Mac Mini as a server ?

Performance issues aside, I think Viro and contoursvt both make a very good point about power consumption. Where I live electricity is quite expensive (from both an economic and environmental stand point); compared to the alternatives, when operated 24/7, the mini's relatively low power consumption would save at least a few dollars a month in electric costs, adding up to hundreds of bucks (and tons of coal) over the course of its lifetime.

Where Michael lives, in Canada, electricity is generated mostly by hydro-power and is perhaps still relatively inexpensive. But kudos to Apple for continually manufacturing energy-star ranking products.
 
Ok.. so this topic has really gone, hasn't it?

let me answer some stuff..

NO. i did not thrash the out of NFS on my server. i said IT WORKS

i also said most TYPICAL MAC USERS won't even use it.

Also. As for your theory of Macs being prone to kernel panics... Our EDS-supported, enterprise level Novell Servers at work reboot more than either my G4 or G5. And they run on your lovely X86 hardware, with RAID SCSI and all that crap that people think makes a difference in the real world.

And yet. they crash. they ABEND (Abnormal End. it's novell's way of saying "this server has itself'). they require reboots. they reboot themselves, infact, for no apparent reason. and yet. they are all running on proper ridgy-didge server hardware/software.


I'm sure if apple's OS is enough to run Apple.com, and enough for Cisco, it's enough for us schmoes.

as for the memory issue. who specified the mini wouldn't be upgraded with more memory? 256 is just the STANDARD.


Yes. I am quite openly a mac zealot. do you know why?

I HAVE SEEN HOW THE REST CAN BE

I work in a Windows/Novell environment. My friends all use Windows. I have used a few Linux distros (mostly basic server setups, some desktop stuff) While Linux is fine and dandy for techie people. It has a LONG way to go before the average mac or windows user will be comfortable with it.

Through all of this my trusty mac's keep on keepin' on...

I don't suggest the mini for an enterprise server. buy an xserve, that's what it is for. but for a HOME, it will be ideal in my opinion. Remember- the fact that he asked about it, is proof enough that he isn't a trained tech.
 
Viro, you are either wilfully misunderstanding my posts, or not reading them carefully. Go take another look.

A comparison of Novell to OS X says nothing about anything other than the fact that Novell is unstable. My FreeBSD server, on a cheap box I put together for $300, goes many hundreds of days between reboots. The only reason it hasn't gone for a full year is because of power outages.
 
wyvern said:
Viro, you are either wilfully misunderstanding my posts, or not reading them carefully. Go take another look.

Funny how you are quick to point at someone else for not reading carefully. You missed post 1. Check that one out and take a look at how useful your response is.
 
I didn't realise this would be such a hot topic !

More specifications then. I want to run mail, ftp, sql and http services for about 5 domains and a few friends' that I wouldn't imagine would ever receive more than 1 000 pageviews (not hits) in one day combined, at least for the forseeable future. Mail, ftp and sql might together experience slightly heavier traffic but the limiting factor would probably be my connection (business DSL) and not my system.

Why did I mention this at all ? Well, my current Slackware box has only 128 megs of RAM (maxed out) and a paltry 6 GB or storage space. I was thinking of using something a little more powerful, but my secondary question 'is that rediculous' was pertinent because I can still get by all right with my current setup at least for now since my sites are hosted off-site.

Pengu said:
Remember- the fact that he asked about it, is proof enough that he isn't a trained tech.
Yes indeed sir! I thought that would be obvious to everyone...

I was just thinking that a Mac Mini would be relatively inexpensive for the power.

What don't I need ? RAID, terabytes of storage space, 50 gigs of RAM, multiple processors, multiple NICs, stuff like that. If I did I wouldn't even be asking about a machine that was designed to be a desktop box (even
though my current server is just that).

Thanks for all your replies, and sorry for starting a war :eek: (the same thing happened in my last translation class: an argument over the use of tall vs high nearly came to blows !). Maybe it's my midas-like touch...
 
Ok. well i still say it will do the job fine. I suggest more memory than standard though..


as for Novell. You said:
OS X is not ready for primetime

My point is this: are you saying that Netware isn't ready either? Because you might want to tell the world that. You said, we are blind and can't accept another product can do the job. i think you have that same problem. you won't accept anything less than a Dual 3Ghz Xeon Server with 4Gb of RAM and triple 10-Gigabit ethernet NICs. Of course, it will need 300Gig of Usable space from a SCSI RAID-5 Array, and dual powersupplys, just in case. Oh. and of course it will run only a *BSD because NO OTHER PRODUCT could POSSIBLY work. sweet jesus are you narrow minded.
 
You only have to look at Pengu's server machine to see that he knows what he's talking about.

PowerMac G4 400Mhz
832Mb RAM
40Gb + 120Gb HDD
OS X Server 10.3.7 - Web/Proxy/NAT/Firewall/Backup

The fiction that to have a server for your home network, you need to start looking at high-availability server equipment, is a lie that is widely pushed by PC manufacturers. How many home networks, serving out mail, firewall, music, movies and files, really need 100% uptime anyway?

If I were to install one of these as a server, it would really only be storing music, movies, writing, artwork, personal websites and so on. Based on my 4 years of experience with Mac OS X, it would probably be unavailable for all of ten minutes every year as it reboots for software updates. That might matter if it was providing high importance database applications to emergency services. If the most useful thing on the server is my webcomic and a forum, though, then why should I care if it goes down for five minutes once every few months?

Do I think the Mac mini would be an effective server? Sure.

Do I think it needs more memory, hard drive space, a RAID array, gigabit ethernet, uninterruptible power? No, no and no. You might want more memory to run it as a game server, but for any other purpose there's just no advantage in more RAM.

Lastly, I'd recommend against getting any extra software, like MACOSX Server or Darwin. There just isn't any margin in it. Maybe Darwin would server webpages 2-3% quicker without having the extras of MacOSX, but is it really worth trying to configure everything through the command line?
 
Maybe the mini would make a fine server but I think the point here is that for the same $$, its possible to have a more upgradable system to act as a server. Speed is probably not a main concern. I mean even a G3 can serve files fast enough over a network. So really, the concerns are upgradability, power consumption and size.

I think if I was going to build a fileserver for myself which was based on a Mac, I'd go for a used B&W G3 or a low end G4, both of which should be able to be purchased cheap. The G3 can probably be found for free - heck I can barely give mine away :) Anyway lets assume the lowly G3 B&W. Its a reliable box in my opinion and has good cooling and doesnt consume huge power. Its big enough to hold a second drive as well which is nice. Maybe I'm the only one thinking this way but I figure if nobody is going to be sitting in front of it and using it, then it doesnt really matter that its old and slow. I'm not sure what size drives the G3 can handle but I know a 120gig works because I've got a 120gig Seagate IDE in there right now. Its also a very quite machine. Although a used box like this has no warranty.

One last thing, Having two drives is kinda nice because you can run some kind of backup software or script to copy your data from one drive to the other on a weekly basis for example so even if something really bad happens to the main drive that holds your data, you can still have a fairly current backup. I guess on a mini, you can always get an external USB2.0 or firewire drive but then we get into more cables and power adapters kicking around. I hate external stuff :(
 
isn't Darwin been around for 10 years or more? you know including the days of NeXtstep...and since it is a derivative of BSD UNIX, it seems to me it is ready for the prime time.

As a mac zealot, I would use mac mini with Panther (or Tiger) installed.
 
right now I am running PostgreSQL 8.00rc5, Apache2.0, VNC server and Postfix. My machine runs fine so I believe the mac mini will run fine. Maybe increase the RAM memory
 
You only have to look at Pengu's server machine to see that he knows what he's talking about

thanks for the vote of confidence... but i can only really comment on my experiences.. im not Mac or OSX or Unix trained. Part of my Diploma training involved Linux...

Anywho. i think the general consensus is that for this particular case, a mini with OSX (not the server version, it's overkill. i only use it to expand my experience/knowledge) and maybe some more ram will be fine.
 
Why go to all the trouble of obtaining a G3, upgrading it, updating it, and then configuring the software when you can get a mini, plug it in, configure the software and be done with it for only a little more money? Sure, you can do all that to get the G3 working (and hey, I might actually choose to do that), but what if someone doesn't consider it worth his time and effort?
 
This is why I hate Mac users sometimes.

Ya get a little shell experience under your belt, and then the Gentoo phenomenon (see --teach-me-unix) takes over. I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this, but apparently I must. So, here goes.

This was never about how much CPU power the Mac Mini has. For a server, the disk is almost always much more important than the CPU power, yet people look at 1.42GHz and think "oh yeah that's plenty of power".

1. Laptop drives run hot. They're miniaturized, which reduces the cooling capability that's inherent in that large metal enclosure that normal (3.5") drives enjoy. And, a server is going to see more drive access, by its very nature, than a desktop. See the above paragraph. Heat reduces the life of pretty much every electronic device, and hard drives are no exception. This wouldn't be so much of a factor except for the fact that there's very little active cooling in the Mini, and no room for more.

2. Laptop drives are slow. They're designed to be small and conserve power while maintaining a minimal level of functionality. They do this very well. What they do not do well is speed. I know this for a fact. I run a large and popular server, and I know that many of the people who access it have laptops. None of them has ever gotten more than 16MB/sec off of it. Desktop users can regularly get 35MB/sec or more. This is the case when they are hooked into my switch, thus dodging the possible congestion at the main routers. (This is on a gigabit network, so network capacity is not the bottleneck.)

3. Mac OS X is not ready for server use. This doesn't mean that it won't work as a server. This means that other things that are available work better, and that you would be well-advised to use them instead. Yes, some large installations run OS X. That is because it's very easy to administer for certain tasks, and with a ton of systems at one's disposal, if one reboots it's not such a huge issue. When you have only one system, and it is controlling your music or your net connection, a reboot is a big pain.

So, taking the previous points into account, we have some choices.
- Use a desktop Mac with Mac OS X, accepting the possible stability and adminstration issues. Mac hardware can be expensive to purchase, and OS X is not an optimal server OS, but if you have an old Mac lying around, this could be a viable option. Buying new, inexpensive PC hardware is a better choice than buying an old Mac.

- Use a desktop Mac, but running YDL or NetBSD or another variant (Darwin is a joke; don't bother. You might as well run Contiki.). Again, this should only be considered if you have a source for very cheap/free Mac hardware, but NetBSD is a better option than OS X for servers.

- Use a desktop PC, with any one of tons of OS choices. I like FreeBSD for various reasons, but getting you guys to acknowledge a PC as a valid choice will be a big step, so let's just stick with *N*X as the OS. PC hardware is very cheap, and it sounds like you have a case already for your Slackware box, so you can just replace the guts for that. New memory, motherboard, cpu, and hard drive will probably cost you about $300, which is probably about what you would spend if you bought a used Mac.

So, to wrap up. The Mac Mini will work as a server. I never said it wouldn't. But, $500 will buy you a plenty powerful PC, with no cooling issues, and the potential for upgradeability so that you won't tend to be stuck in the situation you're in now, when that 80GB seems really small, just like that 6GB does now.
 
I think YDL is not ready for desktop because there isn't many applications available (like Firefox). I installed it on my iBook and it ran great for awhile until I realized that I couldn't use some of my favorite applications because it wasn't available. I said to hell with it I am reinstalling Panther. You may hate mac users but it seems to me you act like them.
 
Now you're throwing insults at me....shame on you. I was merely suggesting against using YDL....I believe Linux on mac is not ready for anything except testing and development. Now, I await your irate response to me
 
The fact that the lack of firefox is quite irrelevant to server use didn't occur to you? I don't happen to like Linux much, but it is an acceptable choice for server use, if carefully administered. However, the fact that you can't manage to compile a fairly standard piece of software under YDL does not say anything about the operating system, unless you can supply more details (e.g. it comes with a broken gcc, etc).
 
michaelsanford said:
I didn't realise this would be such a hot topic !

More specifications then. I want to run mail, ftp, sql and http services for about 5 domains and a few friends' that I wouldn't imagine would ever receive more than 1 000 pageviews (not hits) in one day combined, at least for the forseeable future. Mail, ftp and sql might together experience slightly heavier traffic but the limiting factor would probably be my connection (business DSL) and not my system.

Why did I mention this at all ? Well, my current Slackware box has only 128 megs of RAM (maxed out) and a paltry 6 GB or storage space. I was thinking of using something a little more powerful, but my secondary question 'is that rediculous' was pertinent because I can still get by all right with my current setup at least for now since my sites are hosted off-site.


Yes indeed sir! I thought that would be obvious to everyone...

I was just thinking that a Mac Mini would be relatively inexpensive for the power.

What don't I need ? RAID, terabytes of storage space, 50 gigs of RAM, multiple processors, multiple NICs, stuff like that. If I did I wouldn't even be asking about a machine that was designed to be a desktop box (even
though my current server is just that).

Thanks for all your replies, and sorry for starting a war :eek: (the same thing happened in my last translation class: an argument over the use of tall vs high nearly came to blows !). Maybe it's my midas-like touch...

well, you saw the pros and cons of using Mac mini and Mac OS X as a server OS(the cons is still in debate)...I guess it is up to you to decide.

If Mac OS X is unsuitable for server needs...at least I know Jordan Hubbard will make it suitable.
 
I'll remember to tell Steve Jobs' it isn't suitable next time Apple.com isn't available because the servers crashed...
 
mkwan said:
I think YDL is not ready for desktop because there isn't many applications available (like Firefox). I installed it on my iBook and it ran great for awhile until I realized that I couldn't use some of my favorite applications because it wasn't available. I said to hell with it I am reinstalling Panther. You may hate mac users but it seems to me you act like them.
Uh?!?!

Why doesn't Firefox run on the Mini? I've been using it on my Mac since when it was originally called Firebird and Phoenix before that.

Apllications don't need to be re-compiled to run on the Mini do they? It's a regular G4 OS X machine... Right?
 
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