i love european attitude about the iraq.
So do I.
how they should have just been left alone to do whatever it was they wanted to do.
No, that's not the european attitude: we sent in inspectors to control what they were doing and to prevent that they would do anything wrong.
military is bad, talk is good.
Yes indeed.
this is the same attitude europe had between wwi and wwii with germany and hitler.
No it is not. At that time ther was no "europe" which could decide collectively what to do and what not about a countries dictator. Moreover, Hitler in the beginning had the support of the majority of his subjects. Many other european countries had governements that were either very close to Hitler's nazism (like Italy and Mussolini's fascism) or didn't care (like the wannebe-neutral kingdom of the Netherlands). Anti-semitism was widespread and commonplace even before Hitler, not just in europe, but also in the US. Hitler negotiated treaties and alliances to prevent intervention in his internal affairs with many of the european countries fo the time. Since then much has changed. If there is a Europe that vaguely approaches unity, that is because we wanted to prevent a second Hitler. We can now act in a more unified and coordinated way. And we have learned things about dictators and oppression, things we now accuse others of doing, Saddam as well as Sharon as well as Bush. Saddam murdered a rebellious, separatist population. Sharon is mudering Palestinians, Bush is murdering Iraqi's. None come close to the number exterminated in WWII. Saddam didn't kill millions. In the gas attacks on kurdish villages, tens of thousands died, but the numbers don't really matter. What matters is the motive. You have no right to kill. None. There is only one single possible excuse (not a right) to kill, which is to prevent to be killed or that more be killed.
well, we all know how that turned out. most of europe got obliterated.
That is not true. The regime's of the Axis were Europe as well as the regimes that opposed them. The nazis and fascists, like it or not, represented much of what makes Europe europe. Cesaer conquered Europe and brought the Roman culture, Napoleon conquered Europe and brought the French culture, if Hitler had conquered Europe, maybe we would speak as highly of him as of Cesar and Napoleon. Charlemange passed thousend onthe sword to christianise Europe, would you call that "obliterating"?
they begged the US for help and ended up being saved from a life of death or servitude thanks to the actions of the US in a war it had no business being in.
No, we did not. Only after Pearl Harbor, when the USA were personally thretened by the Axis they did interevene. Moreover, the USA did not single-handedly win the war. Remember that Russia was approaching from the East and was winning her war unaided.
Remember not just the atrocities of the defeated, but also of the victors. the english bomber Dresden, a red-cross refugee city, holding women, children, elderly and wounded. It was bomber to the ground by the allies, with Napalm. Tens of thousends died a horrible death, while the war was already as good as won. Why? To impress the advancing Red Army.
europe is big on letting history repeat itself. it must be a recessive stupid gene or something. maybe they're just pussies.
Remember that all americans originally are europeans. So before insulting yourself, please try to learn from history. We want to avoid history repeating, that is why we are opposed to the war.
there is no way iraq could have been changed without war. whether for good or bad.
That is not true, you do not know it. The UN was taking action not only to contain Iraq and control it, but also to change it. It could have changed, like other regimes change. Think about Lybia, for instance. It would have been a much slower, but much less violent process. As Iraq was not a direct threat, this was still a worthy possibility.
sure bush is a SOB. sure he had a political agenda but i dont know of a leader who isnt or doesnt.
I don't accuse Bush of having an agenda, but I denounce the ruthless and inconsiderate way he is carrying it out.
despite how the war was carried out. cant anyone just agree that disposing of a crackpot like saddam was a good thing? he murder over 1 million of his people. the guy is hitler.
No, I do not agree. Military action that costs thousands of lives is never the best way. There was no reason and no right to intervene. Saddam was not a threat to the US and not the his neighbors anymore. He was a dictator and to depose him would have been a good thing, but waging war against him was the wrong way to tackle the problem. Hence the US did wrong.
its pointless to disagree with the war at this point. its at the point of no return. its like swimming across the english channel then deciding to quit halfway. that could be very bad for the person swimming.
I disagree. I have good reasons to still disagree with the war, case in point, I want to prevent history repeating. I think it is wrong for the US to decide at whim to invade a country it doesn't like. I think other ways should ahve been tried first, like diplomacy. I want to make sure that the USA stop acting in this way. While Iraq is still under occupation and Afghanistan still hasn't a democratically elected government I think it makes good sense to argue over the way the USA have conducted itself and to decide whther it has done good or bad and what should have been done instead. If the war is seen as a wrong decision, we con focus on removing the people who make the wrong decisions and to elect the ones that make the good ones. If you just say that there is no point in evaluating what your government does and whter it takes good or bad decisions, then I would almost come close to suggest that maybe you have no right to vote.
in anycase, instead of focusing on what CANT be UNDONE, focus on what this thread was created for. iraq is free of a tyrannical leader. freedom, schools, hospitals, these are all nice things.
I do not want to undo things, I want that wrongs are set right. I want to make sure the USA gets out of Iraq as soon as possible. That the prisoners get a fair trial and are not abused anymore. That contracts for rebuilding Iraq are not assigned by the US government to its big-corp friends, but are assigned by the Iraqi government and possibly help to employ Iraqi people. I want things to be done that the USA is not doing. I want the Iraqi's to be masters of their own fate, I want the UN not the US helping them. I want to be able, one day, to truly say "happy independence day, Iraq!" which will probably be the anniversary of the last US soldier leaving, and not the damn fourth of july.
