What's your opinion about Macwarez?!

[ElDiabloConCaca]

Valrus -- I admire your honesty and integrity!

That is pretty much the point I've been trying to make throughout this whole thread. People feel "justified" in pirating software because they think it's a "message" to the developers that their software is buggy and overpriced. Well, there's another way (a BETTER and more EFFECTIVE way) to send that same message, and that's exactly what your post embodies.

Adobe will get the clue that PhotoShop is overpriced (a statement I DON'T agree with -- it's an AMAZING program) when people start using shareware or free alternatives to accomplish the same tasks.

I used to pirate software as well -- until I started becoming a Computer Science major. I saw how tedious and how much work went into making a simple program like a program to roll a pair of dice! And all I got out of the course was an 'A' printed on a piece of paper and the hopes that one day it'll get me somewhere. Someone who can make a living doing that on a much more intricate and larger scale has my respect and admiration, and my money if I'm interested in what they write! I look and will continue to look down upon those who think that piracy is justified or not objectionable in that light -- or those who do pirate and refuse to even look at the situation from a different angle.

Piracy is theft. Just because you don't swipe a box of software doesn't mean you're doing anything less illegal or less objectionable. The boxes and manuals and CDs are the LEAST expensive part of the process -- it's the data on the CDs and the ingenuity and thought that went into that program... and whether you steal a box of software or copy it illegally from the internet, it's the priciple that you're getting something for free that you shouldn't.

Again, I respect and admire your honesty and integrity, and it's refreshing to hear from someone who has "seen the light" of piracy and decided against it for themself and what it does to software publishers.

 

[AppleWatcher]

Here are some quotes from different people...

Office is now a leader because thousands of people used illegal copies of it for years. That's how they (and Adobe, and Macromedia, and others) became leaders : because everyone was using their products.

This is a very good point, I think!

Why did Napster die? Because too many people were pirating music. It's tolerated when you make a copy from a friend who loans you a CD.

But.... It's exactly the same thing: warez
And I don't think Microsoft is dying because of there warez.
Nor Adobe is or would.

We might wind up in a future where no software will work without authenticating over the internet every 30 seconds.

That is pretty much the point I've been trying to make throughout this whole thread. People feel "justified" in pirating software because they think it's a "message" to the developers that their software is buggy and overpriced. Well, there's another way (a BETTER and more EFFECTIVE way) to send that same message, and that's exactly what your post embodies.

Hmmmmm..... That's a little short

Adobe will get the clue that PhotoShop is overpriced (a statement I DON'T agree with -- it's an AMAZING program)

You're right about the Amazing-thing but Photoshop is WAY too expensive for the individual human...

I used to pirate software as well

WHAT???

until I started becoming a Computer Science major

You're proud of that title, aren't you...?

I saw how tedious and how much work went into making a simple program like a program to roll a pair of dice! And all I got out of the course was an 'A' printed on a piece of paper and the hopes that one day it'll get me somewhere. Someone who can make a living doing that on a much more intricate and larger scale has my respect and admiration, and my money if I'm interested in what they write! I look and will continue to look down upon those who think that piracy is justified or not objectionable in that light -- or those who do pirate and refuse to even look at the situation from a different angle.

But the people at Adobe (for example) are probably well-paid for doing that!

AppleWatcher

 

[dlookus]

---------------------------------------------
Support the Admin! Donate money!
---------------------------------------------

How about supporting the people who provide all of the services you use?

But the people at Adobe (for example) are probably well-paid for doing that!

So you are justified in stealing software because these people are making a decent living? have you ever stopped to think that people have lost their jobs because of pirating? Maybe when you have a career you'll understand, but you clearly don't now. And you say "probably"? You mean you don't know, yet you'll keep copying and distributing this software anyway?

 

[Jadey]

Question for those of you here who are against piracy under any circumstances: Do you download mp3s?

 

[roger]

Not copyrighted music, no. I download free mp3's for up and coming DJs out of interest. All my MP3's are from CDs that I have bought.

Roger.

 

[vic]

"Why did Napster die? Because too many people were pirating music. It's tolerated when you make a copy from a friend who loans you a CD."

that;s not true napster died because it was shut down by law

P.S.

anybody that doesnt pirate software does not need that software. people that piate software need the software but don't have the money to use it. so what's the big deal? when that student that can't pay for photosho get's his/her dream career, they will have enough money to buy adobe photoshop. THat is the only reason why software companies tolerate pyracy, to ensure thy will have future customers.

 

[Valrus]

MP3's are where I'm most guilty, I think. I have some MP3's of songs on albums I would never buy, and that's my only rationalization. Perhaps I'll get rid of them soon, so I won't be keeping a double standard.
I also have some live songs and/or covers and/or "team products" that, as far as I know, aren't available anywhere. Technically, these are probably songs that No One should have, because they are from bootlegs or something. But (and I hate to say this when I've been boasting my moral superiority) no one's getting money for them now anyway, and I believe I own virtually all the albums by the bands in question, so I've paid my dues.

Or have I? I buy all my CD's used. The bands aren't getting any money from me anyway. But is there anything immoral about stores that sell used merchandise, really? I'd like to know people's opinions on that.

Anyway, I also have some MP3's that are just plain stealing and that I should dispose of instantly. I think I will get rid of some of them, right now, since they're on albums that I want to get anyway, and if I get rid of the songs I have on them I'll have more incentive to buy them. Used, of course.

Caught me out on that one, but I mentioned it before. Don't try to catch the anti-piracy people doing something illegal to solidify your own stance. It's a classic logical fallacy, an ad hominem argument.

later.

-the valrus

 

[ElDiabloConCaca]

Originally posted by vic
anybody that doesnt pirate software does not need that software. people that piate software need the software but don't have the money to use it. so what's the big deal? when that student that can't pay for photosho get's his/her dream career, they will have enough money to buy adobe photoshop. THat is the only reason why software companies tolerate pyracy, to ensure thy will have future customers.

I don't know of a single software company that has said that they TOLERATE piracy. They accept that a certain percentage of their user base is using the software illegally -- like when Microsoft said, "Hey, we know not everyone is licensed. Here's your chance to buy licenses for your unlicensed use before we take action," -- but that's different from tolerance. Show me a software company that tolerates piracy (NOT accepts a small percentage of it) and I'll show you a guy who will now download 15 multi-thousand dollar programs in one hour.

Point: Piracy is NOT tolerated. Piracy is an action with an accepted (accepted meaning that the software companies are AWARE of it -- NOT OK WITH IT) percentage that companies figure into their expenses -- which is one small reason prices of software steadily go up, along with many other factors.

 

[vic]

of course they won't tell you they tollerate software piracy, but last i checked humans were still capable of lying, a few months ago words like "ethnic clensing" were used by politicians in order to make racist massacres sound perty. so don't give me that "as said that they TOLERATE piracy" shit. if anybody said that, then it would mean your conscience was allowed to be free of guilt if you did pirate their software.

 

[ElDiabloConCaca]

Are you comparing software companies saying they tolerate (or don't tolerate) piracy to politicians' use of "ethnic cleansing" for racial massacres? Wow... I made a comment in this same thread about one person being right while many others being wrong and was compared to Charles Manson... don't you think those comments are being a bit extreme? I'm not feeding anyone bullshit -- and even if I was, it doesn't mean I agree or disagree with you one way or the other.

Hehe... on a lighter note, lemme tell ya a little story to lighten the mood in this thread:

A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was so cold, the bird froze and fell to the ground in a large field. While it was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on it. As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung, it began to realize how warm it was. The dung was actually thawing him out! He lay there all warm and happy and soon began to sing
for joy. A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate. Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung and promptly dug him out and ate him!

Lessons:

1) Not everyone who drops shit on you is your enemy.
2) Not everyone who gets you out of shit is your friend.
3) And when you're in deep shit, keep your mouth shut.

At any rate, on with the rebuttal...

Even though the software companies don't say they tolerate piracy, I think we could all come to a consensus and agree that software companies don't like piracy, nor do they condone it, nor would they support it in any form. Can we agree on that? I think they KNOW that it happens, and they use some statistical figures to try and see how much piracy goes on, calculate that into losses on their revenue, and adjust some other figures accordingly. Just because they do that doesn't mean that they tolerate it -- they are just aware that it happens.

 

[whitesaint]

Your posts are so full of detail and make so much sense when reading them! I've changed all my views on software piracy after reading your posts. It's wrong, i hope everyone stops it. Except for Microsoft of course...

 

[Jadey]

Personally I don't care if people pirate music or software. That's their business, not mine. However, I think they're both the same. It's interesting that arguments that are made for software piracy are considered not valid, whereas they're supported for music piracy. Example:

More arguments can be made against the music industry (RIAA) which holds these extreme positions:

Yeah, the RIAA has some really terrible positions. So does Microsoft. Especially now.

* no readily available internet distribution

Music are the most often traded files on the net. "mp3" has long surpassed "porn" as the most popular key search on search engines.

* does not permit copying music from CDs that you buy; or to rip mp3s for your iPod player (which I believe is in violation of Fair Use exemption to Copyright)

Yes, this is dumb. Not all software end user license agreements allow you to make backup copies either.

* often no means to listen or "demo" an album before you buy it

Arguably, that's what radio, MuchMusic and MTV are for.

Not picking on you Testuser, in fact I agree most of your points. But why aren't other people's arguments valid when they make the same points about software piracy? Seems we justify our own actions and condemn others.

 

[AppleWatcher]

BIG QUOTE:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Support the Admin! Donate money!
---------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about supporting the people who provide all of the services you use?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the people at Adobe (for example) are probably well-paid for doing that!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you are justified in stealing software because these people are making a decent living? have you ever stopped to think that people have lost their jobs because of pirating? Maybe when you have a career you'll understand, but you clearly don't now. And you say "probably"? You mean you don't know, yet you'll keep copying and distributing this software anyway?

Now you are making a big mistake

If you've read this thread completely, you'll find that I've
never said that I'm using warez!!!

Maybe it's like I'm using warez, but that's not true...

You mean you don't know, yet you'll keep copying and distributing this software anyway?

Sorry but this is real B*LLSH*T!

AppleWatcher

 

[AppleWatcher]

Wheee!

----------
There are exceptions to these generalizations: some software makers probably don't allow you to make a backup copy (although I'm not aware of any), and some bands distribute their music via mp3s on the internet.

My suggestions are aimed at trying to do what is best for everyone's interest in the long run:
* piracy doesn't help to spread the word and popularity of a business; it tends to do the opposite and drive them out of business
* having severe copy restrictions and distribution schemes are bad for business. They also treat each user as if he is a criminal (or potential criminal), even if he uses the product legally.

I am aware that people pirate and it does not concern me. However, I find it offensive when someone tries to justify one's piracy, or worse yet, explain how one's piracy benefits a company and society as a whole. I think copyright owners deserve protection from having their intellectual property stolen and freely distributed by others.

On the other hand, society benefits from having exemptions to copyright laws: for purposes of education, having backup copies in case the original fails, and to have open standards (instead of proprietary technology) to facilitate commerce. I believe it is necessary to stand up against companies who try to block "fair use" through technology, or who infringe upon an individual's privacy in order to prevent copyright infringement.
------

I think this is a very clear point and I believe I agree with it (my English is not that good ).
Maybe it is a little against things I've earlier said, but I agree with the text above.

But... what about Microsoft? That's something else, I think.

I mean, there is a big, big difference between 'stealing' mp3's and copying software from Microsoft.

AppleWatcher

 

[ElDiabloConCaca]

Originally posted by testuser
This is the balance that needs to be achieved.

Yes. Well-put. As stated many times before, the computer/computer technology arena is still in its infancy, even though it's decades old. It is understandable that any new thing such as computer technology will go through a state of flux before the dust settles and we can all agree on a common set of standards concerning copyright policy, licensing terms and fair-use. Unfortunately, we actually NEED people to pirate software at the moment... and I'm not saying it's right or justified in any way. We need them because they will ultimately be the ones that will help us shape anti-piracy laws and help protect intellectual property in the future. Think about it: if no one ever pirated software (whoa, weird thought!) we wouldn't need anti-piracy laws. But, since people are doing it now, we'll be able to examine their actions and methods and protect against them in the future.

The balance will come -- maybe not in my lifetime, but soon enough. It will also cause other industries to re-think or re-examine their practices in light of new technology -- just like the RIAA and Napster. We must trust that in the end the standards that arise will be for the benefit of the masses -- not to give any one area more of an advantage than another. The software companies will get paid rightly for their software, the user will have paid a fair price for use of the software, and it will all be a relatively painless, capitalistic experience.

 

[ElDiabloConCaca]

Originally posted by whitesaint
Your posts are so full of detail and make so much sense when reading them! I've changed all my views on software piracy after reading your posts. It's wrong, i hope everyone stops it. Except for Microsoft of course...

Thank you very much! I try hard to look at things from an un-biased stance and I hope that shows in my posts. I try to see the merit in both the "for" and "against" in a particular subject and make my statements accordingly. Thanks again.

...and don't worry. Microsoft will get what's coming to them, in due time. I'm glad the justice they're going to get isn't coming as swifty as some would have hoped -- usually, when people make decisions or punish someone in a hurry, the punishment is not fitting or is irrational. Microsoft will get what they deserve -- that's what I'm looking forward to... but it's not my position to punish them. It's not anyone's position except the companies that suffered because of them (GOOD companies, like Be) and then and only then through legal, upstanding ways -- like a good, ol'-fashioned sue-fest!

I wouldn't feel bad pirating Microsoft software -- although I don't do it. If I did pirate software, I'd go for the Microsoft stuff first. However, feeling justified in pirating Microsoft software is a little like looting, isn't it? Microsoft is under a lot of pressure and stress to change their ways from a lot of different angles, and then along come all these people who, just because of their monopolistic practices, think it's ok to come along and steal while Microsoft is defending themself. It's looting. At least that's how I look at it.

...and, yes, Microsoft is big and bad. They've done wrong. A lot of wrong. They've taken to anti-competetive practices to advance ahead of the competition. BUT -- in this nation, they DO have the right to defend themselves, and that's something that we can't take away from them. We can't punish them right now -- we don't even know everything they've done yet. How many people here can name 5 things that Microsoft did that broke the law for certain? You may say you can or cannot, but that Microsoft was just plain sneaky and dirty -- what say you about your own piracy practices, then?

 

[dlookus]

If you've read this thread completely, you'll find that I've
never said that I'm using warez!!!

You are still trying to justify it. You can't dismiss that.

 

[Neozzz]

I love warez, why pay when you can get it for free?
Besides they are way to expensive. I rather use those money to buy new macs. I will use warez forever until I become millionaire or something. I don't feel ashamed about it at all. Welcome to the real world.

 

[AppleWatcher]

I didn't thought we would agree, but:

I wouldn't feel bad pirating Microsoft software -- although I don't do it. If I did pirate software, I'd go for the Microsoft stuff first. However, feeling justified in pirating Microsoft software is a little like looting, isn't it? Microsoft is under a lot of pressure and stress to change their ways from a lot of different angles, and then along come all these people who, just because of their monopolistic practices, think it's ok to come along and steal while Microsoft is defending themself. It's looting. At least that's how I look at it.

I agree with this, Diablo

And...

You are still trying to justify it. You can't dismiss that.

Maybe you're right, but I mean, Photoshop IS really expensive for students... And that's only one point. But let's continue about Microsoft

AppleWatcher

 

[ElDiabloConCaca]

Originally posted by Neozzz
I love warez, why pay when you can get it for free?
Besides they are way to expensive. I rather use those money to buy new macs. I will use warez forever until I become millionaire or something. I don't feel ashamed about it at all. Welcome to the real world.

Congratulations. You are now a member of the newest generation of thieves. No longer will thieves be looked down upon! No longer will shoplifters be the underdogs of society! Why shoplift when you can steal sitting on your ass in front of your computer without ever leaving the house?

If this is something to be proud of and gloat about, then I'll give you a round of applause. Congrats. Let me know how this works out for you in life.

Yes, welcome to the real world: thieves exist, as well as upstanding citizens who get the respect they deserve and abide by the law -- not because it is simply the law, but because we believe in what the law stands for, and we don't want to see hard-working people miss out on the credit and paycheck they deserve. I'm happy that you have chosen which of those categories you'd like to be a member of.