Microsoft tries to steal Macworld thunder

[jeb1138]

Originally posted by azosx
What's the difference between Palladium which as of now is vaporware, and the control Apple has on it's hardware?

It's all about protecting ... from peons like ourselves who manage to take advantage of them any chance we get. Be it ripping mp3's or downloading warez by the GB, we're all guilty of it one way or the other and they're just trying to put a stop to it.

Several idiots wrote articles about what Palladium "could turn into", so what? You people take it to heart like it actually exists today. I liken it to the panic that insues everytime someone reads an EULA. The crazy stuff software companies put in there are only to protect themselves in the off chance someone finds a way to totally exploit them.

The same with MS Product Activation. Months before it came out, people were crying "the end of the world." As of today, has one person been harmed or effected by it? No. I haven't even read a story about someone having to get a new serial because they installed too much hardware. It's all silliness spread by who have nothing better to do than fear.

Until I get a Palladium box that doesn't allow me to install Linux, I'm not buying into this paranoid BS everyone is trying to spread. If it doesn't allow me to rip mp3's or download and install warez, more power to them.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. There is absolutely no correlation between Palladium and "the control Apple has on it's hardware," except the word "control."

Apple tries to compete by offering a simple, controlled environment. Microsoft simply tries to control the environment so that it doesn't have to compete.

About those 'idiots,' since I appear to be one, that write about Palladium's potential. Firstly, please don't result to personal insult as a way of presenting your opinions. This gets you nothing except disrespect. Secondly, any time somebody tells me 'not to worry' about something because it's 'so far away' (it is not vaporware, by the way -- read those articles and you will find that parts of Palladium have already been deployed in various places) I get suspicious.

Microsoft didn't get the power to be a monopoly in a day, and if people had worried about what could result from their illegal activities whilst they were practicing them we would not be in the quandry that we are in today, when even numerous states and the Federal government together can't break up Microsoft, after finding them guilty of monopolistic practices, for fear of the negative consequences for the American economy.

About MS Product activation: if you haven't heard about people having problems after installing new hardware, you must know very different people than I do. I know several people whose fanatical Microsoft defense has been broken solely because of the wealth of problems and inconveniences that it has created for so many of them. Why hasn't there been a revolt? Microsoft doesn't really have to listen to them to remain dominant.

As for our 'illegal' activities -- we are not 'guilty' of ripping MP3's if we own the CD's. MS, the RIAA, the MPAA and others propose to protect their profits by exterminating (or making extremely difficult) our 'less-important choices.' And any copy-protection scheme of the sort that these people propose does and will limit, constrict and frustrate the legitimate user.

Some people will make wrong choices and the guilty should be punished. However, I do not believe that the entire society should be subjugated to overarching and interfering control of the minute details (e.g., listening to music) of their everyday lives by the government. That would be communism.

And pertaining to all these things in general, the solution is not as simple as saying "if people don't want it they won't buy it." Microsoft, the RIAA and the MPAA don't want to leave it up to the free market. They try to use legislation and monopolistic powers to ensure their own 'domestic tranquility.'

And as to "If it wasn't MS controling the way you live, it would be someone else, possibly Apple" -- I don't know where you come from or what your country believes, but in America we believe that one is innocent until proven guilty, and such 'guesstimate' slander holds no water for educated minds.

 

[voice-]

Originally posted by azosx
What's the difference between Palladium which as of now is vaporware, and the control Apple has on it's hardware?

Apple decides what you have in your Mac when you buy it and can base an OS on that. MS wants to have total control after you set your system up too.
with a Mac you can, as with any OS today, install any application or keep any document you'd like, it's yours and you rule it...with Palladium this freedom would be gone, MS would be able to, at any time, tell you that they don't want you running this and that cause it's a risk to security(i.e. it's competing software, you should have bought MSs software)

 

[edX]

Microsoft didn't get the power to be a monopoly in a day, and if people had worried about what could result from their illegal activities whilst they were practicing them we would not be in the quandry that we are in today, when even numerous states and the Federal government together can't break up Microsoft, after finding them guilty of monopolistic practices, for fear of the negative consequences for the American economy.

AMEN BROTHER!! the time to do something about things is not after they have become the feared reality - it is at the first indication they will become that reality. Fear is a survival instinct. When we fear something, it is our instincts telling us something is wrong. We have a fight or flight instinct attached to fear. Believe me when i say, it is easier to fight against a threat before it is powerful than to flee it once it is.

fear is only wrong when it debilitates you to the point you can take no action. It is a powerful tool when it motivates us to take control of our own futures rather than have one handed to us by the powers that be.

 

[azosx]

Originally posted by voice-


Apple decides what you have in your Mac when you buy it and can base an OS on that. MS wants to have total control after you set your system up too.
with a Mac you can, as with any OS today, install any application or keep any document you'd like, it's yours and you rule it...with Palladium this freedom would be gone, MS would be able to, at any time, tell you that they don't want you running this and that cause it's a risk to security(i.e. it's competing software, you should have bought MSs software)

The bottom line is none of what you're saying is true. Everything about Palladium being spread is some idiot's theory on what it might be used for. It doesn't exist. It may never exist. You have no idea what the end product may actually turn out to be if it does indeed succeed.

 

[RyanLang]

Originally posted by Ed Spruiell


AMEN BROTHER!! the time to do something about things is not after they have become the feared reality - it is at the first indication they will become that reality. Fear is a survival instinct. When we fear something, it is our instincts telling us something is wrong. We have a fight or flight instinct attached to fear. Believe me when i say, it is easier to fight against a threat before it is powerful than to flee it once it is.

fear is only wrong when it debilitates you to the point you can take no action. It is a powerful tool when it motivates us to take control of our own futures rather than have one handed to us by the powers that be.

EXACTLY

and of course, azosx misses Ed's brilliant point completely

 

[azosx]

Originally posted by jeb1138


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. There is absolutely no correlation between Palladium and "the control Apple has on it's hardware," except the word "control."

Apple tries to compete by offering a simple, controlled environment. Microsoft simply tries to control the environment so that it doesn't have to compete.

About those 'idiots,' since I appear to be one, that write about Palladium's potential. Firstly, please don't result to personal insult as a way of presenting your opinions. This gets you nothing except disrespect. Secondly, any time somebody tells me 'not to worry' about something because it's 'so far away' (it is not vaporware, by the way -- read those articles and you will find that parts of Palladium have already been deployed in various places) I get suspicious.

Microsoft didn't get the power to be a monopoly in a day, and if people had worried about what could result from their illegal activities whilst they were practicing them we would not be in the quandry that we are in today, when even numerous states and the Federal government together can't break up Microsoft, after finding them guilty of monopolistic practices, for fear of the negative consequences for the American economy.

About MS Product activation: if you haven't heard about people having problems after installing new hardware, you must know very different people than I do. I know several people whose fanatical Microsoft defense has been broken solely because of the wealth of problems and inconveniences that it has created for so many of them. Why hasn't there been a revolt? Microsoft doesn't really have to listen to them to remain dominant.

As for our 'illegal' activities -- we are not 'guilty' of ripping MP3's if we own the CD's. MS, the RIAA, the MPAA and others propose to protect their profits by exterminating (or making extremely difficult) our 'less-important choices.' And any copy-protection scheme of the sort that these people propose does and will limit, constrict and frustrate the legitimate user.

Some people will make wrong choices and the guilty should be punished. However, I do not believe that the entire society should be subjugated to overarching and interfering control of the minute details (e.g., listening to music) of their everyday lives by the government. That would be communism.

And pertaining to all these things in general, the solution is not as simple as saying "if people don't want it they won't buy it." Microsoft, the RIAA and the MPAA don't want to leave it up to the free market. They try to use legislation and monopolistic powers to ensure their own 'domestic tranquility.'

And as to "If it wasn't MS controling the way you live, it would be someone else, possibly Apple" -- I don't know where you come from or what your country believes, but in America we believe that one is innocent until proven guilty, and such 'guesstimate' slander holds no water for educated minds.

You're right, there is no correlation between Palladium and Apple because Palladium does not even exist.

If Apple controlled 95% of the market, then what they are currently doing could and would be construed as controlling the environment so that they didn't have to compete as well. It's all relative.

As for idiots, you're not one of them. At least I don't think so. You don't write a column for a major online publication do you? I mean no offense but these people should know better. They write FUD about MS because it sells. Look at yourself, you're completely sold on it and Palladium doesn't even exist.

If you would follow Microsoft's history from day one, you'd see it was pretty much luck that got them into the market and allowed them to become a monopoly rather than the likes of IBM or Apple. Yes, once they got the share needed they flexed their muscle and acted illegally but no different than anybody else would have or has in the past. Unlike most monopolies in the past, their run just lasted too long.

Product Activation was what Palladium is today . Unsubstantiated FUD that never amounted to anything. Any issues that have arose from PA have been very few and far between. We run XP boxes, we service them regularly. Nothing has stopped working as a result of upgrading or swapping out hardware.

The RIAA and MPAA have every right to protect themselves by any legal means possible. Yes, they are rich and powerful and their lost revenue due to the illegal downloading of mp3's and movies is likely over exaggerated but still, would you be willing to give a small percent of your pay check every month to anybody who feels like they are entitled to it?

Unfortunately, when one or just a few people mess up, many usually have to suffer the consequences. This is enforced in school from when you're just a child all the way up into the work place. Why should it be any different in the consumer market place? Until you can come up with a better way for the RIAA and Microsoft to combat piracy, what right do you have to tell me that they are doing something wrong? What you are suggesting is total anarchy by allowing the end user free reign to do what they please.

Suggesting Apple or someone else would take Microsoft's place if they were to fall has nothing to do with being innocent until proven guilty. What is proven however through the course of history is that this is how Captitalism works. It's not guesstimated slander and if you can't accept the truth, maybe you should just close your eyes and pretend you are living somewhere else. It hardly takes an educated mind to discuss the merits of something that they have never seen, know nothing about other than what they've read and that doesn't even exist.

You're asking for control yourself. Just a different type of control. You want to live in a world where nobody has an advantage over one another and everybody produces a good to benefit the common man without seeking any form of retribution. What you're suggesting already exists. It's called Communism.

 

[azosx]

Originally posted by RyanLang



EXACTLY

and of course, azosx misses Ed's brilliant point completely

No, I understand Ed completely and the rants of every other anti-MS/big business user. MS has just never controlled me, I've always had an option. Whether I currently exercise my options on all fronts is a different story.

As of today, July 16, 2002, Microsoft has never controlled anything I've done, or prohibited me from doing anything I desire. What can I say? maybe I'm just really fortunate but I don't feel threatened by a company who will sooner than later be handed the punishment they deserve.

MS had as much control over OS 9 and X as it does Windows. For the first time years Apple has spoken against Microsoft directly and some how you translate this into liberation. That's great but remember, you're only here today because Microsoft took an interest in the rotten Apple business. Surely for personal gain but nevertheless, they were your salvation.

 

[lonny]

Poor azosx:

If you would follow Microsoft's history from day one, you'd see it was pretty much luck that got them into the market and allowed them to become a monopoly rather than the likes of IBM or Apple. Yes, once they got the share needed they flexed their muscle and acted illegally but no different than anybody else would have or has in the past. Unlike most monopolies in the past, their run just lasted too long.

Your idea of capitalism is F****D UP! Capitalism does not equal "acting illegaly" in my world.

 

[azosx]

Originally posted by lonny
Poor azosx:




Your idea of capitalism is F****D UP! Capitalism does not equal "acting illegaly" in my world.

The word Capitalism does not even appear in that paragraph thus having no bearing on "acting illegally" through monopolistic means or not, nor does it have anything to do with the thought that paragraph was attempting to invoke in the first place.

It would seem your world is devoted to twisting the words and ideas of others which to me is rather F****D UP in itself and certainly counter productive.

 

[Matrix Agent]

azosx, I was under the impression that the next version of windows would be run on some kind of HFS derivitive. Am I just making up things in my head, or is this true?

 

[lonny]

It would seem your world is devoted to twisting the words and ideas of others which to me is rather F****D UP in itself and certainly counter productive.

Personal attacks don't help to prove your point.

BTW, if you don't remember your words and really need me to quote them..

What is proven however through the course of history is that this is how Captitalism works.

 

[Boeing777]

For those who never saw XP running, let me tell you this. You haven't missed much quite frankly. - It's an ugly GUI OS unless you switch back to the classic 2K interface and there's nothing revolutionary to be honest.
XP is just another every 6 months "faith upgrade" MS has gone into since day one. - I'm not to worry too much about what they say cause what they release is crap most of the time.

Cheers

(macless but not for too long as I'm getting a Tibook next week )

 

[sjb2016]

The RIAA and MPAA have every right to protect themselves by any legal means possible. Yes, they are rich and powerful and their lost revenue due to the illegal downloading of mp3's and movies is likely over exaggerated but still, would you be willing to give a small percent of your pay check every month to anybody who feels like they are entitled to it?

Once, when I was gainfully employed, I did give a rather large part of my pay check to many people that felt they were entitled to it: the government and all the special interests they try to support using my money. Well, they aren't taking any money from me now, I haven't a job, although I'm going to Japan to teach English. I'll miss you guys (and there must be some ladies here too, right?) Oh, one more thing, Microsoft must die!!!

 

[googolplex]

The potential for Palladium to be bad is frightening. Are we not allowed to anticipate what might happen if we give Microsoft this kind of power over our lives and actions. Wake up. Microsoft isn't just going to change their ways. Why would they create a system that would allow them to control everything on your computer all the way down to the chips so you don't use 'unlicensed' software or copy MP3s (even if they are your own)? Is it because they are genuinely interested in your well being or is it because they want to get rich and control things.

Thats an easy question to answer.

If we don't worry about it before it arrives it is too late. Things like this have to be stopped before they are implemented. Once Microsoft gets all the brainless suckers into its trap there is no turning back. Thats why we worry now.

I could also point out a few key flaws in the idea behind Palladium as well and how it wouldn't work. DO you want me to explain?

 

[fryke]

1.) Microsoft stops the Macintosh Business Unit. The official reason? Too much money wasted for a small market served.

Analysts and Press alike will say that Apple is now doomed to live a life in a very small niche: Video & Graphics. They will say that there were others that tried to survive that way and failed miserably, for example Atari ST and Amiga.

2.) Apple will do everything to turn AppleWorks into a real Office competitor. Other solutions to replace MS Office will be found, in fact Apple will hire good people to finally make OpenOffice.org a viable solution and a first class citizen under Mac OS X.

With the Apple shares still falling into a bottomless pit, few people (among press and analysts) believe in a new turnaround. Even a Steve Jobs can't do magic.

3.) Apple will have to go to extremes. The last thing the board of directors wants is to see Apple in the hands of another big company - only to die for good. So the decision is made to turn Apple into a software company, too. Mac OS X on Intel will be released. Many employees from the hardware department will have to leave Apple. The plan is to cooperate with the big one: Sony.

This will actually be called 'finally a plan' by press and analysts. And other partners will pop up, for example AMD and Dell.

 

[~~NeYo~~]

hmmm...

Turned into quite some Debate, this!

I Do find that alot of you guys have obvious biases towards apple, and do exagerrate your opinions regarding M$. When you make the point over power of the user, i don't think this is so!

I see their (m$'s) point entirely, in that the way IE, Messenger, Explorer, Outlook intergrate. XP Works VERY well in that respect! Applications intergrate VERY Well with one another, and it does Bring the OS together as a whole. From this, i find that it makes the OS seemless, more as "one".

I Agree that Certain Apps Could be improved to Make this "seemless" approach more viable, But in IE, they Do have the most Supported Web Browser, so Making it Uninstallable and Heavily Tied into the OS is a Bonus in my eyes.

For those who haven't tried XP, There are some features of it which may be subtle, But appear more obvious to those who knew Windows 2000 "quite well". Intergration Between apps was One of these.

NeYo

 

[azosx]

Originally posted by lonny


Personal attacks don't help to prove your point.

BTW, if you don't remember your words and really need me to quote them..

Once again let me help you because you're obviously having a hard time.

Here is the complete paragraph about Capitalism, not just one sentence taken out of context.

" Suggesting Apple or someone else would take Microsoft's place if they were to fall has nothing to do with being innocent until proven guilty. What is proven however through the course of history is that this is how Captitalism works. It's not guesstimated slander and if you can't accept the truth, maybe you should just close your eyes and pretend you are living somewhere else. It hardly takes an educated mind to discuss the merits of something that they have never seen, know nothing about other than what they've read and that doesn't even exist. "

As you can see, it makes no mention of illegal activities or monopolistic practices.

You're really reaching to prove some point you thought you had that never really existed.

I've made no personal attacks against you nor am I trying to prove some point. I am just trying to correct you in the error of your ways.

I'm sure you'll refute this now by posting what I said about you twisting words as "F****D UP!" Well, your misinterpretation of how my view of Captitalism worked and how you said it was "F****D UP!" could be misconstrued just the same as well so don't bother.

 

[azosx]

Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~
hmmm...

Turned into quite some Debate, this!

I Do find that alot of you guys have obvious biases towards apple, and do exagerrate your opinions regarding M$. When you make the point over power of the user, i don't think this is so!

I see their (m$'s) point entirely, in that the way IE, Messenger, Explorer, Outlook intergrate. XP Works VERY well in that respect! Applications intergrate VERY Well with one another, and it does Bring the OS together as a whole. From this, i find that it makes the OS seemless, more as "one".

I Agree that Certain Apps Could be improved to Make this "seemless" approach more viable, But in IE, they Do have the most Supported Web Browser, so Making it Uninstallable and Heavily Tied into the OS is a Bonus in my eyes.

For those who haven't tried XP, There are some features of it which may be subtle, But appear more obvious to those who knew Windows 2000 "quite well". Intergration Between apps was One of these.

NeYo

Yes, their bias is what fuels this debate. They would never be Supreme Court Judges, that's for sure.

They think I'm some pro-MS zealot but that's not the case. I went 5 years without supporting anything MS or big business for the fears these people hold today about MS.

It's funny how they know so much more, or at least think they do about an OS they don't run and technology that doesn't exist. I liken it to religious zealots that spend their life trying to learn and refute other religions instead of focusing on what's truly important, their own.

So much time wasted bickering over MS and fearing the future they "seek" to impose on us but I bet not one of these users has ever attempted to do something about it other than bitch. Write a letter to your Congressman, that's the best place to start. Actions speak louder than words.

It just gets silly after awhile.

 

[azosx]

Originally posted by fryke
1.) Microsoft stops the Macintosh Business Unit. The official reason? Too much money wasted for a small market served.

Analysts and Press alike will say that Apple is now doomed to live a life in a very small niche: Video & Graphics. They will say that there were others that tried to survive that way and failed miserably, for example Atari ST and Amiga.

2.) Apple will do everything to turn AppleWorks into a real Office competitor. Other solutions to replace MS Office will be found, in fact Apple will hire good people to finally make OpenOffice.org a viable solution and a first class citizen under Mac OS X.

With the Apple shares still falling into a bottomless pit, few people (among press and analysts) believe in a new turnaround. Even a Steve Jobs can't do magic.

3.) Apple will have to go to extremes. The last thing the board of directors wants is to see Apple in the hands of another big company - only to die for good. So the decision is made to turn Apple into a software company, too. Mac OS X on Intel will be released. Many employees from the hardware department will have to leave Apple. The plan is to cooperate with the big one: Sony.

This will actually be called 'finally a plan' by press and analysts. And other partners will pop up, for example AMD and Dell.

Your third senario was almost a reality. Back in '97 when Apple's boat was about to sink, Rhapsody, which later evolved into OS X was released on Intel. OS X was originally intended to be released on Intel with classic environment and all.

I think Apple was only trying to potition themselves in the market in case the worst case senario came true.

If Apple announces OS X for Intel anytime in the future, you can guarantee the end is near.

 

[~~NeYo~~]

Originally posted by azosx


Yes, their bias is what fuels this debate. They would never be Supreme Court Judges, that's for sure.

They think I'm some pro-MS zealot but that's not the case. I went 5 years without supporting anything MS or big business for the fears these people hold today about MS.

It's funny how they know so much more, or at least think they do about an OS they don't run and technology that doesn't exist. I liken it to religious zealots that spend their life trying to learn and refute other religions instead of focusing on what's truly important, their own.

So much time wasted bickering over MS and fearing the future they "seek" to impose on us but I bet not one of these users has ever attempted to do something about it other than bitch. Write a letter to your Congressman, that's the best place to start. Actions speak louder than words.

It just gets silly after awhile.

LOL! But Az, Our jobs here now are now clear! To Make these Debates more Open!

NEYo