ouchie...

Originally posted by BuddahBobb

...generally most pc probs come from the giant manufacturers such as sony, dell, compaq etc, every pc related problem i have solved has been on these type of machines, not on ones that are built by someone trust worthy ;) so in my opinion i think its a little harsh to judge all of pc-dom on all the crappy cheaply built pcs being used by techno phobes out there...
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..so what ur sayin Buddah is that pcs that are built by trust worthy ppl have very few problems? well.. i dont think soooo.... ive used such computers and theyve all had the same crappy problems thanx to WINDOWS :) of course that also depends on what someone does with his computer. if all you is play solitaire than i guess u wont have that many problems.
my point is that either way they have many problems .. especially the ones from giant companies as u said earlier.

What makes Apple even more superior to PCs is that it sells ready made machines which work perfectly coordinated!!! Compaq, Dell or any other giant company are INCAPABLE of accomplishing such a thing, and its a shame that they make so much money out of it:).
im sure uve opened up a pc box and an apple box; the ones like a jungle and the other one is looks as neat and tidy as my room. i guess any trust worthy guy would love working with an apple machine than a pc because it just makes everyones life easier :) !!!
 
Part of my post tells you why I don't really care about benchmarks. The 10 or 12 hours a day I spend working on my projects, I don't have the time to look at benchmarks and think about whether or not a fast PC would improve my workflow. I tend to evaluate properly, buy the machine that fits my needs and then work on it.

For me, it really doesn't matter whether I can't deliver a project on time because I went nuts with Windows at 500 MHz or 3 GHz.

What matters is that I can deliver the project on time.

What matters is that I feel proud about my work.

What matters is that I have fun doing my work.

I see a strange tendency on boards like this. The tendency is that people who will neither buy a 2'999$ Macintosh computer nor a 2'699$ PC whine about benchmarks of such machines. They want everything and everything for free.

There's always room for improvement. And I sure as hell would be glad if Apple could release a 4 GHz PowerMac at MWSF along with a 3.5 GHz PowerBook. But it doesn't really matter to me, as I'm going to buy my next computer between March & August 2003, depending on my liquidity.

And I think I already know what that machine will be like. I guess it'll be a PowerBook G4 Titanium. I don't know the exact features, but the chain of reason will go something like this:

I have a TiBook 500 today. I can do my work on that machine still faster than on any PC I could buy. But it's a bit old and I'd like to have better battery life as well as a better resolution screen. And maybe a faster harddrive. Oh, I see, there are new TiBooks now. They run at 1.x GHz and the top model at 1.X GHz. Guess they'll both top mine at 500 MHz. I'm a bit low on money, so this time I'll choose the lower-end one. Ah, no, they've cut prices since I bought my TiBook 500. I _can_ buy the highend one again. I'll do that. The Ti has never let me down, although I was sad I couldn't buy the 800 MHz version at the time it was released. (You may see here that the PC was left out of the chain at the very beginning for obvious reasons.)
 
OK... This is getting nowhere but I have to say this:
PCs DO suck!

Why? Because:
-No matter how fast they are after some time (6 months at the most) they start to act strange (yes, including the Windows XP)... and yes they need doctoring (checking/fixing disks, defrag, check/fix registry, etc.)
-Multitasking on a PC? A PC running Windows (any version)? You joking right? You cannot be sure that you job will be completed doing the following stuff at the same time: Downloading stuff, browsing the internet, listening to the music, playing a video clip, watching a DVD, burning a CD, encoding a DVD, have other apps doing their things in the background... More often that the PC powers users would like or admit for that matter, the PC will freeze, crash, damage the CD/DVD or simply chose not to obey at what its user wants to do!
-Windows included apps are useless compared to Jaguar's apps
-Windows network tools are plain dumb! Only on Pro versions they are somewhat worthy compared to Jaguar's
-Basic Windows functions like browsing your computer, copying/moving files, etc. are dumb! Since when must a user open a window JUST to see what disks, etc. his/her system has?
-Multiprocessor support in Windows? Yes ONLY if a user buys the Pro versions!!!
-Managing multiple apps in windows? Did you ever tried to teach anyone that all those "buttons" on the taskbar ARE NOT active apps but are TSR applications, quick launch items AND the apps that are currently open?
-Explorer.exe: This name by itself gives me the creeps! How many times a Windows user faces a message in a month telling him/her that explorer.exe caused an illegal thing... Please someone call the police!
-Install/Deinstall apps in Windows? Only if you have a degree in puzzle solving! I'm sure that I am not the only one that uninstalled an app in windows only to find out that my app didn't completely deinstalled!!!
-Windows stability compared to Jaguar's? This one ALWAYS makes me laugh! Yes you can compare the two only if all you do is run 1-2 apps a day...
-Windows appearance: This one is REALLY funny! Because M$ cannot produce a nice UI they copy WindowsBlinds skin technology just to create the... HumanTasteBlinds! While one can say that Jaguar stands in his/her way of changing schemes at least he/she CAN'T deny that Aqua is ultra-cool!
-Mac is the best just because it has the Columns view (HA HA HA)
-Mac is the best simply because it has a fair dose of cool factor across the line of mac-related products while PCs (including those Dull ones) can look the Mac but will never touch it: Hey, what can I say? When I want something, be it women, cars, computers, ANYTHING, I want the coolest, better looking, easiest to get along, ones and not just the fastest ones! I don't know what to say to a PC user when he/she asks me: How come and Macs are so cool? Hey, maybe its because that after all, Apple is doing something right! (HE HE)

Last (for now) but not least: Don't forget this... If PCs are THAT good, how come Macs are still around? Come on! The answer is too easy: Macs are for the Elite computer users while PCs are just for the mainstream!

What else one can say? We are on mac related forum and we have PC users annoying us... ALL THE TIME!!! Could it be because we have something to like in our computers and they don't? I think that's the naked truth and they simply CANNOT handle it :) :p :D :p :) ;)
 
Problem is, there are a LOT of iWhiners around here lately. I think the moment Apple has more than 5% market share, I will have to be only on Mac forums that have a "whine and be banned for life" strategy.

Maybe we should become a bit more elitary again. I know, flamewars are part of the fun of a forum, and I don't mind taking off the gloves sometimes on a board, too. But I really do hate the two months before a new version of Mac OS X is released (you know, when suddenly there are a hundred people thinking that it will be a free upgrade or at least 69$ or something like that)...

Well, if you too think there should be a room for more educated discussions about the same things (Mac OS X, Chimera ;), OmniWeb :) and - of course - Macs in General) or if you know one, drop me a line via a private message on here.
 
Man, you mention one thing that the PC world may have over Macs and rather than being able to discuss it rationally, everyone jumps in like it's the end of the world. It's like telling a devoted Christian there's no God.
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which is one of those things i have long since developed the good sense not to do. ;)

you know what i like about Hulk - he is a mac fanatic. i don't tend to think of myself that way, i'm more of a devotee. but i am proud that apple has users like Hulk. i know he gets a bit exagerated at times, but at least he's excited about using a mac. and at the same time, i don't think he wants windows and pc's to disappear - he makes his living fixing them. from his point of view, if windows and pc's were to magically disappear, he would be like the maytag repairman commercials. :p

but in his exageration, he tends to get people who have invested in pc's to be a bit defensive. but it's just his perception of the way things work. notice that he doesn't ever say that people who like pc's suck. any assumption of that is purely an association in the reader's mind.

but to be fair, i must admit to a few things i think he misrepresents in his enthusiasism.

1st - mac apps can screw up too. we are always at the mercy of the developers. they don't always take the time to get it right. i'm not sure if this a matter of them putting more attention into windows' apps because of the larger market share or their not understanding the mac platforma s well or what.

2nd - i've never considered macs as being for the elite. quite the opposite. i've always considered them to be the computers for everybody else. more for people who want to do something else with theirlives than fsck around with their computers all the time. in using a mac, we tend to get an elitist attitude because we feel we were smart enough to pay for the luxury of the experience. and we wonder why the average joe on the street isn't smart enough (?) to check it out and see this for themselves.
 
he he :D

hey i wasn't going to quote myself, but since you have....(see, i knew you would read that MacLuv ;) )

i probably should be saying "computer idiots" because most mac users i have known personally exhibit above average intelligence in some other area(s) of their lives. one reason they buy a mac is so they don't have to spend 2 weeks learning to use it and another 2 weeks getting it to work how they want it to. I still believe that the mac is the easiest new user experience available.

which brings me back to another of your points MacLuv - that os x loses a few brownie points for user friendlyness. i have to agree with you. :)eek: ) for me the gains have been worth it. and i think most of these complications that have been added into os x only affect people who are power users and geeks. My gf only started using computers at all in the last 5 years. her major experience has been with pc's at work yet we both agreed that a mac would make more sense for her at home due to my expertise in it. but frankly, she rarely relies upon my expertise. after her first 2 days on her mac with os 9, she was pretty comfortable doing what she wanted. within 2 months i switched her boot to os x and had to spend a little time teaching her the dock and a few other differences. i've probably spent 2-3 hrs teaching her everything she needs to do what she wants to up to this point. and another hour or 2 just doing some things that it wasn't worth making her try to remember. that's been in the year and a half since she got her mac. so unless you are trying to do some more complicated tasks than the average computer user requires, os x is still easy to use. but when you start getting into some of the more advanced aspects, it gets a bit 'nixy for my tastes. but if that is what it takes to give me the overall experience then, i'm willing to live with this without cussing too loudly.:cool:
 
OK... This is getting nowhere but I have to say this:
PCs DO suck!

Why? Because:
-No matter how fast they are after some time (6 months at the most) they start to act strange (yes, including the Windows XP)... and yes they need doctoring (checking/fixing disks, defrag, check/fix registry, etc.)


funny my pc has been running for about 3 years now, from windows 98, ME, 2000 and XP Pro, i have yet to run into my computer just destroying itself after 6 months, yes i do doctor, i take care of my computers, i take care of my mac in the same way, and i take care of the labfull of macs as well in the same way, its called preventive maintanence

-Multitasking on a PC? A PC running Windows (any version)? You joking right? You cannot be sure that you job will be completed doing the following stuff at the same time: Downloading stuff, browsing the internet, listening to the music, playing a video clip, watching a DVD, burning a CD, encoding a DVD, have other apps doing their things in the background... More often that the PC powers users would like or admit for that matter, the PC will freeze, crash, damage the CD/DVD or simply chose not to obey at what its user wants to do!

im surprised you can do all that on a mac, i cant do all that on my mighty quicksilver without anything missing a beat, and i cant do that on my pc either, oh and im surprised YOU can watch a video clip, play music and watch a dvd all at the same time while you are working dling files and browsing the internet, thats pretty amazing in itself

lets get real, how about doing thins while burning a cd? well in my experience, osx splits up program priority and when you are burning something, the priority is usually the highest for it, thus no crap burns (or few, cause i have had a few) but everything else is rather slow, it works much the same way in windows xp

-Windows included apps are useless compared to Jaguar's apps

i think the newest version of windows media player is pretty useful, it plays my music and movies, has play lists for music, has net radio etc, i tunes has better visualizations, and playlist management, quicktime is a very good simple tool as well, but over all i do agree that apple includes some pretty good apps with its system, most of which you can find a windows equal IMO

oh and they definately arent useless, otherwise they wouldnt be there

-Windows network tools are plain dumb! Only on Pro versions they are somewhat worthy compared to Jaguar's

im not super up to date on networking stuff, but i find that putting two pcs on the same network is easier than doing stuff between two macs on the same network, and being able to control shares etc is much easier in windows, i dont know, do you like setting up samba? or for that matter using the terminal to either?

but over all i think they are fairly equal in that sense, its a big improvement from apple over the classic os's of past

-Basic Windows functions like browsing your computer, copying/moving files, etc. are dumb! Since when must a user open a window JUST to see what disks, etc. his/her system has?

just dumb? i have no valid argument for that ;)

so mac users dont have to open windows or anything to see their files and disks? this is new to me

if you are talking about spring loaded folders though, you have a point, thats a feature i would like to see on windows, and guess what i got it via a 3rd party app so im fine

-Multiprocessor support in Windows? Yes ONLY if a user buys the Pro versions!!!

dont know much about this, but that seems like that would be false, but i dont know, can you point me to this fact? thanks :)

-Managing multiple apps in windows? Did you ever tried to teach anyone that all those "buttons" on the taskbar ARE NOT active apps but are TSR applications, quick launch items AND the apps that are currently open?

windesk.jpg


-Explorer.exe: This name by itself gives me the creeps! How many times a Windows user faces a message in a month telling him/her that explorer.exe caused an illegal thing... Please someone call the police!

i havent seen the illegal operation since the msdos kernal days

compare it to the classic mac bomb

-Install/Deinstall apps in Windows? Only if you have a degree in puzzle solving! I'm sure that I am not the only one that uninstalled an app in windows only to find out that my app didn't completely deinstalled!!!

control panel > add/remove programs

it will remove everything except for some preference files and the what not

in mac world, there is generally no uninstall program, and where there is, the preference files are usually still around within the system

-Windows stability compared to Jaguar's? This one ALWAYS makes me laugh! Yes you can compare the two only if all you do is run 1-2 apps a day...

well then laugh away, my pc runs just as smoothly and reliably as my mac, i guess my mac must have a problem ;)

-Windows appearance: This one is REALLY funny! Because M$ cannot produce a nice UI they copy WindowsBlinds skin technology just to create the... HumanTasteBlinds! While one can say that Jaguar stands in his/her way of changing schemes at least he/she CAN'T deny that Aqua is ultra-cool!

i enjoy the silver luna theme, it looks good, while not being too gaudy with eye candy

i wish osx allowed specific control over effects, so i use duality to use a nonstripped version of aqua

aqua to me is too much eye candy

and this argument is soley based on opinions, so you are right with this one ;)

-Mac is the best just because it has the Columns view (HA HA HA)

true, columns view is useful, although it doesnt provide many options for viewing it, i.e. being able to have multiple colums instead of just name in the columns view etc

this is another option i wish windows had, but i prefer using menus to navigate quickly to a file anyways, which again is an opinion/preference

best for having column view? that seems like an over statement to me... so if windows implemented this tommorow would they be the best as well? ;)

-Mac is the best simply because it has a fair dose of cool factor across the line of mac-related products while PCs (including those Dull ones) can look the Mac but will never touch it: Hey, what can I say? When I want something, be it women, cars, computers, ANYTHING, I want the coolest, better looking, easiest to get along, ones and not just the fastest ones! I don't know what to say to a PC user when he/she asks me: How come and Macs are so cool? Hey, maybe its because that after all, Apple is doing something right! (HE HE)

this is true, mac products are beautiful for the most part, but you get what you pay for, if you pay 2000 for a computer it should look good and perform well, where as if you pay 1000 for a pc it probably wont look that great

ever seen some of the nifty pc cases out there? there are some absolutely beautiful ones, im not talking about the pc companies cases either im talking about the ones you buy at a store


Last (for now) but not least: Don't forget this... If PCs are THAT good, how come Macs are still around? Come on! The answer is too easy: Macs are for the Elite computer users while PCs are just for the mainstream!

its called market niche and a little help from other people.

What else one can say? We are on mac related forum and we have PC users annoying us... ALL THE TIME!!! Could it be because we have something to like in our computers and they don't? I think that's the naked truth and they simply CANNOT handle it :) :p :D :p :) ;)

yes there are the ocassional trolls, but do you need to bring yourself to their level with these types of posts? how about educate yourself sometime, it will make us all look better as a whole ;)
 
oh yea, one other misconception that i found in Hulk's post -

-No matter how fast they are after some time (6 months at the most) they start to act strange (yes, including the Windows XP)... and yes they need doctoring (checking/fixing disks, defrag, check/fix registry, etc.)
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one of my personal pet peeves is mac users who believe that they are somehow exempt from doing this kind of regular maintainence. especially the ones who come from linux and want to try and convince everybody that unix never needs this kind of thing - all the while ignoring the fact that the file system and corresponding volume structures are still mac based.

any mac that is used regularly by a power user will need to have these things done on a regular basis in order to keep from slowing down and even to help prevent early hardware destruction. don't kid yourself that this stuff is not important on a mac or that fsck can fix every problem. fsck is beginners stuff compared to some of the things that will go wrong thru corruption and fragmentation.

now the upside is that we have much better tools for performing thses tasks than windows users do. Diskwarrior/Plus optimizer and Techtool pro are still the best. maybe Hulk's real point is that windows users tend to swear by norton which tends to cause more problems than it cures.
 
Maybe I'm too MUCH a power user for you, Ed, but I usually just reinstall Mac OS X after about three months. I have a very clean backup system. It takes me less than an hour to have everything back in place after reformatting the internal harddrive.

Must say: I don't trust those disk tools. Really. Too many times I've heard about users complaining that this or that tool destroyed all of their work. And do companies that sell you disk tools pay the intellectual property you lose if something goes wrong? I don't think so. I'm sure their license agreements state something about it.

I rather use common sense. Backups, backups, backups. It's the only thing that helps.

Btw... At the moment I'm a bit irritated that Apple's Disk Tool _always_ finds permissions to repair. and the command line utility 'diskutil' has quite a strange message when you 'sudo diskutil repairPermissions /':

Code: 
The privileges have been partially verified or repaired on the selected volume.

That's not _very_ helpful, Apple. :)
 
for some reason i've always found

"the volume appears to be ok"

funny :) like they dont want to commit or something hehe
 
Maybe I'm too MUCH a power user for you, Ed, but I usually just reinstall Mac OS X after about three months. I have a very clean backup system.
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he he

that's my other pet peeve - people whose first solution to solving a problem is to reformat. you must have a relatively small number of apps and files to have to back up. on the other hand, myself and others i have talked with don't have enough room to just dump every thing somewhere and then throw it back on. now that i have my 2nd external, i could dump the internal to it and reformat it if i wanted to, but thre's a good chance that some of my problems might be in files and apps, etc so i'm just putting the problem back that way. but i keep system folders on all 3 drives and so all need regular maintainence at somepoint or another. reformatting just isn't a realistic option for many people. but if tht works for you fryke, then by all means go for it. however i've also seen you help people enough to know that you are aware of a lot of answers to problems and how to fix them without reformatting so we know i'm not really talking to you here. (i'll also admit that i don't want to spend an hour or more at my computer babysitting reinstalling, transferring files & folders, etc.. i just run a repair or defragmentation app when i go to bed and click ok when i wake up. then reboot while i go back and make my first cup of coffee. :D )

oh, and repairing is not a replacement for backing up important and irreplaceable files. those i can fit on a cd or 2. i can always rerip my cd's and gather up all the shareware i collect to experiment with. but frankly, both diskwarrior/plus optimizer and techtool pro are 99% safe from data loss should an interuption occur. unlike norton which is 99% sure to dump your drive in the process.

should we rename this thread "as the thread turns" :p
 
...answer to the stuff that MacLuv,
BuddahBobb, Ed posted here... BUT: I will not!

I will just say this: You guys can whine AS MUCH AS you like about the Mac platform but the truth is that its quality and performance are far above ANY PC out there running Windows (any version)...

And as for MacLuv, BuddahBobb, Itanium and other PC lovers around here... Hey, guys keep up the good work! To other Mac users of this forum you may be able to tell them how much you enjoy working/playing with your PCs but to me, forget about it... I know the truth: In the end you WANT and PREFER Macs more than PCs :D

You know people that have 2-4 (or even more) years old Macs and still be able to like them and you envy them... You envy in general people like Fryke, Ed, me who seem to enjoy our Macs MORE than you will EVER be able to enjoy your PCs...

Last, Ed I thought that you more than any other member of this forum that you would be able to understand the tone of my previous post: Maybe a second or third reading? Try to read it as a peek & poke script :D
 
well BuddahBobb.. u must be one lucky guy since everythin on ur pc seems to work just fine :)

im 17 years old ... im the only guy in my class who has a mac. from our conversations i have not heard ONE person who does not have a problem with his/her PC. it might be that the cd burner doesnt work, windows displays all kinds of error messages, their computer freezes all the time.. and the list goes on and on !
most of these kids dont know much about PCs, thats why they run into problems, because they themselves could cause problems when tryin to manage their files.....
WHAT I LOVE about macs is that they are SO easy to use. for example: in order to uninstall a program all u have to do is DRAG it to the trash and delete it.
its a SHAME that when a teenager tries to use a computer for the first time, all he/she gets is problems instead of making his/her life easier. t

as for multitasking. in mac os x, i DO burn cds and listen to music and surf on the internet and download programs and..and and.. all at the same time without any problems. With PCs, while im burning cds i stay AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE from the PC because from my past experience it seems like the most sensible thing to do !!!

anywayz... my point is that I ENJOY USING MY MAC, its even more interesting day after day. try sayin that to an of my PC classmates...they will start laughing because for them its a TORTURE when they have to use their PC :)
 
No, Ed, I *do* have many apps installed. But the 60G external has more space than my 40G internal drive.

I backup:

1.) My Home folder. It contains basically everything important.

2.) /Library - It contains 'Application Support', so I don't have to reinstall the apps later... and:

3.) /Applications - which, of course, contains my Apps.

Then I really _do_ a reinstall of OS X, apply all the updates (which I have on my external 60G already) and then copy 1, 2 and 3 over.

Finding and correcting errors on a harddrive (or some system prefs) can take hours or days. Such a reinstall takes - like I said - about an hour.
 
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