.Mac Petition
- Thread starter spitty27
- Start date
simX
Unofficial Mac Genius
Like I said, "completely unbiased" does not constitute blaming Apple for things that Microsoft has done (charge outrageous prices for Microsoft Office).
"Completely unbiased" does not constitute spreading misinformation that you have to spend "$2000" to get Microsoft Office files to open, when you can actually buy AppleWorks for $79 (and it is bundled free with iMacs, eMacs, and iBooks). His exaggeration isn't the point it's that he's just saying that you have to spend a lot of money to open Windows files on the Mac, which is completely untrue.
"Completely unbiased" does not constitute saying untrue things about eMac sales in the education market.
Oh, and "completely unbiased" does not mean ignoring all of the illegal things that Microsoft has done and jumping on this .Mac fiasco.
It sounds like I touched a nerve with SimX. I wasn't trolling, everything I said was true. I'm experiencing it right now with my Mac.
Office v.X cost me around $400, Adobe Photoshop 7 another $500, it's been an expensive month.
And no, I would have not been able to open all my Windows files and documents "seemlessly" without these purchases. It's funny how Apple neglects to mention the notion that additional software may be required.
Apple really shafted some people this time around. Their switch campaign should now be renamed to "bait & switch" because esentially that's what they've done, especially with their migration to .mac.
Many will switch to a Mac from PC then realize the initial investment was just one of many that it's going to take to get their new Mac in line with their old PC.
They sold everyone on the idea that the .mac email would be free, forever, getting you to use iTools and becoming dependent on it. Now they are taking it all away from you unless you're willing to fork over $100 anually. That's a lot of cash for very little substinance.
It's called bait & switch. MS and Yahoo did it as well with their email services. The only difference is they continue to offer free basic services.
It's not going to affect me because I never used iTools. But I sincerely feel for all those who are going to have to change their email and find a new solution. What a terrible inconvience is will likely be.
simX
Unofficial Mac Genius
You know, it's polite to talk to people directly rather than referring to them in the third person. But I guess you wouldn't care anyway.
And yes, you touched a nerve, because everybody (especially you) is blowing this completely out of proportion.
Nobody made you buy Office v.X. $400 (isn't it $499?) is outrageous for a suite of Office apps like that when $79 AppleWorks will do just fine. And Photoshop has nothing to do with this argument because you'd still have to pay for that on Windows.
Yes, additional software like AppleWorks... which is included with all iMacs, eMacs, and iBooks. You probably got a professional Mac so Apple (stupidly) doesn't bundle it, but it's certainly a better deal than $500 for MS office.
Actually, no. You conveniently (again) forget that there's all the digital hub applications, there's the awesome OS, and there's the high quality (different from high-end features like DDR RAM) of the parts used in Apple's hardware. That's what the beauty of the Mac platform is.
But of course you just concentrate on the .Mac fiasco.
As I said before, $100 is very reasonable for the features Apple is offering. But of course you just look at iDisk and the e-mail account.
I agree with you here. It was a bad decision to axe the free e-mail accounts. But that doesn't justify the Apple-bashing that you've posted above and with your previous posts.
I'm not bashing Apple. I love my PB G4 DVI. I'm just being honest. People bash MS to no end around here, why don't you go jump on their asses?
No, AppleWorks won't work with my PowerPoint presentations, embedded Word documents and Outlook. When you're a professional, you can't afford to goof around trying to find a solution in AppleWorks or whatever when Office if what you've been using and what you use it for is mission critical.
Preview really does little for my Photoshop work as well and the built in cd burning OS X offers pales in comparison to Nero.
I didn't switch, I still use my PC but I want my PB to be just as affective and I for one don't mind spending the money to get it on par with my PC but many users making the switch are not going to realize the potential investment way beyond just buying the iMac.
Yes, Office is outrageously priced but I needed it and for what I use it for, I can't afford to pirate it.
I'm not turning this .mac fiasco into a excuse to bash Apple. It doesn't affect me whatsoever, I don't use iTools. My concern lies in the millions that do and are going to be seriously inconvieneced.
So I bring several ideas to light that Apple is esentially pulling a bait & switch with there ad campaign and now .mac. So what? Does what I'm saying not have any merit whatsoever?
My Microsoft switch back campaign was just a parody. Don't get so up-tight about a joke. You call me a troll because of it then continue to bash MS to no end in all your follow-up posts. What gives?
What is true is Apple is skating on thin ice with Microsoft and now with their user base. This has potential to backfire terribly on both fronts. I don't know what Jobs has been drinking but he really just needs to simma dow na. He's becoming too agressive too soon and one wrong move is going to cost him dearly.
All I was saying is the switch campaign makes it seem as if everything will open "seamlessly" just by the grace and magic of OS X.
People dump their PC for the Mac, find out nothing opens without dumping hundreds of dollars more into the machine, this is called bait & switch.
Switching to a Mac is an expensive investment, not just because of the hardware but because of the software as well.
You have to realize as well PC users expect MS Office to come with their computers. It's almost impossible to buy a PC without it. PC users take little things like this for granted and it is a shock to find Macs don't really ship with any productivity applications like Office.
Apple is more concerned with their "digital hub" wich many PC users could care less about.
The migration from PC to Mac is a little more difficult and a lot more expensive than Apple makes it seem.
simX
Unofficial Mac Genius
Because usually their bashing is founded.
I'll give you the PowerPoint thing (WTF is an embedded Word doc, and what files does Outlook have?). But no, themacko, I'm not an absolute moron I was referring just to Word files. I didn't think about PowerPoint.
You've been making more sense when you clarify your positions. But saying things like that the eMac wasn't selling and that's why Apple opened up to everybody is just moronic when you don't back it up. Ditto with many of your other statements.
I know it was. But it echos exactly what you think.
I dunno. Maybe. But many Windows users are ignorant of other platforms like the Mac and they would stand to benefit to switch. Plus, things like the lifespan of a Macintosh and the less time/money you have to put into troubleshooting haven't been brought up yet and they're probably best left to a different thread.
But Apple's Real People campaign is dead on: to show regular users that many Windows users have switched and that their switch has been comfortable. All of the people in the ad campaign are not actors.. they're saying exactly what they think.
If Microsoft has to "act" on this aggressiveness, they'll probably just follow through with Kevin Browne's threat to axe Microsoft Office from the Mac platform, showing just how much of an illegal monopoly they really are. If Microsoft's users conscientiously choose Windows over the Macintosh because they have at least used the Mac for a bit, I'm fine with that. But there's nothing wrong in educating the masses that the Mac is actually a viable platform, and that's all that Apple is doing here.
jeb1138
Carioca
Here's to that. Azosx, you seem like a relatively smart guy, but posts like the above are far from "few and far between" from you. It takes so little to make one's posts useful in a forum like this -- a link, some specific details, one or two specific examples, and an even tone.
It also takes very little to make them useless, e.g. throwing out names, vagues references or muddled opinions with no substantial explanation. If you feel you haven't the time to respond with care due the tremendous amount of replying you "have" to do, you might consider that fewer, more substantive posts would contribute significantly more to the community we have here.
There are better ways of disagreeing than vengeful, acidic and angrily provocative remarks. Your incessant, angry criticism towards and replies to some of the most respected and helpful members of this forum (Ed Spruiell, SimX, etc. -- not myself) only emphasize this point. There are more constructive ways of sharing your opinion and having an intellectual discussion. These include building on others' ideas, offering original solutions, bringing in outside information, and, on occasion, offering constructive criticism.
You're not the only one guilty of this and I'm not completely innocent myself. However, for the number of posts you make you offer very little of substance.
Shall we let the man speak for himself?
The problem is not with the ideas behind these statements. The problem results from you never offering any real information or even links with these brash statement, and from the anger in every one of them.
That's my opinion, at least.
boi
official breaker of macs.
i didn't say "completely unbiased. if you're going to quote me, do so correctly. i was just tired of you jumping on azosx because he offers a different opinion. he IS unbiased and he did NOT blame apple. he's just blaming apple because they said his stuff will open flawlessly. it did not.
this has nothing to do with him being bias. it has everything to do with his exaggeration. don't talk to me, i'm just trying to keep the peace here without name calling and bashing. try to have an open mind, man. no one is out to get you.
if you'll notice, i ALREADY asked about this. chill man.
"yeah, well, apple may charge for stuff you can get for free, but... Microsoft has done illegal stuff! yeah! take that!" c'mon, microsoft's illegal doings are NOT the issue. you jumped on azosx because he complained about his experience with Apple.
try and be civil peepz. most of all, be happy ^_^. this forum is just for fun and info! Share The Wealth!
- chill.
[ boi ]
By embedded Word docs I mean when you create docs with Word that use features only specific to Word like inserting PP presentations, graphs, images, special characters and formatting. When you try to open these doc files in other apps, they look like a garbled mess. As for Outlook, I can't transfer my address book and emails to AppleWorks can I? It's nice to have a complete intergrated solution like MS Office.
My eMac statement has merit as well. Why would Apple release it for education only only to release it to everyone less than a month later? It was never intended to compete with the new iMac and threatened to saturate their G4 line completely. Apple needed to start moving stock before the next quarter and keeping the eMac in the education department wasn't doing this. You're right, no hard evidence ever pointed to this but the suggestion was made by serveral who reported on it's release for everyone. It makes more sense than people demanded it. Apple's main concern is their bottom line, everything else comes second. They wouldn't do anything for their customers that would cost them finacially.
Much of the MS crap posted around here is unfounded as well. The most popular right now being Palladium.
I don't think MS will pull support for Apple in light of it's recent conviction for monopolistic practicies. Jobs is betting on this and using it to his advantage. MS has other ways though to put the squeeze on Apple and if they can show they are losing money by producing Office for Mac, they would have every reason in the world to pull support for it.
DualG4X
Registered
sim people are pissed at apple and making a big deal because .mac now cost 99dls, and u say that its not that much for what u get, well yeah but no one needs all that crap to beging with, all they need is that 5mb .mac email account. and apple knows it , so their adding some extra features and charging everyone for all of them. that to me is a a really bad scam
evildan
Super Moderator
Okay here it is...
Sombody needs to take it from here...
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To: Apple Computer, Mr. Steve Jobs
We, the undersigned, would like you to consider the following as a voice of protest against Apple's proposed "upgrades" to the .mac service (formally known as iTools). The services for which Apple has decided to charge for and the manner in which they have announced this decision, mandate our response.
Our primary worry is the loss of our email address. Most of us, the undersigned, have embraced what we feel to be the best email service on the internet in iTools. We have distributed our email addresses to friends, family and co-workers as a way of promoting our pride in being a member of the Apple community. We feel that by charging for these services, that were once free, the .Mac service is no longer a useful way of conveying these messages to our PC counterparts.
Although email is by far the most widely used feature of the iTool services amongst us, it should be noted that we also have concerns regarding the other services as well.
Homepage, iCards and iDisk were services that iTools offered free of charge. The simple fact that Apple has now decided to charge us for these services does nothing but inspire a boycott of this and all future proposed free-services Apple might announce. How can the Apple user community ever embark in a trusted relationship and dependency of a free service knowing full well that Apple might take it away with little to no warning. Some of us have had our @mac.com mail addresses for years. And in that time, we have established a relationship, commitment and dependency on the once free internet services Apple provided. Now we have been informed that this service will be terminated, much to our disappointment.
Virus Protection, Backup and Support further scoff the proposed purchaser of the .Mac package, as these are utilities and options that are widely available on the web for free.
McAffe is considered, by the undersigned, to be an inferior product with a higher price tag in comparison to its competitors (Such as VirusBarrier from Intego software).
Tech Support for iTools is unnecessary as it seems to have always run with great success in the past. And there are no widely known compatibility or performance issues that would mandate Apples decision to dedicate a support staff for it.
Backup, another .mac feature, is also a considerable disappointment which hardly entices us to purchase the .mac package. In addition to the fact that 3rd party backup utilities are widely dispersed as freeware on the web, backup will no doubt be an unpopular feature, in our opinion, simply for the fact that we feel people are not ready, or willing, to backup sensitive data on a remote server as a primary option. This might function as a 2nd or, more likely, a 3rd backup option for most, but that hardly values an annual subscription fee.
These fore mentioned services obtained in the .mac package hardly make up for the annual subscription fee Apple proposes we pay. So as a result we end up overpaying for a once fre email account. This seems very silly to us.
In your keynote (July 17th 9AM ET) you mentioned Apples shift in philosophy as a result of the trend associated with other companies that offered free file, web and email services. It is our opinion that these services failed because of their popularity. As the demand for these services occurred, more server space and resources were required, resulting the overall profitability to decrease. Thus a charge was associated with the free service and the bulk of the user population left or found alternative services elsewhere. We feel Apple will see a similar trend, as a result of their mistake in charging for once free services.
It was our understanding that iTools was designed as a service to current Macintosh owners and would also entice people to buy Macintosh products. Instead Apple has turned it into a way to make money off of something that was promised to be free for life.
We realize that Apple operates as a company, with its primary function focused on profitability. We also realize that these services cannot continue to be free of charge for life. However, there is a simple solution to this dilemma.
Allow a limited free option to the .mac services. Provide at least email services for free. Those that wish to upgrade could be charged whatever you deem to be fair and reasonable. Popularity in the email service will serve as a promotional tool to the upgraded .mac services.
In summation Apples .mac services hardly constitutes the proposed $99/year value. We suggest a reformation of those services and an alternative free option for those of us who dont find the value of the other features. Furthermore we consider the .mac package to counteract Apples digital-hub philosophy by charging for otherwise free services which distinguish Apples product line from their competitors.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
Sombody needs to take it from here...
-----------
To: Apple Computer, Mr. Steve Jobs
We, the undersigned, would like you to consider the following as a voice of protest against Apple's proposed "upgrades" to the .mac service (formally known as iTools). The services for which Apple has decided to charge for and the manner in which they have announced this decision, mandate our response.
Our primary worry is the loss of our email address. Most of us, the undersigned, have embraced what we feel to be the best email service on the internet in iTools. We have distributed our email addresses to friends, family and co-workers as a way of promoting our pride in being a member of the Apple community. We feel that by charging for these services, that were once free, the .Mac service is no longer a useful way of conveying these messages to our PC counterparts.
Although email is by far the most widely used feature of the iTool services amongst us, it should be noted that we also have concerns regarding the other services as well.
Homepage, iCards and iDisk were services that iTools offered free of charge. The simple fact that Apple has now decided to charge us for these services does nothing but inspire a boycott of this and all future proposed free-services Apple might announce. How can the Apple user community ever embark in a trusted relationship and dependency of a free service knowing full well that Apple might take it away with little to no warning. Some of us have had our @mac.com mail addresses for years. And in that time, we have established a relationship, commitment and dependency on the once free internet services Apple provided. Now we have been informed that this service will be terminated, much to our disappointment.
Virus Protection, Backup and Support further scoff the proposed purchaser of the .Mac package, as these are utilities and options that are widely available on the web for free.
McAffe is considered, by the undersigned, to be an inferior product with a higher price tag in comparison to its competitors (Such as VirusBarrier from Intego software).
Tech Support for iTools is unnecessary as it seems to have always run with great success in the past. And there are no widely known compatibility or performance issues that would mandate Apples decision to dedicate a support staff for it.
Backup, another .mac feature, is also a considerable disappointment which hardly entices us to purchase the .mac package. In addition to the fact that 3rd party backup utilities are widely dispersed as freeware on the web, backup will no doubt be an unpopular feature, in our opinion, simply for the fact that we feel people are not ready, or willing, to backup sensitive data on a remote server as a primary option. This might function as a 2nd or, more likely, a 3rd backup option for most, but that hardly values an annual subscription fee.
These fore mentioned services obtained in the .mac package hardly make up for the annual subscription fee Apple proposes we pay. So as a result we end up overpaying for a once fre email account. This seems very silly to us.
In your keynote (July 17th 9AM ET) you mentioned Apples shift in philosophy as a result of the trend associated with other companies that offered free file, web and email services. It is our opinion that these services failed because of their popularity. As the demand for these services occurred, more server space and resources were required, resulting the overall profitability to decrease. Thus a charge was associated with the free service and the bulk of the user population left or found alternative services elsewhere. We feel Apple will see a similar trend, as a result of their mistake in charging for once free services.
It was our understanding that iTools was designed as a service to current Macintosh owners and would also entice people to buy Macintosh products. Instead Apple has turned it into a way to make money off of something that was promised to be free for life.
We realize that Apple operates as a company, with its primary function focused on profitability. We also realize that these services cannot continue to be free of charge for life. However, there is a simple solution to this dilemma.
Allow a limited free option to the .mac services. Provide at least email services for free. Those that wish to upgrade could be charged whatever you deem to be fair and reasonable. Popularity in the email service will serve as a promotional tool to the upgraded .mac services.
In summation Apples .mac services hardly constitutes the proposed $99/year value. We suggest a reformation of those services and an alternative free option for those of us who dont find the value of the other features. Furthermore we consider the .mac package to counteract Apples digital-hub philosophy by charging for otherwise free services which distinguish Apples product line from their competitors.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
So, Photoshop and Nero come with a PC do they??(sarcasm if you can't tell)
You can't complain about having to buy Photoshop for the Mac, or complain about CD burning in OS X and comparing it to an application you bought.
MS only integrated CD burning into their OS after Apple brought it out in OS X.
You can't complain about having to buy Photoshop for the Mac, or complain about CD burning in OS X and comparing it to an application you bought.
MS only integrated CD burning into their OS after Apple brought it out in OS X.
The problem is I am usually 1 of 10-15 users in a post offering a different point of view. It's quite difficult to be very detailed when I'm trying to reply back to several different users at once.
Your quote refers to the Palladium discussion I got involved with. Nobody posting the "merits" of Pallidium had any substantial evidence to back up their claims as well.
My posts are fairly reflective. The more detailed the discussion becomes, the more to the point I become by backing up what I'm saying with hard evidence.
Posts like the one you quoted me from were basically just general discussion and little to no hard evidence was being presented on either side.
I'm not trying to change anyone's way of thinking by posting my different point of views, I just try and present a different way of thinking that may or may not give others something more to think about and discuss.
As for being angry or critical I don't quite agree. SimX turned to name calling in this discussion, I did not. He did not attempt to build upon my idea but squash it in it's tracks. Through my amazement and I think for the first time, someone actually discussed the merit of what I was saying and didn't follow SimX in flaming me. Honestly, depending on the time of day my mood changes. I mean no disrespect to people if I appear course. Being a new member of a forum where everyone is against you can create a tension most visible in one's writings.
Yes, they come with the burner when you buy it, not with the computer.
If you buy a burner for a Mac, it will most likely come with Toast.
Snowball
Switched the Other Way
I can't quite figure out how this thread has gone so wildly off topic, but evildan, let me be the first to congratulate you on that great letter. It gets the point across in a very effective manner.
The only problem is that it would be easier to start a new petition than get special permission from petitiononline.com's admins to revise the original petition. I really hope Steve Jobs does read it, because all of it rings very true. Apple has messed up iTools, and enough users are angry enough to try to fix the problem.
The only problem is that it would be easier to start a new petition than get special permission from petitiononline.com's admins to revise the original petition. I really hope Steve Jobs does read it, because all of it rings very true. Apple has messed up iTools, and enough users are angry enough to try to fix the problem.