Racial profiling

rubaiyat said:
I take it you have read the Koran?
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I have a copy here in my bookshelf, and studied it in college under a Pakistani professor that I stayed friends with for years afterwards, during which time we often discussed issues of Islam and politics.

And your interpretation is that of a crazy frickin' Islamophobic freakshow, thus my "crazy freak alert".

Perhaps you'd like to talk about the concept of "people of the book", as one example of how you're completely wrong about textual Islam's treatments of non-Muslims, which itself complicates the claim of some kind of textually-based violence against the non-Muslim.

[...takes out book...]

Let's see. Surah 3, verse 69:

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an),
Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures),
And the Sabians and the Christians --
Any who believe in Allah
And the Last Day,
And work righteousness --
On them shall be no fear,
Nor shall they grieve."

Well. Certainly open to interpretation, isn't it? Next, read up on the property rights of married women in original Islamic society.

There's plenty of good and bad in the Qur'an, just as in the Bible. There is plenty of material for those who want to use the book as an excuse for violence. I wonder if we can think of examples of violent misinterpretation of the Bible. Hmm, let's think about the last two thousand years....
 
There does seem to a strong belief amongst Christian fundamentialists that Islam is inherently evil. I think they refer to some passage in in the Book of Revelations, about the emergence of an evil religion in the last days.

Perhaps the evil religion in the last days is fundamentialim per se, regardless of whether is is Jewish, Christian, Hindu or Islamic in origin.
 
Sura IX 29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last day,
Nor hold that forbidden Which hath been forbidden By God and His Apostle, Nor acknowledge the Religion Of Truth (even if they are) Of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya With willing submission And Feel themselves subdued.

Sura XLVIII 29 Mohammed is God's Apostle those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.

Jihad's struggle against sin and "evil" is not separated from the physical struggle against non believers and is often quoted as such by the many Islamic authorities who support explicitly or implicitly Islamic terrorists.

The Koran is in marked contrast to the New Testament, Buddhist teachings, Bahaii teachings and many other creeds in its exhortation to violence and its rejoicing in violent victory over other faiths.

This is what leads Islamic scholars to their two faced approach to the west. Telling non-muslims what they'd like to hear and telling muslims who know the Koran the opposite.

You can understand any more moderate opinions are kept private as it is tantamount to a death sentence.

I know it is fashionable to condemn the Crusades, I won't hail them as holy, but how were they different to the Muslim conquests that preceeded them?

It is just another part of the huge hypocracy of muslims who have long memories for slights against them but dismiss as not even relevent their own bloody history. Their indignation against supposed "oppression" in the modern world stands in marked contrast to their deeds in Armenia, the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, East Timor, the Celebes, Irian Jaya, Kenya, Tanzania, Argentina, Bali, Jakarta etc. The list goes on and on. Their lack of indignation against the oppression they exact against each other truly reveals their hypocracy. A finer collection of despotic and repressive regimes would be hard to find.

Osam bin Laden and his many supporters in the Islamic world have merely adopted the circular logic and self righteously murderous oppression of the communists they fought in Afghanistan.

btw You are jumping to absurd conclusions to assume I am either a fundamentalist Christian or an extremist. Because I am neither I value my liberties and am dismayed at the absolutism of Islam and the apologetic kowtowing to it by the "politically correct".

Nothing new there, both Communists and Nazis had their fellow travellors clearing the path for them.

PS I actually started off my study of Islam as highly sympathetic but the closer my examination of all the problems that beset it, my opinion changed. My conclusion is the problems of Islam are of its own making. The notion of conquering the world and taxing the non-believers foundered when they ran out of conquests and unbelievers willing to submit as second class citizens.
 
Oh my goodness.

Here's the truth, big guy: I think it's safe to say that every regime that has conquered and ruled over wide swaths of humanity has been cruel, and has had its kindnesses. There was not one monolithic "Islamic empire" that ruled Asia and parts of Europe for centuries; in fact, there were several, each with its own power base, regional differences, and peculiarities. Some were better than others, just like the empires in China, Rome, India, Athens, the United States...you name it.

N.b., as well, that I said, "your interpretation is that of a crazy frickin' Islamophobic freakshow," and didn't make any claim about who you actually are. I have absolutely no desire to find out any more about you, tell you the truth.

I'm really, really impressed at your sweeping conclusions, your incisive contribution to religious study, and your analysis of the current geopolitical situation. As you well know, those who spend their time making grandiose claims about entire religions, races, ethnicities, or nations, especially on bulletin boards, are almost always right and helpful.

Sweet. You're definitely going to write back, which is why I promise not to read this thread any more. Bye!
 
billbaloney said:
Sweet. You're definitely going to write back, which is why I promise not to read this thread any more. Bye!
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Adios amigo.

Five Voltaire quotes:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

Well to a point, I guess.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."

Well, I think we can all agree on that one.

"If there were only one religion in England (sic) there would be danger of despotism; if there were two they would cut each other’s throats. But there are thirty, and they live in peace and happiness."

Of course that that wouldn't have gone down too well with Ulster politician Enoch 'Rivers of Blood' Powell. Despite the fact that he was a bigoted racist fecker, his predictions seem to have come to true.

(And for fryke): "Judge of a man by his questions, rather than by his answers.":)

(And for rhisiart):"A witty saying proves nothing.":(
 
rhisiart....

A metaphor.
Red States.Terrible, stupid and dangerous thinking. US/Right Wing/Religious/ignoranant policy at present. Bush & co what. I'v seen it with my own objective eyes. Just in case there was a doubt my spies are out there as well confirming this.

Nothing new under the sun.

Rangoon, over and out.
 
Technically, AFAIK, the unbelievers the Q'ran talks about are the primitive politheistic religions and sects spread throughout the middle-east at the time. Jews and Christians are referred to as People of The Book. All three great monotheistic traditions share their origin in Abraham/Ivrahim and got along fairly well with each other in the beginning. Jesus is even acknowledged as an important prophet by Islam. However, he is not considered the saviour and son of god. Just like the Jews, Muslims are still waiting. Doesn't that make them more open-minded on the average than those who profess already to know the ultimate truths?
 
Cat said:
Technically, AFAIK, the unbelievers the Q'ran talks about are the primitive politheistic religions and sects spread throughout the middle-east at the time. Jews and Christians are referred to as People of The Book. All three great monotheistic traditions share their origin in Abraham/Ivrahim and got along fairly well with each other in the beginning. Jesus is even acknowledged as an important prophet by Islam. However, he is not considered the saviour and son of god. Just like the Jews, Muslims are still waiting. Doesn't that make them more open-minded on the average than those who profess already to know the ultimate truths?
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Cat, I honestly don't know.

reed said:
rhisiart....

A metaphor.
Red States.Terrible, stupid and dangerous thinking. US/Right Wing/Religious/ignoranant policy at present. Bush & co what. I'v seen it with my own objective eyes. Just in case there was a doubt my spies are out there as well confirming this.

Nothing new under the sun.

Rangoon, over and out.
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Agreed * STOP * Very dangerous * STOP * In much peril * STOP * Complete nutters * STOP * Mandalay, over and out * STOP
 
Cat said:
Technically, AFAIK, the unbelievers the Q'ran talks about are the primitive politheistic religions and sects spread throughout the middle-east at the time.
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Not at all as you can see by my references.

Jews and Christians are referred to as People of The Book. All three great monotheistic traditions share their origin in Abraham/Ivrahim and got along fairly well with each other in the beginning.
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Only as subjugate peoples who had to pay the Jizya, a tax on the non-believers. It was a practicality as the Muslims were initially the minority. The choice was death, slavery or conversion. Once converted, even under threat of death, changing your faith is apostasy and punishable by death. By declaring any deviation from Islam apostasy each of the sects has been able to kill the others without retribution.

Doesn't that make them more open-minded on the average than those who profess already to know the ultimate truths?
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Hardly as there is but one God and his name is Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. Christians and Jews get the protection of the law by paying the Jizya but in any legal conflict they, as unbelievers, can not give witness so the word of any muslim prevails. Women have it somewhat better, The word of 2 muslim women is equal to that of one muslim man.

People of other faiths can choose to believe their creeds, muslims have no choice. The Koran is the word and is quite clear in most cases what it says.

You do need to read a little more than just the Introduction to Islam. It is a really compelling study as it is so different from our beliefs.
 
As late as 1894 jizya was still being collected in Morocco; an Italian Jew described his experience there:

"The kadi Uwida and the kadi Mawlay Mustafa had mounted their tent today near the Mellah [Jewish ghetto] gate and had summoned the Jews in order to collect from them the poll tax [jizya] which they are obliged to pay the sultan. They had me summoned also. I first inquired whether those who were European-protected subjects had to pay this tax. Having learned that a great many of them had already paid it, I wished to do likewise. After having remitted the amount of the tax to the two officials, I received from the kadi’s guard two blows in the back of the neck. Addressing the kadi and the kaid, I said” ‘Know that I am an Italian protected subject.’ Whereupon the kadi said to his guard: ‘Remove the kerchief covering his head and strike him strongly; he can then go and complain wherever he wants.’ The guards hastily obeyed and struck me once again more violently. This public mistreatment of a European-protected subject demonstrates to all the Arabs that they can, with impunity, mistreat the Jews."

As this example shows the problem many Muslims have with Jews is that of a subject people who dares to usurp their natural masters. Much as the white Southerners in the USA direct particular venom against the ex-slave black population.

Even in its specifics this is not some ancient history, as demonstrated by the Sudanese Arabs against the southern black Christians and animists, and also against the black Sudanese of Darfur. In fact the Sudanese, Saudis and Mauritanians still practice slavery, with the justification of the Koran.
 
When you say that "there is but one God and his name is Allah" I think you make a mistake. You seem to refer to the basic creed expressed by the phrase: "La ilaha illa Allah" "There is no other god than God" i.e. there is just one God. You will find the same formulation in Jewish and Christian texts. "Allah" just means God and is not a proper name. Hence, the Q'ran tells us that Allah is the same God as the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed.

What you describe concerning taxes etc. is not so very different from what has been done in the name of religion by so many christian rulers. People of other faiths have always been persecuted, expropriated, discriminated etc. think of the jews in Spain in 16th and 17th century, catholics and protestants in England, repression changing with every newly crowned king or queen, etc. etc. That doesn't make muslims any worse than christians or jews.

About the mistreatment of "europeans" ina muslim country, isn't racial profiling the exact same thing? Mistreating people, criminalizing them because of their beliefs or ethnicity?
 
Cat, the difference is that the discrimination is not a dictate of the Christian New Testament, in fact it is counter to the teachings of Jesus, the Zororastrians, the Jain, the Bahaii, the Buddhists, Confucians, Daoists to just name a few. Even Judaism which had some primitive injunctions in the Old Testament has purged them from modern practice.

Infidels are still infidels. Jews were driven from Arabia and Infidels are excluded from certain Islamic sites and held inferior under Sharia so it is clear Islam does not equate belief in one God with belief in Allah.

Can you show me where Muslims have been forced to pay a poll tax and humiliated ritually in the payment? Where in western society are Muslims held to have no legal rights, unable to bear witness in a court of law? Where are Muslims not allowed to preach or proselytize?

The only reason some of the Islamic practices, such as slavery and misogynistic acts against women, have been moderated (but not eliminated) has been under pressure from the West. The fact that the West has done so seems to particularly anger many Muslims who are forming the support for militant Islam everywhere.

I do not hold with discrimination against muslims and would dearly love that that muslims reciprocated but clearly muslim violence and discrimination against non-muslims is spreading. I am hard put to find any creed or nationality that hasn't been attacked.

What is extremely disturbing is that they hold the Koran as supporting their actions, and clearly it does. Even those who would not dream of committing any of the crimes themselves have trouble declaring those actions are in conflict with the Koran.

The crime of apostasy makes even expressing a contrary view extremely dangerous. Islam's biggest problem is it has no way of safely allowing self criticism.

The non-muslim world emerged from most of its injustices long ago through liberalism and an increasingly open, free debate, that allowed the change.

Islam seems to be caught in a time warp and even has a large percentage trying to turn back time and lashing out at everyone else in the process.

To address directly your last issue of "racial profiling", this does not implicitly mean discrimination or persecution. If the criminal being sought is clearly a self declared muslim and largely Arabic or South Asian, are the police discriminating by searching for those characteristics? Neither are they being persecuted when they are going through due legal process, even if that is a legal process they themselves do not practice or respect.

Those muslims standing on the sideline but acting as the militants' cheersquad are being disingenuous if they think that doesn't make them accomplices to the act and therefore bring them under suspicion also.
 
The problems you report are not problems of islam as a faith, or even as an organised religion, but problems generated by Islamic nations, i.e. states where the official law is Islamic law, but the Sharia is based upon the Q'ran, it is not identical with the Q'ran and has changed over time. When have we stopped swearing on or by the bible or god in courtrooms and other pledges? Problems are generated when there is no clear separation between church and state. A personal faith becomes a tyrannical law for those who do not share it, it has happened everywhere in the world throughout history.

The problems you address come from islamic law not from islamic faith. Crusaders supported their actions also by appealing to the bible. Many States in the USA, "one nation under god", "in god we trust", carry out the death sentence even though in the bible it says "thou shalt not kill", how do you think they justify that? Well, you go poring over the theological literature until you find a loophole. Theologicians are notable for being even more insidious than lawyers. No wonder that fanatics can find all justification they need in their holy texts for their unholy actions.

Islam is every inch as peacful as christianity. Both can be twisted hither and tither by ruthless governments, but do not confuse the religious justification of political acts with faith.

With racial profiling you are not searching with an identikit at hand. You are scrrening millions of people that haven't yet done anything. That's racism. "Arabs/Northafricans/etc. are more likely to commit crimes, hence we keep a closer eye on them". Sounds reasonable, but is wrong. Justice cannot act by prejudging. Since when do we have a thought-police that can read minds? Since when are people condemned on vague signs of possible intentions alone?

Do you really think that the goal (temporarily increasing the public's sense of security by showing that "something is being done") justifies the means (abandoning the democratic principle that all subjects are equal before the law and presumed innocent until proven guilty)?
 
Cat said:
...the democratic principle that all subjects are equal before the law and presumed innocent until proven guilty)?
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That is the west's principle and only holds where muslims are not the government. The only Islamic country that comes remotely close is Turkey, and that is stretching it. Indonesia is working on it but mostly it is still only intent.

How do you separate Islamic faith from the Koran? It's statements are clear, not "loopholes", and not equitable to either muslims or non-muslims. Any attempt to interpret it in a milder light is met with death sentences.

Islam obtained its hold through the sword, unlike all the other creeds I nominated, and many of its exhortations, I quoted only some, are not peaceful.

There is even a death sentence declared on anyone choosing in their own conscience to follow another faith. How is that peaceful?

The only restraint ever on muslim expansion was their ultimate military failure, something that clearly angers many of the current militants. Obviously they are determined to renew the fight and there are virtually no Islamic authorities willing to flatly condemn them for it and many eager to encourage them.

Given their tactic of striking with no warning and using suicide tactics, waiting till after the event is obviously not an option. Irregardless muslims are not being rounded up randomly. The surveilance they are under is directed at those who are actually calling for or conspiring to violence. The same as police keep an eye on skinheads. I suppose that is racial profiling to "pick on" whites with shaven heads, Union Jack T-Shirts and heavy boots?

Broader surveillance would not be required if the muslim community itself clearly and flatly condemned the violent actions and took its own measures to weed out the perpetrators. Instead all we get is wishy washy platitudes for our benefit followed by much clearer statements that support or absolve the militants.
 
Who has taken a flight with "iffy" folks aboard?
I have, twice. Air Pakistan for one. New York, Paris, Karachi. Of course "they" never explode "their" own planes but remember Air India and other "3rd World" companies that have. Whatever......

Despite the the prayers in the corridors during the flight and the fact I couldn't get a beer, all went well. However, when I saw the pilote (because we all got off the plane at the same time at Orly), I was so glad to have arrived at my destination. Why? Because he had a prayer book in his hand and looked older then my stepfather who was 70 at the time.
1 year before 9/11.

I don't know what the moral of the story is. I just may fly Air Pakistan again however. Just to be on the safe side.Talk about profiles?
 
Ever fly with JAT, The old Jugoslav airlines? The pilots were all ex Air Force. Used to stroll across the tarmac, turn over the Illyusin's engines and take straight off from a cold start.

With the angle of ascent and descent I think they were practicing dogfights.

After all the excitement they delivered us to the wrong city, having changed destinations on the ticket without telling us.

Definitely no "God willing" there, just a flight into the unknown in the hands of disgruntled public servants with a death wish.
 
I never argued for separating the Islamic faith from the Koran, quite the contrary. I argued for separating the Islamic faith from Islamic politics. We hardly have an issue with Muslims per se, we might have an issue with Islamic governments who condone or sponsor terrorism and we surely have a problem with terrorism, no matter who perpetrates it.

If we start to apply other rules to foreigners than we apply to ourselves, our "universal" values go down the crapper. That's just apartheid all over again. Making two lines to acces the plane "white - non white" is just plain old racism. And isn't that the same problem you are pointing out in Islamic societies? That some people are not seen as full members of the community?

I'm not really impressed by your argument that under Islamic law apostates are killed. The catholic church has been burning people alive for hundreds of years for disagreeing with the official christian worldview, which rests on a literal interpretation of the bible. Pope John Paul II finally acknowledged in the 1990's that perhaps threatening Galileo wasn't such a good move after all and that perhaps they shouldn't have burned Giordano Bruno alive in 1600. What do you expect of Islam? Why would you hold it to higher standards that those we have followed in our own history? People in western europe have been blowing each other up with the same tactics in the '70 and '80, blowing up trains, plains, public buildings for the same kind of irrational idealogical wars over right and left wing politics. They haven't been defeated with mitlitary firepower, but made part of a fair and open political process. This takes some time, but if our values are truly universal, and not just because we said so and will shoot you if you don't agree, the rest of the world will come around eventually, step by step to share them. If we are the first to abandon them in times of trouble, then what values are they?
 
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