- Thread starter kendall
- Start date
But alas, when the c*ap hits the fan, who will be left?
(appy polly loggies if someone else has already pointed this out)
doemel
Mac addict since 1993
I don't consider myself a religious fanatic, even though I hold literalist views. I believe in compassion, whether they are a Christian or not. But I also believe in appropriate punishment (bring on the Death Penalty debate!)
OK, it seems like this is the point where I want to join the debate once again. I have to provide some details about my past first: I have grown up in a place that used to be (less than 20 years ago) very catholic and conservative. In fact, even just as little as 15-20 years ago (I personally remember this very well), the priest in my home village ( Ausserberg ) at the time bashed my father from up on the lectern on several Sunday masses to the point that he got up and left the church (he's still a frequent church goer today and hasn't lost any of his faith). All this because his political ideas (yes, leftism has a tradition in my family) and his ideas of good pedagogics (he was teacher at the village primary school) were considered un-Christian and anti-conservative by the priest and some people with power in the village.
There's still a lot of conservative people there but the church is (fortunately) constantly losing ground in areas where they have no business (politics etc.). I was a strong beliefer when I was young until I really started thinking about what I was told every Sunday (or during the occasional weekday services we attended) which happened shortly after I finished primary school. I found myself being "brainwashed" and wanted to break out of that system. My first reaction was to turn to the opposite side, I got into satanist/occult circles, but quickly turned away from that when I saw the pointlessness and destructiveness of these mind sets. I guess this is what many teenagers of my generation went through. I then developed, over years of experience, reading and dealing with different cultures/belief systems, my very personal ideas of what others rely on religion for. I can't and won't disclaim that there's a strong influence of my Christian upbringing in that system. It is mainly limited to the way I treat people (charity, altruism...) which I regard as the essence of what Jesus (if he ever lived and is not just a legend) taught. These "beliefs" also make me clearly oppose the death penalty! I can't understand how anyone who calls him/herself practicing/believing Christian can support this concept of revenge. The number of people on the death row in the U.S. also clearly shows that the intended deterring effect does not exist (just to poke in another hornet nest: the same applies to the American "war on drugs"). If our societies would indeed follow some basic "Christian" ideas it would be more humane and worth living in. This, my friends, unfortunately remains a utopia.
OK, it seems like this is the point where I want to join the debate once again. I have to provide some details about my past first: I have grown up in a place that used to be (less than 20 years ago) very catholic and conservative. In fact, even just as little as 15-20 years ago (I personally remember this very well), the priest in my home village ( Ausserberg ) at the time bashed my father from up on the lectern on several Sunday masses to the point that he got up and left the church (he's still a frequent church goer today and hasn't lost any of his faith). All this because his political ideas (yes, leftism has a tradition in my family) and his ideas of good pedagogics (he was teacher at the village primary school) were considered un-Christian and anti-conservative by the priest and some people with power in the village.
There's still a lot of conservative people there but the church is (fortunately) constantly losing ground in areas where they have no business (politics etc.). I was a strong beliefer when I was young until I really started thinking about what I was told every Sunday (or during the occasional weekday services we attended) which happened shortly after I finished primary school. I found myself being "brainwashed" and wanted to break out of that system. My first reaction was to turn to the opposite side, I got into satanist/occult circles, but quickly turned away from that when I saw the pointlessness and destructiveness of these mind sets. I guess this is what many teenagers of my generation went through. I then developed, over years of experience, reading and dealing with different cultures/belief systems, my very personal ideas of what others rely on religion for. I can't and won't disclaim that there's a strong influence of my Christian upbringing in that system. It is mainly limited to the way I treat people (charity, altruism...) which I regard as the essence of what Jesus (if he ever lived and is not just a legend) taught. These "beliefs" also make me clearly oppose the death penalty! I can't understand how anyone who calls him/herself practicing/believing Christian can support this concept of revenge. The number of people on the death row in the U.S. also clearly shows that the intended deterring effect does not exist (just to poke in another hornet nest: the same applies to the American "war on drugs"). If our societies would indeed follow some basic "Christian" ideas it would be more humane and worth living in. This, my friends, unfortunately remains a utopia.
habilis
Ministry of Re-Education
A few fun-filled factoids:
1 - We took Iraq in less time than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was the 51-day operation.
2 - It took Teddy Kennedy longer to call the cops after his Oldsmobile sunk at Chappaquiddick than it took the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to obliterate the Medina Republican Guard.
3 - We took Iraq in less time than it took to count the votes in Florida in the year 2000.
But all the long, there was never a shortage of Viet Nam Quagmire screaming negative naysayers. And the next target for the naysayers will of course be the rebuilding effort, North Korea, Iran, and Homeland Security. So there's plenty more time for good laughs.
Finally, I just wanted to take this occasion to personally thank members of the elite left such as Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Martin Sheen, and my personal favorite, Janine Garafolo for exposing yourselves as the negative hate-driven ignoramuses you are, and not letting us forget that the Hollywood blacklist can still be a lot of fun.
1 - We took Iraq in less time than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was the 51-day operation.
2 - It took Teddy Kennedy longer to call the cops after his Oldsmobile sunk at Chappaquiddick than it took the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to obliterate the Medina Republican Guard.
3 - We took Iraq in less time than it took to count the votes in Florida in the year 2000.
But all the long, there was never a shortage of Viet Nam Quagmire screaming negative naysayers. And the next target for the naysayers will of course be the rebuilding effort, North Korea, Iran, and Homeland Security. So there's plenty more time for good laughs.
Finally, I just wanted to take this occasion to personally thank members of the elite left such as Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Martin Sheen, and my personal favorite, Janine Garafolo for exposing yourselves as the negative hate-driven ignoramuses you are, and not letting us forget that the Hollywood blacklist can still be a lot of fun.
Ugg
Registered
Wow habilis, you've outdone yourself! I can see the hatred inside you, devouring your body organ by organ.
For a republic to work it needs input from all members not just an elite few. For a republic to succeed, it needs to respect the opinions of all people. You seem to be advocating, yet once again, a return to tyranny when those with the money ruled the earth and squashed the "little" people for pleasure and profit.
Russia is a prime example of the extremism occurring today, out of the frying pan and into the fire. Hope you're willing to fight your daughter tooth and nail when she decides she's had enough of the tyranny of the religious and totalitarian right.
It might come sooner than that though, since once again a republican president, although committed to less government intervention, has proposed the most massive budget of all time. At a time when the only thing keeping the US afloat financially is the fact that it is borrowing way beyond its means and living off the largess of other countries. All it would take is for OPEC to charge euros for its oil instead of dollars and the US will be a big wasteland. All of this of course is pure speculation but the world is ripe for change. Whether the world has the will to fight off American economic colonization is yet to be seen but the signs indicate that the time may be ripe.
Good luck in your campaign of hate.
For a republic to work it needs input from all members not just an elite few. For a republic to succeed, it needs to respect the opinions of all people. You seem to be advocating, yet once again, a return to tyranny when those with the money ruled the earth and squashed the "little" people for pleasure and profit.
Russia is a prime example of the extremism occurring today, out of the frying pan and into the fire. Hope you're willing to fight your daughter tooth and nail when she decides she's had enough of the tyranny of the religious and totalitarian right.
It might come sooner than that though, since once again a republican president, although committed to less government intervention, has proposed the most massive budget of all time. At a time when the only thing keeping the US afloat financially is the fact that it is borrowing way beyond its means and living off the largess of other countries. All it would take is for OPEC to charge euros for its oil instead of dollars and the US will be a big wasteland. All of this of course is pure speculation but the world is ripe for change. Whether the world has the will to fight off American economic colonization is yet to be seen but the signs indicate that the time may be ripe.
Good luck in your campaign of hate.
Darkshadow
wandering shadow
habilis, are you such a small person that other peoples' opinions matter to you that much?
habilis
Ministry of Re-Education
Campaign of enlightenment Ugg, enlightenent. The truth hurts, but it shall also set you free.
And I hate to burst your bubble, but it's going to take a catastophe much larger then charging euro's for oil to turn the US "into a wasteland". Our infrastructure and natural resources are far to great for that to happen. Thats just your fantasy.
Cat
Registered
I am tuly astonished at the glorification of this Iraq-Blitzkrieg. I sincerely hope Busholini's motto for the elections won't be a call for faster ways of killing.
BTW. One of the very few things that one can still believe in regarding the concept of a revolution, is that it must develop and proceed out of a spontaneous popular uprising. A foreign invasion and "liberation" will indeed remove the oppressive regime, but the question remains on how to proceed afterwards. Will the occupying power institute its own rule? Then it was no liberation but a conquest. Will it leave the people to oraganize themselves? Then the people better be ready or else all will fail. Since they hadn't decided on their own that the time for change was ripe, nothing guarantees a peaceful or successfull proceeding towards democracy and freedom. However, we nowadays possess a truly unique organization in this world, the United Nations, which are the best means toward the end of building a free, democratic nation. The unwillingness of the invaders to accept their own inadequateness point in the direction of gross imperialism and a very negative form of self-righteousness.
BTW. One of the very few things that one can still believe in regarding the concept of a revolution, is that it must develop and proceed out of a spontaneous popular uprising. A foreign invasion and "liberation" will indeed remove the oppressive regime, but the question remains on how to proceed afterwards. Will the occupying power institute its own rule? Then it was no liberation but a conquest. Will it leave the people to oraganize themselves? Then the people better be ready or else all will fail. Since they hadn't decided on their own that the time for change was ripe, nothing guarantees a peaceful or successfull proceeding towards democracy and freedom. However, we nowadays possess a truly unique organization in this world, the United Nations, which are the best means toward the end of building a free, democratic nation. The unwillingness of the invaders to accept their own inadequateness point in the direction of gross imperialism and a very negative form of self-righteousness.
Darkshadow
wandering shadow
Um...habilis...just for future mention, you might want to say the facts rather than my facts. The latter suggests that only you percieve or hold those facts. I'm gathering that's not what you mean. 
I wasn't harrassing or mudslinging you with that last post I made, BTW. If I offended, I didn't mean to do that, I meant to chastise. Nobody should take such glee in even trying to discredit someone's opinions - that way leads to chaos. (And lots of mudslining.) I'd have said the same to someone showing the same disregard to any of your opinions.
Though really, the thread has gotten waaay outta the original topic.
I wasn't harrassing or mudslinging you with that last post I made, BTW. If I offended, I didn't mean to do that, I meant to chastise. Nobody should take such glee in even trying to discredit someone's opinions - that way leads to chaos. (And lots of mudslining.
) I'd have said the same to someone showing the same disregard to any of your opinions.Though really, the thread has gotten waaay outta the original topic.
toast
Gone !
The Iraq crisis is not new any more. People had time to elaborate a position, to reflect. It is no more a question of days or nights, as it was a few weeks ago.
A few weeks ago, we fought (you and many will remember it) for or against war. The debate is somewhat obsolete: the war has occured.
It may be time for new argumentation, new facts. In a simple, pluraal word: news. That's not what we are getting here, unforunately.
What we are getting are things such as:
Good luck in your campaign of hate.
ampaign of enlightenment Ugg, enlightment.
I think I was thought to pity you, compassion after all ...
Busholini's motto...
I do not think that those sayings fit either 1) the topic, as said by DarkShadow, or 2) the debate between intelligent polite people. Again, flaming about opinions on Iraq has lived. In my humble opinion.
I have nothing against people, that's why I'm not accusing anyone of making this thread a waste. I may have many things to oppose to opinions, not only yours by the way; but speaking calmly in a tempest of personal attacks or indignations is futile.
Second point: closing a thread is not closing the debate. Most of the time, threads which are closed but which contained food for thought are reopened shortly after, a week or so, with a more fitting title and behaviour of contributors.
I hope this happen. That the thread receives a new name closer to the real topic of the actual discussion, which could be, indeed, extremely interesting. But the actual ground of opposition in this thread is unfertile ground for thoughtful discussion; hence, I'll wait
and suggest the thread stops before the angers grow between members.
habilis
Ministry of Re-Education
Shadow: Your right, I should have said "the" facts, what I meant was facts that I brought to light, since I'm almost the lone voice of right leaning thought around here. This thread did spiral out of control, but that's gonna happen.
Cat: for stark comparison of statistics; In one single night during the Allied bombing campaign of Hitlers Berlin and surrounding areas, more then 70,000 civilians died. ONE SINGLE NIGHT. It's progress like that, American advances in technology that spare civilian lives that I'm proud of.
Cat: for stark comparison of statistics; In one single night during the Allied bombing campaign of Hitlers Berlin and surrounding areas, more then 70,000 civilians died. ONE SINGLE NIGHT. It's progress like that, American advances in technology that spare civilian lives that I'm proud of.
Ugg
Registered
Toast, thanks for the intervention, this thread has gone way off topic and I've no doubt helped it. Whether a mod closes it or not I'll no longer contribute. It is time to move on. GW has been greeted pretty much as expected, some Iraqis happy, some not, some afraid to take a stand.
So, on to a new discussion.
So, on to a new discussion.
Satcomer
In Geostationary Orbit
Everyone here seems so worldly political. I want to put a test to you ALL. This requires honesty because I don't expect or want a response. I'm trying to point out you need to be aware of the REAL power that directly affects YOU everyday you live. Now the question:
How many people here truly know the name of you mayor, city/town officials, state or provence, congressional and/or parliament representatives? Without looking them up!
Believe it or not you local officials have more power over you everyday lives than George Bush or your country's leader. Think about your local roads, school administration, zoning boards, property taxes, urban development, local/state police, etc.
So arguing about George Bush's policy is healthy but you should pay just as much attention to where you live. If not more!
How many people here truly know the name of you mayor, city/town officials, state or provence, congressional and/or parliament representatives? Without looking them up!
Believe it or not you local officials have more power over you everyday lives than George Bush or your country's leader. Think about your local roads, school administration, zoning boards, property taxes, urban development, local/state police, etc.
So arguing about George Bush's policy is healthy but you should pay just as much attention to where you live. If not more!
toast
Gone !
Preliminary remarks
1. Parliament
Parliaments are generally speaking, bicameral. They feature one High and one Low House, one for impulsion (the lowest one), and one for inertia (the highest one), although I can't develop here.
Examples:
US: Senate (inertia) / House of Rep. (impulse)
Germany: Bundestag (federal) / Bundesrat (state)
Italy: Senate (inertia) / Parl.
UK: Lords (hereditary) / Commons (impulse)
France > French 'Congress' is bicameral, one High (Senate) and one Low (Parliament, composed by 577 deputees or so) houses. Senate is not universally elected, Parliament is.
2. Hierarchic levels
If I recall well, most democracies are organized in 4 principal hierarchic levels (people please correct my sayings):
US:
#1- Federal
#2 - State
#3 - County
#4 - Township
Germany:
#1 - Bund
#2 - Land
#3 - Gemeine
#4 - Staat
(Wait, do you still have some Bezirke, districts, as had the DDR ?)
France:
#1 - Central state
#2 - Region
#3 - Department
#4 - Town
France > In my case:
#1 - France
#2 - Rhônes-Alpes
#3 - Isère
#4 - Grenoble
Important notes
1) I'm answering for France. France is a centralized state, Germany and the US aren't, they're federal, you have more local representation, we don't. So you should know better than me, people.
2) I'm studying politics, as well as comparative politics.
.3) I haven't referred to anything but my memory before posting that
Answer (at least)
President: this old Jacques. You all know him now
#1 Parliament: Michèle Rivasi, Rhônes-Alpes deputee. Hasn't been re-elected last year, so I don't know the new one. Damn.
#2 Region: not one person but a list is elected. I know their political tendency (socialist), that's about all.
#3 Department: not one person but a list is elected. I know their political tendency (socialist), same.
#4 Town: Michel Destot, socialist. Adjoints (approx. counsellors): Raymond Avrillier.
Appreciation: Argh ! That's centralism, people. You never know your representatives well, for they are so far from home...
EDIT: Nota bene: socialism in actual France has strictly nothing to do with Lenin
.There you go
Cat
Registered
LOL!
Much the same is true for the Netherlands, I couldn't name my mayor or the regional representatives, but I can name the ruling parties. In my town (rather a village) a coalition governs of:
VVD (conservative, liberal),
D66 (centrist, progressive)
and P21 (collaboration between
PvdA, socialist, centre-left and GroenLinks, socialist/environmentalist, left).
However, I can name almost the whole central government (which however is demissionar, ehm fallen? ... anyway a new one is being formed).
Minister President: J.P. Balkenende
Foreign affairs: J. de Hoop-Scheffer
Domestic affairs: J. Remkes
Justice: P.H. Donner
Education: M. van der Hoeven (the only woman)
Integration and Minorities: H. Nawijn
Etc.
I do know even some members of bodies on European level, but not exactly their function ...
F. Bolkestein is a Dutch member of the European Convention (?), I think ...
Anyway, in centralist states the government carries much more influence than the local authorities. Especially in small countries like the Netherlands.