installing mac os x 10.2.8 on G3 all-in-one

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oldmacsdiehard

Registered
Hello,

I am stumped on an installation problem. I'd like to bring the Mac OS on my old G3 all-in-one as up to date as I can, namely 9.2.2 and 10.2.8, both of them on a 7.7 BG partition (the first) on a clean (freshly formatted) 10 GB hard drive. I can install 9.2.1, then update to 9.2.2, then install 10.2. At this point I have verified that I can boot into either 9 or X successfully, run programs, etc. However, after I try to run the 10.2.8 updater, it leaves my G3 in an unhappy state. The boot sequence for X stalls at the Apple logo and refuses to go further. I don't get the little spinning clock hand.

From here, I can force a restart, then hold down Option and then C to boot into 9 from a CD, then use the Startup Disk control panel to bless 9.2.2 on the hard drive; then a second restart will boot the Mac into 9.2.2 from the hard drive. So the hard drive is OK. I can see the 10.2.8 files and they all appear to be there. Yet, I still can't switch back to 10.2.8 using Startup Disk; the boot sequence just gets stuck again.

I have tried various, time-consuming reinstalls, removing all PCI cards from their slots, using Software Update to install 10.2.8 vs. the running downloadable, stand-alone installer from the Apple website, etc. So far I haven't found the magic combination (if there is one). Any ideas out there? What does it mean when OS X stalls at the Apple logo?
 
Means it can't boot. (Sorry, I don't really know about that...) ... Have you tried to update to 10.2.7 or 10.2.6 instead? Maybe there's a particular problem with the G3 AIO and some drivers in later Jaguar updates?
 
Yes, I tried updating in 2 steps to 10.2.6 then to 10.2.8. Actually I never got past the first step---applying the 10.2.6 updater led to the same result.

I was wondering if stalling at the Apple logo during boot means the Mac can't even find the right place on the disk to start loading the OS, indicating that the 10.2.8 updater wasn't able to update the disk driver correctly or something like that.

As for XPostFacto, I've heard of it... but since most of the information I've seen claims that 10.2.8 is supported for a machine like mine, I've been hoping to use an "official" Apple installation route so what I end up isn't subject to XPostFacto's limitations.

Thanks for these suggestions!
 
Hey anyone, regarding my earlier problem, I'm still trying a bit more with the Apple 10.2.8 Combo Update before switching to XPostFacto. As I said before, Apple indicates 10.2.8 should be installable on a G3AIO. Some questions:

1) Does it matter if the CD-ROM drive is ATA 0 and the hard drive is ATA 1? Can that be changed? Also, does it matter that the hard drive is jumpered so it can either be an ATA or IDE drive? (Remember all the installs on this hard drive went OK, up to this final update, so I think I must have the master/slave jumper set OK.)

2) Is there some advantage to putting OS 9 on a separate (second) disk partition, then installing Mac OS X on its own partition (which must be the first/lowest partition and < 8GB)? So far I've just been putting both of them together on partition 1.
 
New info: I used command-V to get verbose ouput while booting into 10.2.8, and discovered details about the exact sticking point (apple logo but no spinning clock). It corresponds to "Loading HFS+ file [\mach_kernel] from ff8d6ac0". This happens after its third (successful?) attempt to open a partition. The partition is called ide1/@0.6. This comes after two (unsuccessful?) opens of ide1/@0.05 (at 2 different hex addresses, with no loads, after trying HFS, UFS, and Ext2?). I wonder if it can't open the main partition and hangs when it can only open the empty partition (no kernel there).
 
Sounds like it's looking for a startup disk, probably spinning it's wheels trying to network boot. Happened to me when a HD on my PB ti went out......

You're positive you got through the installation without any hangups?
 
oldmacsdiehard said:
2) Is there some advantage to putting OS 9 on a separate (second) disk partition, then installing Mac OS X on its own partition (which must be the first/lowest partition and < 8GB)? So far I've just been putting both of them together on partition 1.
Click to expand...
There could be some advantage to putting Mac OS 9 on second, after Mac OS X... Mac OS 9 really doesn't need to be installed, it can be placed on a drive.

One suggestion is to move the Mac OS 9 system folder to the second partition, then do a erase and install of 10.2 on the first partition. This guarantees that the key Mac OS X files are at the beginning of the first partition.

Another suggestion (though I don't think it should matter) is to do the formatting and partitioning of the drive using the Disk Utility on the Mac OS X installation media. The version for Mac OS 9 should work, but considering your situation, it couldn't hurt to try.

Also you could take it up to 10.2.3 and enable journaling. And then see if moving up to 10.2.8 is successful.


I've done a number of AIO installations of 10.2 and have taken most of them all the way up to 10.2.8 (since it was released). I've never seen this type of issue before. Something to keep in mind is that this could be a sign that there is an underlying issue with the drive you are using. If you can, I would also suggest attempting this on some other drive to see if you end up with the same results.
 
Thanks guys! Note that in all my attempts so far (which have all ended in failure), these 10.2.8 installs looked 100% good with no issues UNTIL I clicked "Restart".

RacerX: I like all your advice (as well as your cool avatar!) and will try what you say. I confess the IBM disk I am using is a random replacement I got from a friend. (Long aside... my original hard drive died slowly during my first Jaguar install attempt. Eventually, it seems it took down the power supply with it! Very dramatic P/S failure, went with a bang. Luckily I knew someone who had a trashed G3AIO they didn't care about, and the P/S transplant was successful! By now you're getting the picture that I'm the stubborn type...) Probably the replacement drive was pulled from a PC, but I figure ATA is ATA... or maybe not?... Like I say, all the installs of Mac OS at all earlier levels went OK, and in general the drive seems to be pretty robust. Well, I can try to scrounge another drive, as no one weeps for 10 GB these days.

The interesting part will be to see if the USB 2.0 PCI card that I also scrounged will operate in this beast--if I can ever get this 10.2.8 update to take. I'll keep you posted! These multiple reinstalls certainly go slowly, and my chances are not that frequent.
 
Moving the 9.2.2 System folder to the second partition and doing the Erase/Install of 10.2, followed by the 10.2.8 combo update, didn't help. The new Verbose messages are shorter during bootup, though: it skips the ide1/@0.5 part and goes straight to ide1/@0.6. This just means the hangup comes quicker... BUT I just noticed something else: why in the world is it talking about ide1 when this is supposed to be an ATA drive??? I'm starting to suspect that this hybrid "IDE/ATA" hard drive from IBM is the problem. Maybe the kernel loader is being fooled into thinking the drive is an IDE, when the drive isn't set up that way. Gotta find me a for-real ATA drive.
 
Regarding my last post, maybe I'm all wet: a little research shows that ATA and IDE mean the exact same thing! So much for that idea...
 
I don't know if you have tried this, but it's worth a try making sure you're firmware's up to date. My iMac DV went completely haywire when I tried to install os x without the most up-to-date firmware. It took quite a bit of voodoo to get it back to normal.

Oh, and did you read this article about installing os x on all-in-one's?

Mac OS X

If you have a hard drive over 8 GB in size, you must partition it. The partition containing OS X must be within the first 8 GB of space or you will not be able to run OS X. (If you are creating the partion within OS X, it must be 7.45 GB or smaller as reported by Disk Utility, because sometimes a GB is billion bytes and sometimes it's 1,073,741,824 bytes.)

You can only boot OS X from a "master" drive in the beige G3. This applies to hard drives and CD-ROM drives. If the CD-ROM is set to slave, you will not be able to install OS X. If the hard drive is set to slave, you will not be able to boot from it.

Non-Apple upgrades and peripherals (such as unsupported USB devices, replacement drives, and third-party memory) may cause problems when installing or booting into Mac OS X.

Be sure to read and follow Apple's "Read Before You Install" instructions to increase the likelihood of getting OS X installed and running on the first try.

The beige G3 is not officially supported under OS X 10.3 (Panther), but it does work with 10.2.8 and earlier. Panther can be installed using XPostFacto 3, although built-in video is not currently supported.
 
Well, you have me stumped. :(

If you could find a 2 or 4 GB drive to try out internally to isolate the problem, that would be a good start. If the problem continues, then it is not the original drive.

Then if you had a 2 or 4 GB external SCSI drive to try we could isolate if it is the logic board itself or the ATA controller on the board that is causing the issues. If it is the ATA controller you could replace it with a PCI card.

At least that would be the methodology that I would try with the resources I have here. It is most likely something small that wouldn't trip up Mac OS X until the later versions. I've seen this type of thing with RAM.
 
Friends, the advice is much appreciated. Do you have a link for that article that you quote, eric2006? I don't think there are firmware updates that apply to the G3AIO. I checked at Apple, and the ones I saw were mostly for iMacs. Yes, I did try to read and follow the "Before You Install" doc. I could go with a smaller first partition; it's at 7.7 GB currently. But I'd think that 10.2 wouldn't install and run at all if the partition were too big.

RacerX, I'll continue to follow your plan of attack when I get the time. I don't see how it could be the ATA controller when I can install 9.2 and 10.2 and have everything working fine. Your RAM suggestion is interesting, but I can't pull my added DIMMs (as I've seen suggested elsewhere) because that would leave too little RAM.

Next up: reformatting the hard drive with the 10.2 Disk Utility instead of 9.2. I think I'll follow eric2006's suggestion and pare it down in size this time.
 
this beige macs do not have firmware, they have boot roms, which is why they are called old world macs. second, it does have the 8gig limit. it could be that the installer is having problems seeing the drive correctly (yes ata is the same as ide in your case). the installer may be seeing it as a scsi drive, which has no limit, but once updated to 10.2.8, the reboot uses the updated os, and drivers and sees that it is in fact an ide and gets stuck. also make sure that the hard drive is set to master, (ata/ide 0 drive 0) also check any scsi drives/devices you have. os x is VERY picky about scsi, so make sure your terminations are correct. as far as xpostfacto, i have used v2 on my ppc 7500 and 8600, and it worked great. so having used it and done some reading on it, i know there are a few cases of people that were not able to install os x on supported older macs without it. the numbers were small, but you may be one of the very lucky ones that fall in that group.
 
SUCCESS!!! I think the problem was with the jumpers on the hard drive. The IBM Deskstar (actually made by Hitachi) offers 16(!) configurations, including 4 different types of Masters and 4 different types of Slaves, all of which can be set using a pair(!) of jumpers. It turns out I was confused about the jumpers' setting and hadn't realized that it was actually way off, specifying "2 GB Clip - Cable Select"--bleah! Careful scrutiny of the diagram on the drive led me to realize that I needed to redo the jumpers to get what I wanted, "Normal Use - Master".

Following this light-bulb moment, I decided to give the drive one more shot. I used Disk Utility from the 10.2 CD to erase the hard drive and re-partition it into 7.4 and 2 GB chunks. (My previous main partition of 7.45 GB ought to have been OK , but I elected to give it an extra little margin.) I installed 10.2, then updated to 10.2.8, and voila! OS X grooviness at long last!

The unsystematic way I went about things leaves it unclear whether the ultimate solution really was the jumpers, the extra margin of 0.05 GB, or the OS X Disk Utility. But know what? I don't care. It works.

An interesting side note is that the display calibration was initially way off in 10.2.8. I had to do a complete recalibration using Display from System Preferences to get the view to be even halfway decent, instead of all dim and washed-out.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread! It was definitely your encouragement and ideas that kept me going. I will do a final post to let you all know if my Fast Ethernet and USB 2.0 PCI cards work. I'll also let you know if I manage to install 9.2 on the other partition and get dual booting to work. The ultimate test will be to see if I can now set up secure socket connections to other machines in my workplace (which was impossible using earlier versions of OS X, and was my original motivation for launching into all this).
 
Success upon success! I got the two PCI cards to work as well. The Asante Fast 590 card (10/100 Ethernet) posed no problem, using just the drivers I downloaded from their website. The VIA USB 2.0 card was a tougher nut. This card appears to be a variant of the VIA model 6212, downsized to fit into iMacs. My first attempt was to install drivers I downloaded from the Web at www.viaarena.com, thinking they would be the most recent ones available. But after a reboot, any little test such as plugging in a USB memory stick would result in a partial system freeze (no apps could be started or closed). Therefore I removed the drivers from /System/Library/Extensions--using sudo rm -r on two packages in there, VIAUHCIdriver.kext and VIAUSBEHCI.kext. I replaced these drivers with the MORE RECENT ones I found on their CD. Turns out the version on the CD is 1.4 vs. 1.1 on the Web, and in particular, the UHCI driver is more recent, 1.0.9/Nov. 2004 vs. 1.0.6/Sept 2004. However, still no luck (at least for the moment...).

I started to dig into the details of the kernel extensions that make the card work. In Terminal, you can view the extensions that have been loaded using kextstat. Taking that list, I began to play around with unloading and loading various USB-related extensions using kextunload and kextload (must be done with sudo). In the end, I focused on one extension whose reported class was com.mysoftwareguy.driver.VT6202, which looked like it had to be pretty much related. So I did "sudo kextunload -c" on just that one driver, and lo and behold, the USB started working!!!!! I think what happened was the older UHCI driver was getting loaded from the Extensions.kextcache during reboots, even though I had replaced it in the Extensions folder. The manual stop caused the newer one to be loaded from the Extensions folder upon the immediate auto-restart.

Anyhow, now I'm sitting here admiring a G3AIO that sports 4 USB ports!! I'm thinking maybe it could serve as a video jukebox somewhere down the road... How cool would that be?!

However, this old baby still has a serious working life for the moment. As I had hoped, the security pieces in 10.2.8 are enough to let me interoperate with my mostly-Windows workplace. So far I've tried doing Remote Desktop Connection to Windows Server 2003 machines, plus smb network drive connections, and everything functions perfectly.
 
The remaining oddity is that upon bootup the screen is always dim and low-contrast and I have to manually reset it with Display every time. I only need fiddle with the first page of Calibrate to make it nice again. But still, this is a nuisance. A Web search doesn't give me hope that this is fixable. Any advice? Perhaps I could write a little startup routine that resets the brightness and contrast, using AppleScript or a shell script?
 
oldmacsdiehard said:
The remaining oddity is that upon bootup the screen is always dim and low-contrast and I have to manually reset it with Display every time. I only need fiddle with the first page of Calibrate to make it nice again. But still, this is a nuisance. A Web search doesn't give me hope that this is fixable. Any advice? Perhaps I could write a little startup routine that resets the brightness and contrast, using AppleScript or a shell script?
Click to expand...

Maybe a reset of pram may help.
 
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