10.2.8 - second time around. Do you trust it?

karavite

karavite

Registered
This morning my little system updater came up to tell me there is an upgrade for 10.2.8 available. Gee, that sounds familiar! :)

Apparently this is the new one, not the one they pulled a few weeks ago. Then again, how would I know this is a new improved update (other than it being available on the updater)? I mean, does Apple explain anything about this? Does Apple apologize for the previous mistake? Does Apple do anything to reassure me that this upgrade is fully tested? Noooooooo!

I was hesitant enough with OS X upgrades - most are fine, but occasionally you get a lousy one (10.2.6 was bad for me). Now there is no way on Gods Green Earth I am installing this one. It is simply a matter of trust. Sad to say, I will use macosx.com to see if other people have trouble or not before I decide to take the 10.2.8 plunge. The people and community that has helped me so much are now my updater lab rats! That is awful, but true.

So Apple, just what is the deal? WHY CAN"T YOU JUST BE HONEST OR OPEN and say something to us users about all this to help restablish some trust? Just a little comment - "We are very sorry we released 10.2.8 with bugs and have examined and modified our release strategies to avoid this kind of mistake from ever happening again." If you had any balls, you would put something like that right in the updater text. I mean come on, it isn't like you are Enron or WorldCom and the FTC found huge accounting problems, it's not like you are Microsoft with 25 security holes a year, it's not like you just launched a war based on CIA intelligence that was false, it is not like you had sex with a Whitehouse intern... - it is just a little system update you screwed up!

Whoever is telling you that this sweeping it under the rug/no comment stratgey is the right strategy is wrong! I'm a good customer and it isn't working with me! I used to be exctied with system updates, now I am in fear of them! Stop the CYA (cover your a$$) methods and be up front about this and I will love and trust you again. When in doubt, think, "What would my mother tell me to do here?"
 
Apple didn't sweep it under the rug. As with any OS, update, patch, etc, there could be problems for some people. Apple pulled the update extremely quickly to avoid too many people from having problems as soon as they knew about the problem, and that was less than half a day. Not too shabby. As far as info on the 10.2.8 patch, it would have taken you less time to find and READ ABOUT IT than it took you to type this.

I installed the original 10.2.8 on my G4 desktop and Powerbook without any problems, which were minor problems. I downloaded the 10.2.8 patch and updated both machines with out any problems

modified our release strategies to avoid this kind of mistake from ever happening again

No one could give you this kind of a promise. I think Apple does very well.

What would this post have been like if you were using Windoze :(
 
"We're really, really, really sorry that the Internet and your lives were interrupted again by our 27th RPC bug this year. We have modified our coding strategies to avoid this kind of mistake from ever happening again. This time we'll try really REALLY hard to eliminate these problems. As this is the 27th time we've reorganized our coding strategies this year, we're starting to get really good at it. Sorry again about the problems, but we'd like to remind you that in the near future MS operating systems will run on 100% of desktops, so you'd be best to stop harassing your Microsoft masters.

Love,
Steve 'Uncle Fester' Balmer"
 
Personally I think the last bit was a pretty bug PR gaff for ol' Stevie, but the "Love" thing was a nice touch.
 
bobw - no offense, but that link was hardly descriptive in telling me the new update was safe to install. The internet and Apple's site is a big place and all I saw was articles on Apple's hush hush pulling of the update and no comments to the press about it. I'm looking for a direct push from Apple to me as a user and not having to scour the web for information. My point is, I was burned by a few OS X updates and I no longer trust them. I swear to you, when a new update comes out, my first reaction is to close the updater and come to macosx.com to see what problems people are having. My next step is to once again remind my mother and sisterinlaw to not run the update on their Macs until I give them the go ahead (they were burned too). I doubt I am alone in my OS X update hesitancy. It wasn't always this way - I used to click install right away and was so excited that Apple was giving me some new software.

I'm sure some would tell me I need to take responsibility and go out and search the web/Apple's site prior to every update, but in 2003 I would expect my computer company (Apple not MS) to give me worry free and solid updates. I think Apple could do a bit more to help me and other users feel more confident in them, but they have eroded this. Sure, had it been MS, it would be so much worse, but that is what I am trying to say - Apple seemed to handle this one in a MS like style.
 
I don't know how long you've been using Macs, but it sounds as though you may be new to Macs, (I know you're probably not new to Macs), otherwise you would know Apples reputation for their systems and correcting problems as fast as they can. They may not always be forth coming in these announcements, but they have to find the problem first. Within an hour or so, there were numerous sites reporting on the problems with 10.2.8 and the fixes. The main problem was the Ethernet problem, and a quick fix was out there almost immediately.

I think Apple may sort of rely on it's loyal customer base to help out like this. There's always a bunch of people looking for fixes when problems like this occur, installing updates the minute they're released. I always install as soon as they're release, but I admit, on my Powerbook in case something gets screwed up, and that hasn't happend to me in 12 or 14 years of using Macs.

Look at how fast this update was pulled. Most Mac people didn't even know it was available. Now it this were a MS update, I think it would have taken weeks before it was pulled, or even admitted too.

Us Mac folk usually haf mighty li'l t'wo'ry about compared t'Windoze users
 
karavite,

You won't find a stronger Apple supporter than me out there. My business is setting up, running and maintaining Apple computers. I'm the sole service provider for more than 60 Macs currently.

The first thing I do on any system I set up is turn off Apple's software updater. I don't care how much time and effort Apple puts into making sure their updates work correctly, the only test that matters to me is how they run in the wild. 1-2 weeks minimum of watching other people beta test new software.

Apple is a company of people, and people make mistakes and errors from time to time. Apple users are a group of people, they don't always leave their systems exactly as Apple had them off the factory floor. Third party software makers are people, their software might not work with everyones system the same way as the ones they tested it on. That is a lot of people involved, things can (and most likely will) go wrong.

Is this a new thing for me? No!

Do I blame Apple? No!

Chacing updates is like racing trains. Personally, I'll wait until it is clear before my systems or any of the systems I'm responsible for cross those tracks.


It wasn't that long ago that Apple had the problem with iTunes 2.0 installer. And people have issues with every update I've seen so far.

My PowerBook G3 had Mac OS X v10.2 with the 10.2.1 update installed on Sept 18, 2002. It stayed exactly the same (no updates) until Sept 19, 2003 when I knew I would have a few day window to install and trouble shoot 10.2.6. Odds are I won't be updating this system for another couple months (or if business keeps me busy, maybe another year ;) ). I can tell you this, had 10.2.8 come up at about the same time as I was updating, I still would have only updated to 10.2.6 (I have copies of all the updates saved on a CD). I only had information on how 10.2.6 ran on systems like my own.

Sad to say, I will use macosx.com to see if other people have trouble or not before I decide to take the 10.2.8 plunge. The people and community that has helped me so much are now my updater lab rats! That is awful, but true.
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What is so awful about this? You can't stop people (like you before getting burned) from applying things as they are released. There is no honor in blindly stepping into problems. This forum and others are great places for the cautious and the wise.

And if you are looking for a personal apology from Apple, maybe you should call them. Personally, I don't see this as any different from any other update... but then again, I was sitting back and watching you take the plunge.
 
matt - yes it will. and only a 500+ k download. and it works great. lots of people are noticing the internet is faster afterwards.
 
I don't see the rush to upgrade/alter a working system unless you need to. The only upgrades that I ever use are combo updaters. They are usually available within a reasonable period of time and are generally safer updates for systems with important/work related information stored on them. Whats wrong with a little patience? As a matter of interest, how many people reading this post update within hours/days of an update becoming available?
 
Originally posted by lilbandit I don't see the rush to upgrade/alter a working system unless you need to.
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That's what I'm thinking! I started with the initial Jaguar release and updated through 10.2.6, which has been so great (knock on wood) that I probably won't do 10.2.8 since Panther is so close and I'm probably going to stick with Jaguar. After all, how many more updates can they release so close to 10.3?

Is this fuzzy thinking? I'm open to criticism if anyone has a logical argument. I don't see anything on the update release that I need and I've heard that it will screw with certain haxies that I've come to depend on.
 
I have the 10.2.8 update on my G4 Powerbook and desktop and have no problems.
 
Originally posted by lilbandit
I don't see the rush to upgrade/alter a working system unless you need to.
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I agree, there's no rush in cases like that. Of course, even if my system is WORKING, it could always work faster, and there are always those bugs that I just haven't run into yet. Since every update says "includes performance enhancements and bugfixes" I always think "cool! I need that".

If a system's critical and there's no immediate problem fixed by the upgrade, though, it's just not smart to upgrade as soon as an update is available. Most smart sysadmins sit and watch while the "bleeding edge" guys test out the patch. Once it looks like the update is stable, they update is TESTED before it's rolled out onto production systems.

And even then there's no guarantee everything will be completely without hiccup.

Apple did just fine with this - they pulled the patch as soon as it was clear that people were having problems, they fixed the problems, and released an article explaining the situation. I don't see why they have to suck up to us and try to "rebuild our trust" because a few thousand people had problems that they quickly corrected.

Had it been something like the recent Windows RPC bugs, well, then maybe they'd have to suck up to me =)
 
Originally posted by djkowall
I don't see anything on the update release that I need and I've heard that it will screw with certain haxies that I've come to depend on.
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i think that's fair enough reasoning. but i've yet to find an update that hasn't improved something for me. this latest one has improved internet browsing thru an ethernet connection. and fixed a problem with my external drives properly mounting at bootup. it also sounds important for bluetoooth users. but if you don't have any of those things, there probably isn't much here you really need.

i usually update the first few revisions as soon as they come out because there are always needed fixes at that point. then i tend to start waiting a day or three as they get to be higher in version number unless they refer to something that seems relevant to me. this one was relevant with the drive issue. and the other added benefits are great as well.
 
EVERYone wants an apology these days... like they've never screwed up bigger than that in their life and not had to apologize for it... :p I'll bet that more than half of the people who want an apology for the 1st 10.2.8 update didn't even experience problems with it!

I'm just glad Apple ain't like Microsoft. I use a Windows box every other day or so and it amazes me to see two or three new updates every other day! I had one updater recommend updating the hard disk driver, which I did through Windows Update, and the hard drive was no longer readable after that. Completely lost. Never ran into a problem like that with an Apple.
 
Just to be clear - I did not update to 10.2.8. Also, I have been using Macs for 15 years. In my experience with Apple, this kind of thing is rare. I am dealing with quite a few new mac users - who I helped convince to get a Mac - and in the past few months all have been burned by updates on new computers and systems that are hardly unconventional and/or modified. 10.2.6 and iMovie 3 for example. I have had OS X running from beta and though a few updates were a little iffy, most were fantastic. This past year this has changed for me on a 1 year old G4 I Ghz where various upgrades have caused problems requiring me to do reinstalls. No, the hardware tests out perfectly. It is a great machine and I love the hell out of it. I just don't want to clean it up every time Apple has an update. I have four drives and ALWAYS back up my system to a spare drive before running an Apple update. Most new home users of Macs do not have multiple drives.

Do you guys see the Apple commercials? Tell me, who is Apple marketing to and what are they saying in their ads? They are specifically going after home and small business users who are fed up with Windows and all the included BS and just want to enjoy their computer for email, common apps, the web, pictures, music and movies. Blaming these Mac users for not taking more responsibility in learning about their complex software is like blaming car owners for not knowing how to do a valve job.

To non-geeky-scour-the-forums/web-type Mac users at home, when the system updater pops up and says - "Hey, here is an update for you." they seem to assume this will be a enhancement and/or safe thing to run. How silly of them! What fools for not spending half their day on the web reading about their OS! How stupid of them to think that in 2003 the IT industry has not yet figured out how to properly test software! What morons for not turning off the system updater!

I realize there was a mad scramble at Apple to clean up 10.2.8 and the programmers were probably running around like maniacs, but Apple does have a PR department doesn't it? Or were they all helping out in debugging code too? All I wanted was a little statement about what happened and why. Is that so much to ask? It sure would have seperated Apple from the crowd!

If Apple wants to be like any other computer/software company, then they should hire you guys to go around and talk about how technically complex it is, how 3rd party software may be an issue, how all potential issues cannot be considered..., and/or cover it up when they screw up. This 10.2.8 thing with the no comment from Apple was in the New York Times - I am not making it up. "No comment" is not the brand image I associate with Apple. I can still "love" Apple and critique them can't I? Or do I have to be a "Apple can do no wrong drone" too?
 
Sure, Apple shouldn't release faulty upgrades. But what if it happens? Errare humanum est ...
Very few systems were affected, within a few hours solutions and workarounds were posted, within a day Apple retracted the update, all major Mac news sites talked about it, within a week Apple released a fixed patch and the people who intalled the previous one only need to download & install about 500Kb ...

Of course they should have tested it thoroughly, but once in the real world things can crop up that weren't noticed in the laboratory. Both Apple and the Mac community reacted very well, IMHO. A formal apology seems a bit exaggerated ...

People don't need to spend their lives on the net or to become technical experts in order to understand every single aspect of software and hardware of the systems they use, but still I think that reading a news site related to a product you use daily for work, hobby or leisure is quite normal ... especially when the product is a computer. And one would only have to have read one of about a dozen mac or computer related news sites.
 
Originally posted by karavite
Do you guys see the Apple commercials? Tell me, who is Apple marketing to and what are they saying in their ads? They are specifically going after home and small business users who are fed up with Windows and all the included BS and just want to enjoy their computer for email, common apps, the web, pictures, music and movies. Blaming these Mac users for not taking more responsibility in learning about their complex software is like blaming car owners for not knowing how to do a valve job.
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This (and the next paragraph) is, actually, a very good point. Good reply.

I still don't think that Apple particularly owes me a popup that says "we apologize for the previous screw-up. We'll do our best not to do it again.", however.
 
I am dealing with quite a few new mac users - who I helped convince to get a Mac - and in the past few months all have been burned by updates on new computers and systems that are hardly unconventional and/or modified. 10.2.6 and iMovie 3 for example. I have had OS X running from beta and though a few updates were a little iffy, most were fantastic. This past year this has changed for me on a 1 year old G4 I Ghz where various upgrades have caused problems requiring me to do reinstalls. No, the hardware tests out perfectly. It is a great machine and I love the hell out of it. I just don't want to clean it up every time Apple has an update.

and

I can still "love" Apple and critique them can't I? Or do I have to be a "Apple can do no wrong drone" too?
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Wow. To date, I have not had to reinstall Mac OS X on any system. To date, I know of only one person whose system was so badly damaged (by third party hack software) that he needed to reinstall.

If you are technically proficient, then you should already not trust software updates... from any one. If you have set up people with Macs (which is what I do for a living) then you should have taken the time to turn off the software updater for them. You then, as a technically proficient person, should tell them when it is clear to update (or go over when you get a chance and run the updates for them).

What is most surprising is that you, as a technically proficient person, have had to reinstall your software... more than once. And all because you did trust Apple.

How much more of a critique can I give than to say DO NOT UPDATE WHEN APPLE RELEASES UPDATES! I would have to say that that is as far from being a "Apple can do no wrong drone" as you can get.

This is not a hard concept. I can't afford for my systems to go down. My clients can't afford for their systems to go down. To the greatest degree I can possibly take, I make sure that everything that my clients have on their systems are known to be working.

The question is: Why haven't you been doing this too if you are this upset by an unsurprising and unremarkable event?

This type of thing happens with Apple, it happens with Adobe, it happens with Microsoft, it happens with Macromedia, it happens! And it is completely unrealistic to think it won't. When it is a constant thing (like Microsoft's daily patches) then it is time to start asking for an explanation.

After 15 years, you really should know this.
 
10.2.4 cost me 150 dollars for a new battery. It cost lots of people... Sure it'd be nice if Steve cut me (us) a check to cover it, but such is life. When you and I make a company as big as Apple, we'll make sure we set a new standard, but that will be what we control.

No one ever said there weren't risks, and to me a risk-free life is not worth living. You manage your risks, don't go bungie jumping in Moscow, don't swim in the Nile and don't try to run across I-80 at rush hour.

Don't run updates on the first day (which you didn't, so you did good).

When you do take the risk it is your risk, not the Moscow carnival owners and not the guys who laid the pavement for I-80.
 
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