Happy Independance Day, Iraq!

MDLarson

Registered
Congratulations, U.S. Armed Forces and allies!
Congratulations, Iraqi people!
Congratulations, George W. Bush!

With the focus from the media on the negatives, I want to bring up the positives. For the first time in years, people are speaking their minds in Iraq. They have freedom. Reporters are now over there asking questions about Saddam, and the people are feeling comfortable enough to respond honestly and not worry about going home, and soon getting knocks on the door from Saddam's henchmen.

It's a good thing, and the world is a little better off now, I think.
 
Congatulations to the propaganda machine of the the Bush/Cheny regeim. It seems you have been successful in convincing people in Maple Grove that the occupation has ended.

Now if you can only convince the Iraqi people who are still surrounded by US tanks and troops that this is true.

Let's be VERY CLEAR here. There is not one single thing about this damn "war" that it "positive"! PERIOD!!

Bush & Cheny 4 More Wars
 
TommyWillB said:
Let's be VERY CLEAR here. There is not one single thing about this damn "war" that it "positive"! PERIOD!!
Oh come on now, you're being quite unfair, I think. One positive thing, of course, is that they are no longer living in fear of Saddam Hussein. You can at least admit that. If you can't, you are an unreasonable man.
 
I never said the occupation has ended, either. Don't do that.

If we can compare Iraq to Germany, one can say that Germany was "free from Naziism" before we completely withdrew our troops from there, right?
 
Now, Now Tommy. It is a truly evil wind that blows no-one good.

One positive thing about Iraq is that it has the military so bottled up that the rest of the "dominoes" that the "Bush Doctrine" had lined up are not in imminent danger of invasion....
 
I just hope our Australian troops are out by Christmas. The only way that is going to happen is if;
1) Iraq has stabilised no longer needs International Assistance.
2) Our Sycophantic little Turd of a PM loses the up-and-coming election.

The US, UK and Australia should never have gone to War in Iraq. That should've been the job of the UN.
 
Salvo said:
The US, UK and Australia should never have gone to War in Iraq. That should've been the job of the UN.
Yeah, except they wouldn't have... I distinctly remember Saddam refusing the UN weapons inspectors access, and the UN wasn't standing tough. But don't miss my point; the UN should have enforced their own rules, but they didn't. Therefore, it's the duty of responsible nations to do a little "correcting".
 
Not even yeah, sorry the UN has no sovereignty and therefore no army and no right or reason to "wage war" or do anything other than apply sanctions and attempt other diplomatic solutions.

Only sovereign states can wage war. They can do that to protect their sovereign interests, including preemptively to prevent imminent attack. The problem is not that the US did it alone, it is that they did it at all. They were wrong to attach an imminent threat to a crippled regime. They were wrong to apply a might makes right philosophy to a problem that needs an emancipated worldview that sees the whole problem, not just the symptoms.

Hello, George, if you're reading. The solution lies in Ramallah and Gaza, not in Baghdad or Fallujah.
 
The Iraqi people have the freedom to speak their mind, and they are saying: "Yankees go home!". Then their dauhgters are kidnapped and their sons imprisoned in Abu-Ghraib.
 
Should have happened years ago...only we had a leader who was more interested in Cigars and a female intern's company than doing his job during that time. The UN was too busy bickering amongst themselves to manage to do anything other than cry about Saddam's defiance.

The last time European countries allowed a similar thing to happen millions and millions of people died. Guess they forgot the part about learning from History, huh?

He should have been handled long ago and wasn't for no good reason I can see. He spent the next 10+ years laughing at sanctions and agreements he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War. That alone was more than enough reason to oust him, but then you also have to consider the atrocities he's committed during his reign. WMDs or not, the world is a better place without him in control of anything other than a jail-house bunk-bed or a coffin 6' under ground.

I don't necessarily like Bush that much, but he at least had the ____'s to finally do something about Saddam. The worse part is I absolutely hate Kerry. So chances are I'll have to vote for Bush again. He's the lesser of the two evils IMO right now. Had Gore won we probably would have been invaded by and defeated by Peru.
 
mdnky said:
The last time European countries allowed a similar thing to happen millions and millions of people died. Guess they forgot the part about learning from History, huh?

Perhaps they coulda/shoulda back in Gulf I, but other than thumbing his nose at the UN, there was nothing really doing with Saddam that fills the shoes of Mr. Schickelgruber. If you want to find someone along his lines - aggressive uberracist - look a few clicks west of Baghdad. You will incidentally see the one of the main tap-roots of Arab resentment against the west. Granted, it's not the only one, but it's the one that we can do something about.

He should have been handled long ago and wasn't for no good reason I can see. He spent the next 10+ years laughing at sanctions and agreements he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War. That alone was more than enough reason to oust him, but then you also have to consider the atrocities he's committed during his reign. WMDs or not, the world is a better place without him in control of anything other than a jail-house bunk-bed or a coffin 6' under ground.

How does $40 oil, daily internationalized terror attacks, fomented resentment and $87 billion poured down the desert sand make the world a better place?

I don't necessarily like Bush that much, but he at least had the ____'s to finally do something about Saddam. The worse part is I absolutely hate Kerry. So chances are I'll have to vote for Bush again. He's the lesser of the two evils IMO right now. Had Gore won we probably would have been invaded by and defeated by Peru.

Sadly, so will I.
 
Independance day? The way it looks like right now, there is more war, dying ppl and fear than before. To me the whole Bush politic was a pure mess and made things much worse
 
Imagine if it all turns out well,generations in the future may wonder why Saddam was never apprehended after Gulf War pt.1 for waging an aggressive war against Kuwait.Remember Kuwait?And before you say we in the west supported his war on Iran remember at the time what Iran represented!But now with hindsight on that slaughter we can only hope someday the innocents will forgive us.A thought just occurred to me that probably most of the folks here aren't old enough to remember that far back anyway! . On Zammy's comments about people with fear & death well that shouldn't be any surprise.Tragic of course but you can blame some of that on old scores being settled.What of the criminals that were emptied out of the prisons when the war was on full speed ahead.You can be certain not all were there for only political reasons either! ` The earlier poster saying the problem lies in Gaza shows the lack of understanding the Arab mindset in the "west".I know I can't make that jump.Must be a cultural thing I guess.This really boils down to the need for more dialogue so we can get our heads around these issues.
 
markceltic said:
The earlier poster saying the problem lies in Gaza shows the lack of understanding the Arab mindset in the "west".I know I can't make that jump.Must be a cultural thing I guess.This really boils down to the need for more dialogue so we can get our heads around these issues.
Thanks for saying that; we all know we have our own well-formulated opinions, but we've demonstrated before that we can talk civily about the most serious of issues... :)

Anyway, I want to challenge you all to a hypothetical question:

If the George W. Bush you know and hate today was in office to stay, (read: no term limits, absolute power, whatever) Would you support military action to remove him? Whether you are a citizen or not of the USA is irrelevant in your answer.

If you can see that I'm trying to set this up as a comparison to Saddam's removal by force, you're right. I think it's hypocritical for those who are so blindly filled with hatred for Bush to claim that the removal of a ruthless dictator (who REALLY had torture chambers) was not a good thing...
 
That depends on how Bush handled himself. If he started acting like Saddam did, probably we would. But if he kept going like he is now? Probably not, even though many of us dislike him.

I wouldn't say anybody here is 'blindly filled with hatred for Bush,' though. I haven't seen any posts by anybody that would indicate that. Dislike, yes, but not outright hatred.

Heck, I haven't liked the man since he was governor of Texas. <sigh> (And just so y'all know, I grew up in Texas...moved north 4 years ago. Perfect timeing. :rolleyes:)
 
Dang, did that thread get deleted? Truthfully, I was talking to somebody on this board who insisted he absolutely hated Bush. That was the only reason I remember it, because I pressed him on it and he wouldn't back down. I didn't get it.

Anyway, the point is, there are people here and everywhere who say that they really do hate Bush. The larger point I am illustrating is how people like TommyWillB fail to see any good in the liberation / occupation / whatever of Iraq because of their overwhelming hatred of Bush.
 
Specious Hypothetical - it's not a political equivalent...
That would depend on who's military. How about if the army that removed him didn't speak our language, didn't understand our culture and had a history of emnity with us that was cast by people within and without as a clash of culture? How about if they looked as though they were moving in to stay?

As citizens, it would be our right, our sacred honor and duty to remove him by whatever means. It would not be the right of any other country to do so without direct imminent threat to their sovereignty.

(BTW I don't hate George Bush, I just think the incursion into Iraq was an ill-advised move designed by a bunch of cold-warriors that have a skewed vision of how to approach a monopolar world.)
 
Would you support military action to remove him?
No, but I would give support to all other means to remove him. I would call his lies lies, I would speak out against him from a political tribune, I would publish critical articles of his policies, I would show my support for his rivals, I would challenge his moral right to do what he does: ALL FROM WITHIN THE LAW.
Bush broke the international law by attacking a country while unprovoked, he circumvented the law by arresting people without chrages or the possibility of a fair trial, he bypassed the security council of the UN, he smeared his opponents with lies and tried to boost his own stature with lies.
I do not hate him, I honestly fear him. The actions he has taken up to now are the same steps dictators have always taken in the past: to unite your people and make them rally behind you, create an enemy. To assure your dominion, request special powers for an emergency and then make them permanent. Promulgate laws that heighten the control that you can excert over people's daily lives. Control the media and punish critics.
This is exactly what has been done from Cesar to Hitler. Do you know that Mussolini said "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, because it is the merger of state and corporate power." This quote does indeed remind me of Bush. He protects the interests of the powerfull, so they can help him stay in power. A government should protect the interests of the weakest in its society. It should care for those who cannot care for themselves. I do not see this happening, quite the opposite really.
Bush has been bullying the world around, sometimes with success, sometimes not. He has successfully removed Saddam from power, but what has he brought instead? Up to now he hasn't brought a good alternative. Think about Afghanistan. Is there a democracy in Afghanistan now? No there is not. Is there freedom in Afghanistan now? No there is not. Not yet at least, but I wouldn't dare to say yet whether the people there are better off now. The Taliban had an iron rule there and a wrong one from our perspective. We removed that rule and instead of it there now in chaos. There have been philosophers that have argued that civil war, anarchy and chaos are much much worse than tyranny. The same applies to Iraq. We have removed a dictatorial regime, and up to now this has only brought more death and destruction. The Iraqis have lived in fear under Saddam and arguably live in worse fear right now. Time will tell how this will change and whether it will change to the best.

Concerning Germany: America dragged its feet at coming into the war. Up to Pearl Harbor it didn't do absolutly anything of significance to stop Hitler. Arguably the worst fact about the war was the racism, etnich cleansing and holocaust. As for the rest, it was simply an ordinary war. One countries military against the other countries military. A lot of innocent civilians died on both sides. Whereas in america's attack on Iraq, Iraq didn't really ahve any armaments worth speaking of. The USA could simply barge in. But this has been a much different war. Barging into Iraq was like barging into a beehive, because the Iraqis resorted to guerrilla warfar. Yes, you can call them terrorists, but in fact this is simply guerrilla warfare. Small groups attacking and retreating. If the Iraqis would win in the end, we would call them Freedom Fighters and Rightful Rebels, if the USA win, we call them terrorists and enemy combatants.

The reasons that have been give for the war are no reasons at all but simply an attempt to rationalise the fact afterwards. Saddam did not help Al-quaeda: it was a secular military dictatorship, which is very different from a clerical theocracy. Saddam did not possess weapons of mass destruction: all he ever had was bought from the USA anyway. Saddam was not actively capable of anything else but "defying" the UN in very general terms. Besides sneering he could't do much more. Iraq was backrupt and dependent on foreign aid for the most part of its supplies of food and medicine. What could he have done?

The USA claim to protect and bring freedom on democracy. The ones who have killed Allende and installed Pinochet should think twice before repeating this claim: read some of these declassified documents (introduction). I know my enemy, do you know yours?
 
Actually, I don't see much good in the war on Iraq, either. There was no reason to. They didn't antagonize us in any way. They didn't try to invade us or try to force anything upon us.

In my personal opinion, Bush attacked Iraq because he felt that Americans needed a war. We were pissed about 9/11, and the hunt for Osama was going badly, so he attacked someone else. And I have actually, really talked to people that feel better about 9/11 because Saddam was pulled out of power. Saddam had nothing whatsoever to do with the 9/11 attack! <sigh>

I agree with Cat on that one, though I think it's all a way to see him re-elected for a second term, rather than a way for him to stay in power (continually). Now, if I start seeing something about them trying to get around the term limit, then I'll start getting really worried.
 
Bush's stance on Iraq was actually a very risky thing to do, politically. He knew the risks and knew that he might NOT get elected BECAUSE of the Iraqi conflict. Colin Powell said as much to Bush before it all happened; "You will own all their hopes, aspirations and problems. You'll own it all."

Bush has made it clear that he never claimed Saddam's regime was specifically backing the 9/11 attack. The sticky point is whether or not there was a link between Saddam's regime and terrorism at large. There is evidence to say there was, and ANY association with terrorists was considered grounds for recourse.
 
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