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nkuvu
Gone
Sounds like it is too late, judging from the tone of this post.
The difference is the tactics which MS uses to make that money. I dislike MS business tactics to an extreme degree. I will not support a company that I disagree with in a business fashion.
Keep telling yourself that. Don't look at things like the previous track record of MS security, because that would interfere with your world view. Also, don't look at the fact that Office has been found to send confidential information with the documents. Also ignore the number of bugs released with the major applications which may violate any protection scheme. Ideally, there are plenty of things preventing nefarious users from obtaining your sensitive information. This is only an ideal, however, which can be illustrated by the amount of nefarious actions (such as credit card fraud or identity theft) that are present in current computing society.
Based on the general tone of the rest of this post, this sounds like the following statement: "I make money because Apple sucks and sends people my way." I am pretty sure you don't mean it this way, so please explain.
And what exactly is an Apple Seeder?
Now let's consider a purely hypothetical situation. Let's say that there is a company, JoeSchmoe software. JoeSchmoe writes poor software, and charges a lot of money for it. JoeSchmoe has a track record of writing software with a significant number of critical security holes, and takes a long time before they fix those holes. JoeSchmoe software has been known to write software that is not in the best interest if its users (hiding Internet history files, for example, for no apparent reason). JoeSchmoe software company frequently writes software that is excessive in its size and "feature" list.
Now tell me honestly: Would you trust new software from JoeSchmoe? I am not asking if you would try it. I am asking if you would trust it implicitly.
MS helped Apple in the past, but I also believe that things are very different now. This is, of course, my own opinion. But I believe that MS is beginning to get more aggressive in their tactics. Consider the licensing scheme of Windows XP. That's all I really think I need to say about that subject.
I know.
I heard you the first four times. (This and other posts)
You're right, this is not a fight. I am not writing these words with flames in my eyes. (That would hurt!
) But this is a discussion as to why you think that since IE violates HTML standards it is the standard. This is also a discussion about the general software practices of MS. People can have a discussion without it being a fight. But when you become extremely defensive, I believe that shows that you are not comfortable with your side of the discussion. Reiterating that this is not a fight serves no purpose. Well thought out, fact-based statements are usually the best in discussions. Opinions should be marked as such. And if you can't rationally discuss this, perhaps you should stop discussing it at all. I am not trying to offend, or start a fight. But I do want to know why you think the things you do.*sigh* Only about a million times.
See the JoeSchmoe reference above for my response to this.well.... if you still don 't like M$ product cause they re made BY M$ and ONLYcause of that.. well.. go see a psyciatric..cause you probably need it..
dricci
Registered
Good Comeback! This really proves your point.
The point everyone is trying to make is, by supporting MS by writing "IE code" (AKA 'Non Standard') you are supporting a monopoly that could care less if their software is secure or their users are happy. They have all the money, they have consumers, corporations, and governments by the balls and they can get away with anything.
The Internet and computers were built around standards to allow choice and so nobody could be the soul controller. But we have companies like MS who want more and more so they make up their own rules and use their monopoly power to get everybody to play by their rules, taking away your freedom to choose how you experience the Internet. What ever happened with the web being owned by the People? Keep buying into this crap and you'll be nothing more than a wallet viewing what corporate America wants you to see and buying what they tell you.
And of course, that's when we get the blind followers who want to do the "popular thing" because it's "easier." What ever happened to "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right?" I guess you don't have to if you do it "1 Microsoft Way" (Yes, that is their Address.)
nkuvu
Gone
I am really disappointed, BBenve. I presented you with a logical, unemotional discussion about Microsoft and you returned with "Blah". I was hoping to have an intelligent discussion about this with someone who supports Microsoft -- but not a blind follower of the "One True Microsoft Way". *sigh* I guess I'll have to find someone else...
To answer ElDiabloConCaca, who said:
I continued to use MS because I found that there were things lacking in the Unices that I tried. Software, namely, but also ease of use. I can recompile my kernel, but I prefer not to. I want something that just works -- I work as a software developer, so I don't feel like coming home and working more on my computer to make the darn thing go.
While using MS products I frequently experienced crashes, lost data, lost hardware (fixed only by a full reinstall of the OS), et cetera et cetera ad nauseum. I experienced frustration with working (fighting) with the OS to do common tasks, and lost quite a bit of time on that computer.
So I have disliked Microsoft for a long time. The monopoly business and the XP licensing were the things that convinced me that I would never willingly pay for another MS product again. I'm not talking about warez, either. I have IE installed on the iMac, but only because it came installed with the computer. I keep it installed because my roommate uses it (she's not comfortable with other browsers) and also because sometimes I need to use it for secure transactions (my credit card company, for example, recognizes OmniWeb even if I tell it to identify itself as IE, and refuses to let me in).
Sorry this is long winded -- just wanted to make sure no one thinks I'm just saying "Me! I do, I do!" with nothing to back that sentiment up.
To answer ElDiabloConCaca, who said:
Count me in to that "I disliked MS before the monopoly garbage" camp. I have used Microsoft as my main OS for over seven years, beginning with Windows 95, and ending with Windows 2000. Along the way I also tried Win98 and WinNT. I bought my computer in 1995, and didn't replace it until I bought my new iMac this year. I never had the money to purchase a Mac before this, and was a little uneasy at the OS Macintosh made. Part of that was the fact that I couldn't get to a command line when I wanted to. In addition to my MS OS experiences, I installed RedHat Linux and FreeBSD (versions 2.1, 2.2, and 4.1) onto my machine at various points in time. I am used to the command line, and want to be able to get there when I want. Anyway, this isn't a story about CLIs, it's about MS.
I continued to use MS because I found that there were things lacking in the Unices that I tried. Software, namely, but also ease of use. I can recompile my kernel, but I prefer not to. I want something that just works -- I work as a software developer, so I don't feel like coming home and working more on my computer to make the darn thing go.
While using MS products I frequently experienced crashes, lost data, lost hardware (fixed only by a full reinstall of the OS), et cetera et cetera ad nauseum. I experienced frustration with working (fighting) with the OS to do common tasks, and lost quite a bit of time on that computer.
So I have disliked Microsoft for a long time. The monopoly business and the XP licensing were the things that convinced me that I would never willingly pay for another MS product again. I'm not talking about warez, either. I have IE installed on the iMac, but only because it came installed with the computer. I keep it installed because my roommate uses it (she's not comfortable with other browsers) and also because sometimes I need to use it for secure transactions (my credit card company, for example, recognizes OmniWeb even if I tell it to identify itself as IE, and refuses to let me in).
Sorry this is long winded -- just wanted to make sure no one thinks I'm just saying "Me! I do, I do!" with nothing to back that sentiment up.
simX
Unofficial Mac Genius
I have to say I liked Microsoft Word 5.1 and their products. But that was back in the day when there wasn't the constant problem of the internet, and when Microsoft WASN'T coding a security hole every other line of code.
Hahahahahahaha. OK, sorry, but I have to laugh at this.
You think that Microsoft doing illegal activities (the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the fact that Microsoft performed illegal activities, so anybody's opinion is moot at this point) is NOT a good reason to hate them? Ahahahahahaha. That's pretty funny.
Seriously, though. WHY NOT? That's EXACTLY what I dislike about Microsoft. All the BS stuff about how Internet Explorer is integrated into Windows and can't be taken out, and how they threatened to take Windows off the market just pisses me off. The fact that they brought AMD's CEO on the stand to testify about the dissenting states' proposed remedies when he HADN'T EVEN READ IT pisses me off. The fact that Microsoft has a security hole in Internet Explorer when you press the button but says that it's not a security vulnerability because it requires hackers to compel users to click the back button PISSES ME OFF (even if it ISN'T in the Mac version)!!
I mean, come on. It's TOTALLY VALID TO HATE MICROSOFT FOR ITS PRACTICE OF ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. It's totally stupid to say that that's not a valid reason.
Sheesh.
See nkuvu...it is very vwery hard to be logical with people that actually are illogical.... what i mean is... it is hard to be the only one that Thinks...and see things as they are not by whom they re made...
The answer blah... was as stupid as the answer someon gave me... as M$ suck and that 's it.. or... i hate M$ cause is M$ or even worse.. i hate EVERYTHING they make only cause it carry their logo"....is this logical??
well my answer is no..and i am sorry if that bother anyone.. the point is.. i judge things for how usefull they are to me .. for how much they can help me do my job better and easier ...and YES CHEEPER.
YES i care about money.. i would be totally illogical telling you i don't cxare...but that is NOT only a M$ thing...i believe EVERYONE here wants money...so?? is this wrong?? i guess not ..that is nature .. this is normal...as said Even Apple makes computer for money...shoudl we blame them?? no we pick Mac cause they.... Wrk better for us .. they re usefull they can do much for us ...and sometime.. we pick them EVEN if they re not the Cheeper thing...
M$ Ofice is 500$ is it worth compared to other?
A Mac (good one) is 3000$ is it worthed when you can get the same for 2000$?
well..at this point... if you say yes to the 2nd and no tto the first... s just cause you re an antiM$..cause Office for what it is (if you use it fully) is not expensive....
Same thing for the mac... a regular user.. will never discover how powerfull compared to a PC a Mac can be... as an Appleworks user will never fully appreciate Office cause is just way to much.
Again is not a brand thing.. if Appleworks is good enought..... Office is EXPENSIVE..otherwise it is NOT
Same thing for tyhe mac
IF i use it at it's full... is a good price... if i only use it to play around ..is DAMN expensive...
The answer blah... was as stupid as the answer someon gave me... as M$ suck and that 's it.. or... i hate M$ cause is M$ or even worse.. i hate EVERYTHING they make only cause it carry their logo"....is this logical??
well my answer is no..and i am sorry if that bother anyone.. the point is.. i judge things for how usefull they are to me .. for how much they can help me do my job better and easier ...and YES CHEEPER.
YES i care about money.. i would be totally illogical telling you i don't cxare...but that is NOT only a M$ thing...i believe EVERYONE here wants money...so?? is this wrong?? i guess not ..that is nature .. this is normal...as said Even Apple makes computer for money...shoudl we blame them?? no we pick Mac cause they.... Wrk better for us .. they re usefull they can do much for us ...and sometime.. we pick them EVEN if they re not the Cheeper thing...
M$ Ofice is 500$ is it worth compared to other?
A Mac (good one) is 3000$ is it worthed when you can get the same for 2000$?
well..at this point... if you say yes to the 2nd and no tto the first... s just cause you re an antiM$..cause Office for what it is (if you use it fully) is not expensive....
Same thing for the mac... a regular user.. will never discover how powerfull compared to a PC a Mac can be... as an Appleworks user will never fully appreciate Office cause is just way to much.
Again is not a brand thing.. if Appleworks is good enought..... Office is EXPENSIVE..otherwise it is NOT
Same thing for tyhe mac
IF i use it at it's full... is a good price... if i only use it to play around ..is DAMN expensive...
ElDiabloConCaca
U.S.D.A. Prime
I didn't mean that it wasn't a valid reason to hate Microsoft. I guess I need to rephrase that... hmmm... it just irks me that the whole Microsoft-monopoly thing has unleashed hordes of "lemming" individuals, who sat by quietly, used Microsoft software without giving it a second thought, then caught wind of some "monopoly" thing (concerning their advertising and bundling of programs -- NOT the quality or functionality of the programs) and then, all of a sudden, became Microsoft haters and started bitching about how their software sucks. Hate Microsoft. Hate Bill Gates. Don't hate the programs. Bill didn't write the programs. It's quite possible for a monopolistic company to produce some semi-decent software. Sure, if you wanna be all big-and-righteous-and-what-not and play the good samaritan, fine, don't use Microsoft products -- but that's extremely hipocritical, to me... in light of the fact that the $50 shirt you're wearing was produced in a third-world country by impoverished people... the meat you eat came from a cow who was locked in a pen and didn't take more than 10 entire steps in its whole life... 10% of the gasoline you use was made from oil that came from countries that supports terrorism... need I go on?
My point is that if you're going to be a righteous person and fight "the big evil" by refusing to use their products, you really don't have a right to be selective about who you do it to. You look like a major hippocrit. "The big evil" is everywhere, in everything -- get used to it -- and if you're going to be extremely adamant about not using a product because the company has used some shady advertising and business tactics while still producing a SEMI-decent product, maybe you should look around and see what other evils you're buying and using. Your energy would be much better spent trying to fight "evils" that are taking advantage of human beings, not their wallets, and letting the justice department take care of what needs to be taken care of.
nkuvu
Gone
This is what really irritates me about most activists.
There are a lot of problems with the world. I can't fix all of them. I can try, though. The whole "the meat you eat came from a cow who was locked in a pen and didn't take more than 10 entire steps in its whole life" doesn't apply to me -- I am a vegetarian, working on becoming vegan. That's one step that I have already made. I try to find out where my clothes were made, so that I am not supporting sweatshops. I have a fuel efficient car (about 35-40 miles per gallon) but I am still working on finding alternative transportation (Tucson is very spread out, so a bicycle is not very practical).
I have every right to be selective about the things that I boycott. There are things I can easily change, like my diet and where I buy my clothes. There are things I cannot easily change, like my transportation. One step at a time. I'd love to find out about someone who was a meat eating, resource abusing, throw everything away person who overnight switched to being the perfect environmentalist. I personally don't think it is possible.
I can live without Microsoft products on my computer, so I do so. It's not hypocritical at all if I recognize that I am no saint. But I'm working on it.
There are a lot of problems with the world. I can't fix all of them. I can try, though. The whole "the meat you eat came from a cow who was locked in a pen and didn't take more than 10 entire steps in its whole life" doesn't apply to me -- I am a vegetarian, working on becoming vegan. That's one step that I have already made. I try to find out where my clothes were made, so that I am not supporting sweatshops. I have a fuel efficient car (about 35-40 miles per gallon) but I am still working on finding alternative transportation (Tucson is very spread out, so a bicycle is not very practical).
I have every right to be selective about the things that I boycott. There are things I can easily change, like my diet and where I buy my clothes. There are things I cannot easily change, like my transportation. One step at a time. I'd love to find out about someone who was a meat eating, resource abusing, throw everything away person who overnight switched to being the perfect environmentalist. I personally don't think it is possible.
I can live without Microsoft products on my computer, so I do so. It's not hypocritical at all if I recognize that I am no saint. But I'm working on it.
ElDiabloConCaca
U.S.D.A. Prime
Whoa, hey, I am by NO means an "activist." I eats me some meat, dammit, and I don't think twice about where it came from (I also don't hunt, simply because there's enough meat in the supermarket freezer so I don't need to go out and kill anything else). I also wear a wide variety of men's clothing, only looking at the tag to see what size shirt it is -- not if it came from Canada, Turkey, Hong Kong, Thailand, or a sweat shop somewhere off of 6th street. I drive my car wherever I want to go, sometimes taking the long route just for the hell of it. And I use Microsoft products. In fact, this little IntelliMouse Explorer is pretty cool.
I am not an activist, but I frequently encounter people who claim to be. I encounter people fighting for a cause, all the while completely unwittingly contributing to another "world evil" in the process.
If you don't use Microsoft products, eat only vegetables and drive an electric car, more power to you. You've got it right and you've got your head on straight. But to those who drive old muscle cars, grill steaks every day and wear Gap clothing, don't bother opening your mouth about Microsoft. You're contributing to much more evil than you're taking away by denouncing your loyalty to Microsoft, and appearing to ME as a big hippocrit. Microsoft is a SMALL problem in the scheme of things, and as said many times before, they'll get what they deserve at the hands of the justice department... and if they don't, and we have another OJ Simpson thingy here, big friggin' deal. Apple can compete with Microsoft in its present monopolistic state. The world will not end, computers will thrive with multiple operating systems to choose from, and time will go on.
If anyone needs me, I'll be out back burnin' trees and grillin' steaks while running my gasoline generator just for the hell of it. In my Gap clothes, none the less...
I am not an activist, but I frequently encounter people who claim to be. I encounter people fighting for a cause, all the while completely unwittingly contributing to another "world evil" in the process.
If you don't use Microsoft products, eat only vegetables and drive an electric car, more power to you. You've got it right and you've got your head on straight. But to those who drive old muscle cars, grill steaks every day and wear Gap clothing, don't bother opening your mouth about Microsoft. You're contributing to much more evil than you're taking away by denouncing your loyalty to Microsoft, and appearing to ME as a big hippocrit. Microsoft is a SMALL problem in the scheme of things, and as said many times before, they'll get what they deserve at the hands of the justice department... and if they don't, and we have another OJ Simpson thingy here, big friggin' deal. Apple can compete with Microsoft in its present monopolistic state. The world will not end, computers will thrive with multiple operating systems to choose from, and time will go on.
If anyone needs me, I'll be out back burnin' trees and grillin' steaks while running my gasoline generator just for the hell of it. In my Gap clothes, none the less...
nkuvu
Gone
To this I refer you again to the JoeSchmoe software scenario. If a company has a history of producing garbage, I expect that the next thing that comes out will be garbage. Yep, just by looking at the logo. This does not mean that I won't try it. But there are problems with software that cannot be easily detected by the average user. Microsoft has a security hole when you press the 'Back' button on Internet Explorer on Windows. But they won't fix it, as simX already stated.
Giving an answer that you think to be stupid and worthless is not a great way to discuss things. And as I have already stated, yes I think it can be logical. Or not. It depends on context.
Again I refer you to the paragraph where I talk about the way they make their money.
No. Not for me. I use AppleWorks for most things, which is fine. Once Open Office is ported to OS X, I'll use that. I personally don't see a reason that MS needs to charge $500 for their Office suite.
Define "same". Same hardware? Well, it's really hard to compare processors, due to different architecture. Same software? No, I don't think so. Same OS? Not at all. So I pay an extra $1000 for a number of things. Usability, integration of hardware and software, a good OS, et cetera. There are, of course, different needs by different people. So saying that Mac OS X is the "One True Way" is just as stupid as saying Microsoft is.
I have never seen anyone use Office fully. There are so many features that I can't see how anyone would use everything. On top of that, there are a lot of features that Office doesn't do well at all.
You can use things without buying them. For example, I have run MS operating systems for seven years, using Office for about five. I finally dumped it for the free Star Office. So I am familiar with Office -- don't think that because I currently use a Mac that I am not familiar already with MS products.
I doubt that I use my Mac to its full potential. But I do appreciate that the OS is stable, and still usable. That's enough of a worth for me.
nkuvu
Gone
ElDiablo --
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that you were an activist at all. I meant in general.
You can fight for a cause and still not be perfect.
That's all I was trying to say. Of course, I do know a lot of people who claim to be perfect when in reality they are only perfect in one small area...
I think Microsoft may have gotten away with more if people didn't yell about the slap on the wrist they were going to get. Just my opinion, 'course.
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that you were an activist at all. I meant in general.
You can fight for a cause and still not be perfect.
That's all I was trying to say. Of course, I do know a lot of people who claim to be perfect when in reality they are only perfect in one small area...
I think Microsoft may have gotten away with more if people didn't yell about the slap on the wrist they were going to get. Just my opinion, 'course.
simX
Unofficial Mac Genius
Like nkuvu, I too am vegetarian. I'm not planning on becoming a vegan anytime soon, but I certainly don't plan to be a meat-eater again anytime soon. Furthermore, I don't drive at all even though I am of driving age, and if I do go somewhere, I usually bike or walk, and I don't have my parents drive me every 2 blocks.
And I don't even want to start about that thing on terrorism.
Like nkuvu said too, I have every right to be selective in choosing which evil to fight. If I want to fight the big evil monopoly called Microsoft, I can do that even if I was a meat-eating SUV driver. If I fight one evil, it doesn't necessarily mean that I have to fight all of them.
And, yes, I acknowledge that it is possible for a monopoly to make a semi-decent product, but while Microsoft Office may be awesome in functionality and form, I am constantly surprised at how many security holes that the developers, EVEN THE MACBU, overlooks. I mean, seriously, you can't have that many security holes without deliberately programming one every other line of code. Like Windows XP, Microsoft Office v.X may be the best version yet, but it still doesn't come close in my book.
Two other things: it's spelled "hypocrite", and I am having doubts about whether our justice system will ever deal with Microsoft appropriately. I just hope Judge Kollar-Kotelly has the intelligence to see through all of Microsoft's tactics.
Heh, although I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see something like President Bush trying to pardon Microsoft as a company.
No hard feelings, ElDiablo, but I just really do hate Microsoft, and you can't say I don't have a good reason, 'cause I d*** well do.
ElDiabloConCaca
U.S.D.A. Prime
My apologies go out to simX and nkuvu -- I was wrong about the people I was involved in this discussion with, and like simX said, no hard feelings were intended. I do encounter people as I have described daily at work and school, and their attitudes irk me somewhat as I pride myself in being a "different thinker," and I find that mindless conformity to anything is quite disturbing. I wish people would have more of a choice in operating systems (for example, at work...), and I wish that all operating systems were produced by "good" companies that took a genuine interest in their users' wants and needs.
That's not happening. I guess I would like to see all the people who are focusing all this negative energy in hating Microsoft to a more productive cause, like loving Apple! Let the pieces fall where they may, because we can't really do anything about it. We're not involved in the case and so we should do what we need to in helping Apple out -- not pushing Microsoft down.
If that makes any sense, wow, pat on the back to me... I've got that after-lunch sleepyness kicking in, so...
Oh, and simX, I am truly embarrassed. I usually spell quite well and not catching myself with "hypocrite" is making me turn red. Hehe... thanks for the catch. I guess if I'm going to go around calling people something (which I shouldn't be doing in the first place) I should at least learn how to spell it...
That's not happening. I guess I would like to see all the people who are focusing all this negative energy in hating Microsoft to a more productive cause, like loving Apple! Let the pieces fall where they may, because we can't really do anything about it. We're not involved in the case and so we should do what we need to in helping Apple out -- not pushing Microsoft down.
If that makes any sense, wow, pat on the back to me... I've got that after-lunch sleepyness kicking in, so...
Oh, and simX, I am truly embarrassed. I usually spell quite well and not catching myself with "hypocrite" is making me turn red. Hehe... thanks for the catch. I guess if I'm going to go around calling people something (which I shouldn't be doing in the first place) I should at least learn how to spell it...