Racial profiling

Not just in theory, but in practice I have to reject the profiling solution completely.

My daughter flew to London on the 10th (day the plot was uncovered). She had a bit of trouble getting through the airport, but mostly because of the disruption to take-off schedules and a rainstorm at JFK. I just flew from JFK to Cairo and it took me about an extra 10 minutes to get through the formal stuff at the airport (though we went an hour earlier just in case). I can put up with an extra 10 or 20 minutes of checking. (I really don't buy that much liquid stuff at the duty free anyway.)

I would be offended if there were two separate systems - or if my salt-of-the-earth brother-in-law were singled out because his brown skin or oriental origin. I'll put up with the minor inconvenience.

The present state of war is a result of the abandonment of principles in the name of practicality. The fundamentalists are not attacking western freedom, they are protesting (wrongly) against stupid western policies that have upheld oppressive regimes while abandoning (wrongly) their moral obligations to aid and educate. So how can a further abandonment of moral requirements do anything but exacerbate the situation.
 
As I initially posted this thread, I would like to add further comment. My personal views have been modulated to an extent by very sound liberal postings from the likes of Cat, Bill Baloney and Mikuro.

The title of the thread is what security experts use. This of course is entirely inaccurate and meaningless. Perhaps a better term is cultural profiling. A lot more complex, but not based on skin colour.

I have a very serious problem with:
• Neo Nazis
• Stalinists
• The Klu Klux Klan
• The Black Panthers
• White and black youths carrying weapons into schools
• Christian, Jewish or Hindu fundamentalists
• Hutu militia groups in the 1990's
• Serbian ultra-nationalists
• Algerian/British/Pakistani/Indonesian/Egyptian terrorists
• The IRA and British intelligence (the latter being no better than their Republican counterparts)
• Bader-Meinhof
• Basque separatists
• Lombardian politicians (e.g. Berscolini)
• Osama Bin Laden, Bush and Blair etc.

What do they all have in common? Arrogance and blind belief - not skin colour.

Perhaps we have to get away from race and focus instead on negative sub-cultures.

Cultural identities, political beliefs and religious convictions are forces for both good and evil. Maybe focusing on fanatical sub-cultural groups is the way forward (i.e. through intelligence operations as Mikuro suggests), rather than racial profiling, which in essence is a blunt tool.

Having said this, I still don't have to make life and death decisions in our airports. It is easy to pontificate from the comfort of your ergonomically designed computer chair.

I guess Qion and I are just part of the 'Self Preservation Society'.
 
rhisiart....

You forgot the Swedish Sauna Liberation Organization. At Midnight.

Just jumping in here, I think we are trapped by today's events: scare tactics by the Bush/Blair crowd, true terrorists (from everywhere), The Press, Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, "North/South" economics, oil, China, four wheel drives, more Chinese, greedy businessmen, ghettos, immigration, poverty, the Euro/dollar exchange (just kidding), bad television, etc. and most of all....we must CONSUME. In a word, we get what we deserve because we are pigs. The human "race" has not been playing with a full deck for centuries and now we are running out of ice.
If I'm double checked at an airport because of my looks...tough nuts. This is the crappy situation we have ALL created and that is the way the cookie will crumble from now on. What a world. Helas!!!!!

"Goodbye to All That" by Robert Graves seems like a book to re-read.

Do I sound like a downer? Sorry.
 
reed said:
rhisiart....

You forgot the Swedish Sauna Liberation Organization. At Midnight.
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Yes, I get your point. It was bit of a pointless list. I over cooked the eggs in my attempt to reassure other contributors that I am not some right-wing WASP lunatic (actually I am White Celtic Non-Conformist Protestant).

P.S. Just how dangerous are the Swedish Sauna Liberation Organization? Are they easy to identify (i.e. to do they wear just towels around their waists?).
 
Mikuro: Keep in mind that you can also have absolutely no security at all and almost no freedom at the same time. It's not _really_ such a linear thing. Seems to me freedom is currently stripped down in the name of a _false_ feeling of security.

Besides: This thread's subject is not about freedom (unless you mean a government's freedom to be racist...).

But the question again: Should we forget _all_ of our high morales just because of "but they did show me the tongue first!"-like points? I think not. Let's live by example and _still_ improve security. You don't have to invent racist ways to screen your passengers. Just screen them and make sure that your passengers are secure. I personally wouldn't want to be on a plane with, say, a hundred passengers of which only 20 have been screened well because of how they look. Not only because of the racism-issue, but also because I don't want to sit next to the pretty white French girl with the bomb. Although at crunch time, it might be the most interesting seat.
 
fryke said:
Mikuro: Keep in mind that you can also have absolutely no security at all and almost no freedom at the same time. It's not _really_ such a linear thing. Seems to me freedom is currently stripped down in the name of a _false_ feeling of security.

Besides: This thread's subject is not about freedom (unless you mean a government's freedom to be racist...).

But the question again: Should we forget _all_ of our high morales just because of "but they did show me the tongue first!"-like points? I think not. Let's live by example and _still_ improve security. You don't have to invent racist ways to screen your passengers. Just screen them and make sure that your passengers are secure. I personally wouldn't want to be on a plane with, say, a hundred passengers of which only 20 have been screened well because of how they look. Not only because of the racism-issue, but also because I don't want to sit next to the pretty white French girl with the bomb. Although at crunch time, it might be the most interesting seat.
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Sorry Fryke, but this reads as an example of armchair philosophy.

Yesterday, a Monarch plane leaving Malaga for Liverpool was prevented from taking off because passengers complained of two suspicious behaving Pakistanis on board. The British press quickly whipped up a storm in a teacup, suggesting that the airline and passengers over-reacted and were being hysterical.

It now transpires that the two individuals were behaving suspiciously, so much so that the pilots and flight crews were sufficiently concerned to stop the flight from leaving.

What I really take umbrage to is the idea that if you accept that there is a real war taking place (whoever is at fault) that being cautious is being racist. I don’t give a flying fig whether the threat are White Nazis or Asian Islamist extremists.

Having said this, I do actually agree to a point where you are coming from because you are a decent person. It's just a matter of pragmatism (I think!).
 
"armchair philosophy" alright. I can swallow that without a problem. The problem remains: If people start to allow torture based on the "qualities of the enemy", if racist tendencies are suddenly okay because "we're under pressure now" etc., this'd mean that _any_ of our values crumbles without a problem as soon as there's pressure. So why have values at all? If you only apply them in calm days, in your armchair, to go back to that picture, then those values are armchair values and hollow themselves. And I'd like _not_ to think so.

Where did you read into that I say being cautious is racist? If anything, I'm suggesting to be even _more_ cautious, because the next attack might be carried out by people who don't fit that racial profile.
 
fryke said:
Where did you read into that I say being cautious is racist?
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No Fryke, you never suggested that. I meant it as a broad statement. Mind you, I stick with my armchair philosophy argument. But then, I also see your point of view too.

I'm so tempted to sit on the fence because your argument is essentially sound. However, I don't think the right thing to do is to hide my head in the sand. My views may be on the wrong side of the tracks, but there it is.
 
Okay. I can live with that. :)

(I kinda think this thread gave me a nice idea for a story I'm currently writing. 20 year old French blonde terrorist on the seat next to you in the plane. Sounds great. It has something. Sorry to bring that back again. I'm just mistreating my keyboard and writing quite a bit of text. Hopefully it'll be good when I'm done.)
 
rhisiart,

It was a vey good list. I would have added a few more but I just wanted to lighten-up a bit this very serious situation that we are living. I forgot Global Warming on MY list by the way (is "Global Warming" in the dictionary now?). In a word, these things are connected. Think about it for a sec.
We will be controlled, filmed, filed and spied upon.A bit like "The Prisoner." Double checks at an airport is peanuts. I'm sure my shoe size is already known by the FBI.

SSLO......

No, towels are only an option. That's the fun part. This is the only organization I would join.....if they would accept me. Which I doubt. SIGH!!!

All the best.
 
fryke said:
Okay. I can live with that. :)

(I kinda think this thread gave me a nice idea for a story I'm currently writing. 20 year old French blonde terrorist on the seat next to you in the plane. Sounds great. It has something. Sorry to bring that back again. I'm just mistreating my keyboard and writing quite a bit of text. Hopefully it'll be good when I'm done.)
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Not all that far from reality. During the IRA bombing of London in the 1980's, my Irish wife was 'racially' profiled at airports and ports. She had a particularly bad experience getting though immigration at Heathrow one year. However, she seems to have come through it all unscathed.

As your book develops, could you not introduce a dashing muscular built Welshman as a hero who saves the day?

And Reed, I'd like to join the SSLO, but 'Herslf' is worried that there may be too many beautiful, scantily dressed blonde Sewdish women in the ranks.
 
I was double checked at Kennedy (that is... coming back to my home town) because I was living in France for two years and working for UNICEF? My French girl friend went flying through without a wink. Firgure that one out. All is "in the eye of the beholder?"

rhisiart

MY wife wouldn't like it if I join the SSLO either. Hey, she gets through customs/passport control and I get nailed. For my looks? I think she owes me one.
 
It would be foolish in the extreme not to search on the characteristics known to apply to most of the suspects.

If you want to catch Osama Bin Laden, an exceptionally tall Yemeni with long beard, on dialysis, should you apprehend dumpy Japanese housewives to show lack of discrimination?

True not all Muslim terrorists look like Arabs or Pakistanis, but virtually all the terrorists so far have been. Further the moslem community has been half hearted in its condemnation of the terrorist acts.

If you read the Koran you will find out why. It is nothing like the bible or buddhist teachings or that of the bahai or many codes which place kindness and love of your fellow human beings at the heart of religious practice. Many of its precepts are violent, misogynist, intolerant and absolutist. There are calls to charity and good works but these are essentially aimed at fellow muslims.

To muslims who believe in the absolute truth of the Koran, the so called terrorist acts are quite understandable. The terrorists are doing no more nor less than what the Koran calls for. The only point of debate arises over whether the killing of the faithful to get at the infidel is justified. There is no Koranic condemnation against killing of the unfaithful, quite the reverse, there are several incitements to do exactly that.

A muslim would have to ignore several parts of the Koran to maintain a peaceful, tolerant position with infidels. To the credit of many they do do that, but if it came to choosing between adhering to their religion and killing infidels there is no choice and they have shown on many occassions in history that is the case.

The strange part is that underlying the current agressive acts is a pervasive sense of persecution fostered by hard line Islamists and propagated by an abundance of petro-dollars. This follows a similar line to the German Nazi creed that they are justified in attacking mostly innocents because they have allegedly done something to you.

Islam is a religion founded and advanced mostly by violent conquest. Their thinking goes along the lines of "We are in the right because the Koran says so, so we have done no wrong but anyone who has raised a hand back against us has attacked the Koran". So they cherry pick their history and show no mercy to their "enemies". The death penalty applies to those who renounce Islam so by recategorising sects within Islam as "unbelievers" they can turn on them as well in internecine conflict. The Iranians have committed genocide against the gentle, moral Bahai and the Sunni's and Shiites have been at each others throats since the early days of Islam because of this.

The thing that really puzzles me is how they see their believe in an all powerful Allah, who is capable of evil as well as good - unbounded by any earthly restrictions, requires that they do his dirty work for him. Every purpetrator of whatever butchery, believes they are the instrument of Allah. The faithful have extreme difficulty in resisting such beliefs because that could target them as the next victim (shows their "lack of faith"), much safer to go along with the extremely violent who are after all justified by clear statements in the Koran.

Islam is an odd mixture of primitive blood lust and some sophisticated philosophy. As such it represents fairly accurately its feuding Mid Eastern tribal origins.

Unfortunately its repression of women, customs of arranged and early marriages where the women are mainly confined and kept pregnant means they will outbreed the dominant religion, Christianity, within the next 15-20 years.

That is when our tolerant, democratic and law abiding societies will be tested to their limits. The issue will be far beyond racial profiling at that point. It will be a matter of submission to something totally alien to modern western society.
 
Scandinavian Sauna Liberation Organisation.

It was a joke in an earlier post about profiling blonde terrorists.
 
billbaloney said:
Oh my god, crazy freak alert!
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Why?

rubaiyat said:
…the Koran is nothing like the bible ...... the thing that really puzzles me is how they see their belief in an all powerful Allah, who is capable of evil as well as good ….
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The Old Testament is full of references to a vindictive God. Take the Old Testament on its literal word and one could do all manner of terrible things to people (e.g. the Crusades).

rubaiyat said:
To Muslims who believe in the absolute truth of the Koran, the so-called terrorist acts are quite understandable. The terrorists are doing no more nor less than what the Koran calls for.
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I think it all boils down to interpretation. I am not a Muslim, but I always believed the term Infidel refers to Muslims who abuse the teachings of the Koran (i.e. Osama bin Laden). There are very clear references in the Koran extolling Muslims to tolerate people of other faiths.

Likewise with Jihad. As I understand it, Jihad is not about waging Holy War against Christians, but rather a personal war within oneself between good and evil (not being greedy, being faithful to one's spouse, avoiding vices etc.).

Many Islamic clerics interpret the Koran in a way that would set a good example to most Christians. The clerics who interpret the Koran in the way you have described (and I'm not getting at you here) are the ones who have politics on their minds, not theology.
 
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