Arafats mysterious ailment

[Tetano]

I think avoiding escalation is all up to Hamas and Hezbollah at this point since these groups refuse to acknowledge Israel's existance, refuse to cooperate with the peace process, constantly try to derail any progress in the 'Roadmap' to peace by homicide bombing, and they teach this hateful philosophy to their children. There are actually schools full of children being taugh that Israel doesn't exist, it's not even on their map, and that Jews are subhuman. Say what you want about Sharon, but you don't see the Israeli's doing anything that evil.

well, Israeli's army is killing also many innocent people with their bomb, and i don't see a real difference between dropping the bomb from a plane or a tank and taking it by foot... and making a people die of hunger building a wall that prevent that people going to work is even worse that saying that a country doesn't exist, is making it disappear...

 

[habilis]

I'm an atheist, so I don't get hung up on the word 'evil' but there's a manifestation of extreme cruelty in all of us that can be germinated in children with a gentle sprinkling of hate. This equates the word, no religious connection.

The level of evil is not equal on both sides here. This is the same thing Osama and the left wing is trying to make us believe, that Americans are evil, as evil as terrorists. And just as hate didn't win the election, evil will not win this argument.

 

[pds]

Um - you just conceded the point.

You equated America with Israel. The points brought up by Cat and others were concerning the actions of Israel, not the US. Cat did not call the US evil, but Israel; and you felt it was directed at you (or at America). The same way the "baddies" equate the two.

Neither America nor Americans are evil, only selfish and self absorbed. It's kind of the plight of all people on earth.

 

[bbloke]

habilis, one more time, I would point you to the living conditions of the Palestinians.

I have also heard from a friend who visited Palestine and was shocked by what he saw. His assessment was that the Palestinians were pushed too far for too long and have reached such a desperate point where they have nothing left to lose, hence the more desperate attacks on Israel. I think Zammy-Sam's metaphor is a good one...

I would also strongly contest this idea that the Israelis have not behaved in a reprehensible way. I know of Israeli soldiers once being told to break literally every bone in the body of suspects in Lebanon, starting with the lower body, and then leaving them to die in wastelands. I know of the usage of torture within Israel. I have seen Israeli settlers teach their children that all Palestinians are "dogs" and that they are subhuman, and also teach their children to use guns from an early age, complete with the kids pretending to shoot at Palestinians nearby. Tell me that all this is entirely innocent and that this situation is entirely the fault of "the Palestinians" (all of them).

habilis, you also get far too hung up on using political groupings and ignore the situation. You like referring to what you think "the left" want everyone to believe, but you seem unable to address actual facts. As a result, it feels to me like you're not really debating with us. You also say you are not hung up on the word evil, but then used the word five times in your last post.

I want to stress that I never once said (or even believed!) that America or Americans are evil, nor that I think things are one-sided. My previous posts were not intended to be anti-American; I think that the ability to protest is one of our important freedoms, and that protesting is actually patriotic because it shows one cares about the state of a nation! So, I wanted to show you that things are not perfect in America and that American foreign policy has not always been particularly "good," but this is the same world-wide and so does not apply to just America. That is, I wanted to redress a balance, not slander the USA. I think the world is a very complex place and problems are not solved by making one set of people "the bad guys" and the other set "the good guys."

 

[Satcomer]

Um - you just conceded the point.

You equated America with Israel. The points brought up by Cat and others were concerning the actions of Israel, not the US. Cat did not call the US evil, but Israel; and you felt it was directed at you (or at America). The same way the "baddies" equate the two.

Neither America nor Americans are evil, only selfish and self absorbed. It's kind of the plight of all people on earth.

I take issue with this statement! So you hate me because I am American? Your stereotype is way off base! When you walk in my shoes or live for a while in America then you will see we are no different than you are. Your reasoning would lead Americans to think all Europeans anti-Semitic (which I do not think) or all Canadians are pot-smoking alcoholics (which they are not). That kind of thinking will lead to hatred and hatred leads to the slippery slope of terrible wars.

 

[habilis]

(...)habilis, you get far too hung up on using political groupings(...)

That's a typical defense mechanism of the left when they start losing an argument, an act of desperation I've heard many times. It's simple bloke, when you can't win idealogically, ATTACK the opponents character. It was the basis for the ENTIRE Kerry campaign and here it is in a microcosm. You're damn right, I don't debate the rationale of a terrorist, I don't accept their premise like you do. Terrorists need to be KILLED, not debated! You don't want me to point you out for what you really are and I understand that, I don't blame you. You guys get LOST in THE MIDDLE - still trying to please consensus(Remember the FEELING you got when Kerry said "I'll hunt down and KILL the terrorists wherever I find them."). Strap those Ullyssean binds tighter to the mast of the ship of academic mainstream my man. Don't let the cries of the creative get to you, your a man of the people, after all.

While the left gets lost in the negativity feedback loop, Neoconservatism makes reality simple so we can transform what you can't. Interested readers can look back in this thread to see plain evidence that the modern left is a bankrupt and impotent institution. An Orwellian vestigal organ.

Let me break it down and reiterate; You're biggest HERO'S are terrorists. Just go with it and be real. You stand for the terrorists and embrace their ideology, plain and fucking simple. It's high time you were called on the carpet for it. That's what I do, I don't "debate" it.

Ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts and prepare for the long term positive transformation of the ME. Not to be confused with something that is easy or without great peril, suffering, and death.

It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it.

 

[Satcomer]

well, Israeli's army is killing also many innocent people with their bomb, and i don't see a real difference between dropping the bomb from a plane or a tank and taking it by foot... and making a people die of hunger building a wall that prevent that people going to work is even worse that saying that a country doesn't exist, is making it disappear...

I will take your statement and then ask a question. Why didn't Arafat or other Arab leaders form a way for Palestinians to make a living other that working for Israelis? I thought most Palestinians wanted nothing to do with anything from Israel or a Jew. So why were they working for them? Was it because Arafat could not because he was an ineffective leader?

 

[pds]

I take issue with this statement! So you hate me because I am American? Your stereotype is way off base! When you walk in my shoes or live for a while in America then you will see we are no different than you are. Your reasoning would lead Americans to think all Europeans anti-Semitic (which I do not think) or all Canadians are pot-smoking alcoholics (which they are not). That kind of thinking will lead to hatred and hatred leads to the slippery slope of terrible wars.

Satcomer, it is not my stereotype. It is the one that people here use and habiis stepped into the same trap. To hate you because you are American would be to hate myself as I am too. And I kinda dig myself.

Sorry if the post was unclear. Even Cat didn't call Israel evil, but highlighted that some of her actions are less than peaceful, less than magnanimous. And as to self-centered, I stand by it with the accent on the fact that all people are, that's mankind's problem.

You are 100% right - it leads to the precipitous slippery slope, stereotypes on all sides. It is what has lead us to the situation we are in now.

 

[pds]

I will take your statement and then ask a question. Why didn't Arafat or other Arab leaders form a way for Palestinians to make a living other that working for Israelis? I thought most Palestinians wanted nothing to do with anything from Israel or a Jew. So why were they working for them? Was it because Arafat could not because he was an ineffective leader?

Yup.

And because the United States poured more money per week into Israel than the Soviet Union poured into Cuba.

And because most Palestinians are not the rabid terrorists that they are made out to be. (97% literacy ain't to shabby)

Many Palestinians (well some) are Israeli citizens btw. The polarization is a tragic result of failed leadership on both sides.

 

[Tetano]

I will take your statement and then ask a question. Why didn't Arafat or other Arab leaders form a way for Palestinians to make a living other that working for Israelis? I thought most Palestinians wanted nothing to do with anything from Israel or a Jew. So why were they working for them? Was it because Arafat could not because he was an ineffective leader?

I think that Arafat was like Che Guevara, a great leader when the need is to fight, but not a great leader when you ahave to do the next step and rule a country... too many errors in his decision, when the situation was good for his people, since in Israel there were 'better' (please note the '' !!!) government...
By the way, i think both the majority Palestinians and Israelis want peace, want to live without the fear of a bomb exploding at the bus stop or fired against them by a tank... they want a job to take some money home for their children, they want just to have a normal life, like everyone of us....

and habilis, i'm Communist, but my hero is not someone who kills innocent people, but someone fight for a improvement in their living conditions... Bin Laden is a murderer, but what about someone who fires an intelligent bomb directly in a car with a 12 years old and 14 years old students?

 

[bbloke]

That's a typical defense mechanism of the left when they start losing an argument,

Eh? How many times do you have to be told I'm not aligning myself with one group and how many times do I have to point out you are not addressing any facts?

To win an argument, it's not enough to put your fingers in your ears, pretend you can't hear anyone, and say everyone else is just plain wrong.

when you can't win idealogically, ATTACK the opponents character.

Again, I genuinely wish you'd address the facts, as I honestly would like to better understand your position and how you justify what has been going on. But if you simply keep saying "you're wrong" and do not explain why, with facts, then nobody benefits. I did not attack your character, I commented on what you were doing after trying (unsuccessfully, thus far) to debate the facts with you.

You're damn right, I don't debate the rationale of a terrorist, I don't accept their premise like you do.

Eh?

Terrorists need to be KILLED, not debated! You don't want me to point you out for what you really are and I understand that, I don't blame you.

Eh? And what, pray tell, am I then?

Neoconservatism makes reality simple so we can transform what you can't.

Makes reality simple? As in forces square pegs into round holes?

Interested readers can look back in this thread to see plain evidence that the modern left is a bankrupt and impotent institution.

What are you talking about? Who was claiming to represent the left here? And what evidence are you referring to? Either back up such statements or accept they will be discredited.

Let me break it down and reiterate; You're biggest HERO'S are terrorists. Just go with it and be real. You stand for the terrorists and embrace their ideology, plain and fucking simple.

Errr, no I don't. Where did that come from?!

It's high time you were called on the carpet for it. That's what I do, I don't "debate" it.

Indeed. You don't debate because you are unable to counter the evidence, so you resort to slandering people and going off on a tangent.

So, Bush makes Osama bin Laden his priority, then a few months later says bin Laden is not his priority anymore and he doesn't care where bin Laden is. Bush then talks about winning the war on terror and later says the war on terror can never be won. When are you going to look at events more honestly?

Ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts and prepare for the long term positive transformation of the ME. Not to be confused with something that is easy or without great peril, suffering, and death.

So, will you advocate killing everyone who disagrees with you? If so, we have a name for that: tyranny. If you wouldn't do this, then will you accept that people have to live together and that involves communication, even if you disagree with what they say or believe?

The point of much of what I have posted has been to illustrate the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the administration that you so strongly support. Furthermore, I find it ironic that you complained that some Palestinians see Jews as being subhuman, and yet you opened this thread by joking that the Palestinian leader was subhuman.

 

[habilis]

bloke I've already addressed your accusations that the Israeli's are worse then the Palestinians. You cite anecdotal evidence from supposed friends who saw things in supposed places. I challenge you to show me statistics of the percentage of schools in Israel that actively teach state sponsored hate, advocate violence, racism, and rewrite maps to show Israel doesn't exist versus those in the palestinian territories. You'll find the number to be around 0% Israel / 100% Palestinian.

I've already stated in this thread what I would do if I was a Palestinian; dismantle the hate groups and start asking Israel's forgiveness and beg for peace. The sickest thing a parent can do is make their personal pride more important then their children's life. The palestinians are actually proud to send their children to their death over this zealous pride - you don't see the Israeli's doing that. The dirty little truth here is that the Palestinians are happy pawns for all the other ME Islamofacists and the only reason they care so much about having all the Israeli land is because they hate Jews. If you don't believe this then you haven't been paying attention. Or maybe you choose to deny the existence of these facts because they don't fit your template.

In a recent report from David Kallaman:
"According to 58 new textbooks and two teachers' guides for grades 1, 2, 6, 7 and 11 published in the past two years by the Palestinian Authority, Israel does not exist -- nor does the concept of peace… Children are encouraged from the earliest school age to hate Israelis, glorify 'martyrs' and seek the 'liberation' of all of Palestine, including Israel.
Jews are openly refered to as "Donkeys" by Allah himself, which instills the idea that God himself hates Jews."

The sad truth about the Palestinian Authority and its schoolbooks is that they both embrace anti-Semitism, de-legitimize Israel’s existence and incite to hatred and violence as everyday normal stuff for kids to do. Children are taught that hating Jews is God’s choice, all the while Islam itself is not being critiqued. Instead of taking the chance to educate the children that peace is possible, and tolrance is a good thing – as the Israeli's have – the PA has brainwashed a whole generation into thinking violence and death is rewarded by their god. This is what you defend and I'm making sure everybody knows it. You can run, but you can't hide from the truth.

Kallaman also writes:
In the new PA 6th grade book “Reading the Koran”, anti-Semitism is presented openly, as children read about Allah’s warning to the Jews that because of their evil Allah will kill them: “...Oh you who are Jews ...long for death if you are truthful... for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you ...”In other sections they learn of Jews being expelled from their homes by Allah, and in another Jews are said to be like donkeys: “Those [Jews] who were charged with the Torah, but did not observe it, are like a donkey carrying books...”

What I'm addressing is this fact; I'm taking sides with Israel. I'm taking sides with America. I'm taking sides with tolerance and peace.

Now, answer this straight up bloke and the rest of the leftist club members – and don't cloud your answer:
1. Who's side are you taking? Israel or Palestine?

 

[pds]

Now, answer this straight up bloke and the rest of the leftist club members – and don't cloud your answer:
1. Who's side are you taking? Israel or Palestine?

With the obvious forestated caveat that I am not in the box you want me to stay in;

Will you call it clouding if I try to enumerate the various parts of the situation that I am casting an opinion for?

Rechtstadt? - Israel

Settlements? - Palestinians
(note that I won't take the bait, there is no Palestine and that's the problem)

Right of return? - Israel
(ie sorry- no return for the dispossessed)

Ownership of Jerusalem? - neither - make it a new country. Tourism will more than support the population.

Right to exist in a contiguous state with defensible borders? - both.
(there is of course a problem here as it is difficult to make Gaza and the West Bank contiguous while keeping Israel contiguous.)

Historical right to the land? .... (gee, look, that another problem with the "us or them" paradigm)
Short term? - Israel
(might does in fact make right - not in a moral sense as in right and wrong but in a political sense as is right to be)
Long term? - Palestinians.
These people lived there in the own culture for at least 1876 years (1948-72 when the temple was destroyed and the Jews expelled). (that is: I reject the idea that somehow the promise of a land in perpetuity written in a highly politicized text as the word of God has any bearing on the legitimacy of the state of Israel.)

Which side has the buried more of their loved ones? Palestinians (fact not opinion)

Over abuse of power (ie - who abuses it more)? -Israel

Greater number of illegal search and seizures? Israel

As inspiration to thousands of terrorists? - Israel
(ok - getting to the edge of the clouds here.)

shall I go on - or do you get the point? It is a complex situation and needs a subtle solution that IMO does not involve the army breaking things and killing people. It needs an honest broker as America has been in the past, but at present she has given herself over wholly to a government that is at least part of the problem.

For the distantly involved, they are details; for the people directly affected, they are the crucial questions of their existence, which is why I prefer popular government structures and support them. I'm sure you saw (and may have been revolted by) the President's funeral. He was their leader. He was their voice. He was their hero (not mine btw - you have no idea who my heros are). They are emotional, spontaneous people. They are an intelligent, patient people. Treat them with respect and they will bless you for it.

 

[habilis]

Short term? - Israel
(might does in fact make right - not in a moral sense as in right and wrong but in a political sense as is right to be)

I like it.

Long term? - Palestinians.
These people lived there in the own culture for at least 1876 years

Yes, it's true, but all is fair in love an war. How long were the native American Indians living here before we won the land? Close to 10,000 years or so. And if you believe this sort of thing, then the indians have stolen Neaderthal and Cro-Magnon land(not to mention, hunted them to total extention - AHHEM). I don't accept the premise that I'm living on stolen ground. If the Indians want it back - come and get it. It was conquered and annexed fair and square. For me, there's no good reason that the Israeli's should give that land back. They won it fair and square. The Arabs can't let go of the hate, that's their reason for wanting it so bad.

Update: I just learned the reason why Arafat was sent to France to die - in France, no cause of death is required to be released. Therefore the Arabs could hide whatever illness Arafat died from, which is probably something like Parkinsons that would make arafat look weak. Pride will be the death of them.

 

[bbloke]

bloke I've already addressed your accusations that the Israeli's are worse then the Palestinians.

Nice try...

First of all, you either deliberately or else negligently misquote me. I have never stated that the Israelis were "worse" than the Palestinians (or vice versa).

Secondly, you have once more completely ignored the facts I have presented and sidestepped the issues I was referring to (eg. hypocrisy in the Bush administration, the invasion of Iraq, and more). Reference to the situation in Israel and Palestine was a relatively small part of my discussion with you, and in answer to something you later raised when once more avoiding addressing my concerns.

As I have pointed out several times that you have been avoiding addressing the evidence thus far, I can only conclude that you really, truly have no answers and cannot counter what was written. My replies were written to refute what you said about isolationists during World War II, and to present information concerning the Bush administration, the invasion of Iraq, and "The War Against Terror." I only mentioned the Israeli/Palestinian question briefly when you raised the subject while trying to dodge what I raised. But, then, it must be quite hard to, for instance, explain how Bush and his administration could contradict themselves within months, simply depending on what politically suited them at the time.

You cite anecdotal evidence from supposed friends

"Anecdotal evidence?" After the extensive facts and figures I have provided and referred to more than once? That's extremely selective of you...

"Supposed?" That's rather unnecessary. Unless you are calling me a liar. In which case, do it outright, while also somehow showing me how my previous posts were filled with lies, and not actually filled with quotations/statistics that are readily available for all to see...

Oh, and by the way, you might be interested to know the friend who visited the area was one of the most conservative people I have ever met in the UK, very much a complete Conservative (with a capital "c") through and through.

who saw things in supposed places. I challenge you to show me statistics

lol

That's a bit rich coming from someone who has utterly sidestepped two posts filled with evidence, complete with references...

But, anyway, read on...

of the percentage of schools in Israel that actively teach state sponsored hate, advocate violence, racism, and rewrite maps to show Israel doesn't exist versus those in the palestinian territories. You'll find the number to be around 0% Israel / 100% Palestinian.

"Do as I say, not as I do?"

Show me the evidence for such an allegation. And then see below.

I've already stated in this thread what I would do if I was a Palestinian; dismantle the hate groups and start asking Israel's forgiveness and beg for peace.

And is it realistic to expect a group that has been oppressed for years to unreservedly apologize and beg for mercy, rather than fighting back when they feel they having nothing left to lose? Have you not learned from history? How about the general lessons learned from the harsh treatment of the Weimar republic by the Allies after World War I, which led to the ripe conditions for something much worse to come along later... ? People need to be treated with respect, not humiliated and treated like caged animals. Otherwise, they will lash out eventually, it is only a matter of time.

Judging by the way you have reacted so far, I find it hard to believe you would in fact act as you say if you were a Palestinian. You have not accepted one bit of "the other side of the story" about your own country despite the evidence (once again: no country is perfect, I am not saying America is a terrible place; I am focusing on America because you, habilis, are trying to claim moral high ground which I believe is without strong justification) and have, instead, reacted defensively and effectively said you believe "might makes right." How is a strong, national feeling based on "might" so very different from what we have been seeing in the Middle East? Such attitudes only serve to exacerbate the problems, not solve anything.

I can’t help wondering how you’d react if the UN were to carve up the USA and give a large chunk to a specific group (eg. Native Americans, the Spanish, the French, or whoever), particularly if it was where you lived. Would you happily accept that the territory was lost “fair and square?” Or would you react angrily and fight back? If you fought back, would you eventually stop and effectively beg for forgiveness for your actions, apologizing and seeking peace, completely accepting the current situation? I would find it very hard to believe, judging from the way you have reacted in this thread, and, if you wouldn’t comply in this way, I think you have no right to demand others to act in such a way that you would not act yourself.

Or maybe you choose to deny the existence of these facts because they don't fit your template.

lol

Have you heard of the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black?"

http://www.goenglish.com/ThePotCallingTheKettleBlack.asp

In a recent report from David Kallaman:
"According to 58 new textbooks and two teachers' guides for grades 1, 2, 6, 7 and 11 published in the past two years by the Palestinian Authority, Israel does not exist -- nor does the concept of peace… Children are encouraged from the earliest school age to hate Israelis, glorify 'martyrs' and seek the 'liberation' of all of Palestine, including Israel.
Jews are openly refered to as "Donkeys" by Allah himself, which instills the idea that God himself hates Jews."

The sad truth about the Palestinian Authority and its schoolbooks is that they both embrace anti-Semitism, de-legitimize Israel’s existence and incite to hatred and violence as everyday normal stuff for kids to do. Children are taught that hating Jews is God’s choice, all the while Islam itself is not being critiqued. Instead of taking the chance to educate the children that peace is possible, and tolrance is a good thing – as the Israeli's have – the PA has brainwashed a whole generation into thinking violence and death is rewarded by their god. This is what you defend and I'm making sure everybody knows it. You can run, but you can't hide from the truth.

Kallaman also writes:
In the new PA 6th grade book “Reading the Koran”, anti-Semitism is presented openly, as children read about Allah’s warning to the Jews that because of their evil Allah will kill them: “...Oh you who are Jews ...long for death if you are truthful... for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you ...”In other sections they learn of Jews being expelled from their homes by Allah, and in another Jews are said to be like donkeys: “Those [Jews] who were charged with the Torah, but did not observe it, are like a donkey carrying books...”

Right, where to start.....

Yet again you try to put words in my mouth (saying what I "defend") because you cannot counter what I have actually written.

While you emphasize that Palestinians are told to fight against the Israelis because it is God's Will, how is this very different to Israelis believing they have a divine right to the land around them and that they are God's chosen people? If you have two groups believing they alone have a divine mandate, things become very tricky indeed and stating one side alone is the source of all the problems is naive in the extreme. Now, if Palestinian textbooks genuinely have at any stage attempted to indoctrinate Palestinian schoolchildren with thoughts of anti-Semitism and violence, I would not condone that, I would condemn it. However, before going down that road, I think you should also see the other evidence too:



"Parallel to this process, allegations of anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish bias and incitement contained in Palestinian textbooks were made, directly or indirectly based on documentation prepared by the CMIP (Centre for Monitoring the Impact on Peace). CMIP based those claims on specific quotations from these books inciting anti-Semitism and urging the destruction of Israel. "

"1.- Quotations attributed by earlier CMIP reports to the Palestinian textbooks are not found in the new Palestinian Authority schoolbooks funded by some EU Member States; some were traced to the old Egyptian and Jordanian text books that they are replacing, some to other books outside the school curriculum, and others not traced at all. While many of the quotations attributed to the new textbooks by the most recent CMIP report of November 2001 could be confirmed, these have been found to be often badly translated or quoted out of context, thus suggesting an anti-Jewish incitement that the books do not contain.

2.- New textbooks, though not perfect, are free of inciteful content and improve the previous textbooks, constituting a valuable contribution to the education of young Palestinians. Palestinian Authority Ministry of Education has accepted the need for ongoing review, revision and improvement. "

"EU missions on the ground will keep the issue under review and assist in the task of monitoring the content of Palestinian Authority textbooks as they are published. In the framework of the UNESCO Executive Board Resolution of June 2001, Israeli and PLO representatives agreed to undertake a joint review of Israeli and Palestinian textbooks. "

http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/mepp/faq/heads_ mission_schoolbooks.pdf



"Dr. Brown’s report concludes CMIP's accusations are "often wildly exaggerated or inaccurate" and the sources "misleading and tendentious." He does assert, “the Palestinian curriculum is not a war time curriculum. While highly nationalist, it does not incite hatred, violence and anti-Semitism. It cannot be described as a peace curriculum either.” Nationalism, whatever its drawbacks, underpins almost every country’s school textbooks, not least in the US and Israel. Are we to label as racist or inciting when we say ‘God Bless America, instead of saying, perhaps, “God Bless the World”?"

"ADL’s accusations are probably based on an Israeli Army ‘study” published in a Haaretz. [3] Example of PA’s “hate-teaching” include the use of maps that do not show Israel's borders, the allegation that Israeli changed the names of formerly Arab towns, the contention that many Arabs were forcibly displaced in 1948, and even the suggestion that there were centers of Palestinian population in Palestine before 1948! All these concrete claims however are widely acknowledged to be true even by Israel historians such as Meron Benvenisti and Ilan Pape."

"Another example is the Palestinians’ “failure” to show Israel's borders. This does not really constitute a claim to all of Palestine (Brown argues that the textbooks are simply evasive to avoid controversy); and where official claims are made, for instance by the PA, they have explicitly recognized Israel for more than a decade. The Israeli government has of course made no such parallel recognition of a Palestinian state nor has it ever defined its borders. The official map of Israel includes the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the Golan heights- areas that Israel’s sovereignty was never recognized by any country including the United States and the United Nations."

"Since Mr. Goldstein has engaged in an analysis of educational materials, he would do well to examine depictions of Arabs in Israeli textbooks. According to recent academic study by Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University and surveys Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, portray Palestinians and Arabs as "murderers," "rioters," "suspicious," and generally backward and unproductive. As Maureen Meehan writes, outright delegitimization of Arabs is the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks. Her assessment is based on a report by Dr. Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University, who studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship.[4] He concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in “a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.” He concluded:"The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, and unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as 'robbers,' 'bloodthirsty,' and 'killers.'" Professor Bar-Tal also notes that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years. Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of "improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of." Our message to ADL is look at the Israeli textbooks first!"

http://www.adcnj.us/Reply-ADL PR-on-Pale-textbooks-11-15-02.htm



Also see:

"One book does contain a poem praising the children who threw stones in the first intifada, but at the same time praises Gandhi at some length for non-violence."

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/takpoints/report_on_palestinian_textbooks_.htm




"This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: “unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic.” Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were “tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored” and “they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed.”"

"“Our books basically tell us that everything the Jews do is fine and legitimate and Arabs are wrong and violent and are trying to exterminate us,” said Daniel Banvolegyi, a 17-year-old high school student in Jerusalem."

"“One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw,” said Banvolegyi. “Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers’ attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs.”"

"Seventy five percent of the children described the “Arab” as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine"

"Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children’s books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:

Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc."

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html




SO... A Professor (in Israel, no less) has cited Israeli depictions of Arabs and Palestinians as "robbers," "murderers," "bloodthirsty," "inferior," "dirty," "unenlightened," "noisy," and "colored." And over 50% of the children’s books referred to Palestinians as actually “evil.” And an Israeli student has said he wanted to punch the first Arab he saw, after something he heard/read from school. 75% of Israeli children described Arabs as being murderers, kidnappers of children, criminals, and terrorists and 80% saw them as someone who is dirty and with a terrifying face.

You wanted statistics, now you have them.

You refer to close to “0%” (a completely unsubstantiated figure that you created) of Israeli schools teaching such hatred and again the facts simply do not correlate with what you say. Also, imagine I’d that if 75% of Western children felt this way about the Jewish population, we'd be (rightfully!) outraged by such disgusting anti-Semitism! So why should it be acceptable treatment of Arabs and Palestinians?


Textbooks... Nice example, habilis.

Still maintain that Israelis would never indoctrinate their youth?

What I'm addressing is this fact; I'm taking sides with Israel. I'm taking sides with America. I'm taking sides with tolerance and peace.

"Addressing:" OK, you've skipped over everything else and tried to move on to what you want to discuss, hoping I won't notice you've avoided answering my previous points. Also, saying you side with tolerance and peace does not necessarily follow on from everything that you wrote thus far...

Now, answer this straight up bloke and the rest of the leftist club members

Oh please. Stop trying to pigeon hole those who disagree with you, as it is a very immature way of dealing with things, trying to dismiss arguments by forcing people into (often incorrect) categories, because it makes it easier for you to stop thinking about what they have said. But, then, I guess life is easier for you to deal with when everything is in black and white, "us and them," in every situation.

– and don't cloud your answer:

Yes, never let the facts get in the way of your argument.

1. Who's side are you taking? Israel or Palestine?

In truth: I side with neither outright. I know you like to think in terms of binaries, but I think both have reasonable claims and both sides are also guilty of atrocities. In the meantime, we have people suffering on both sides. Therefore, it is better to try to find a settlement that both can agree to in the long run, and that means concessions from both sides. Trying to batter one side into submission and demanding unreserved grovelling is simply unrealistic and will not solve anything at all in the long run. I completely agree with pds: it is a complex problem and violence to “sort things out” (ha!) will just make things worse. Peace processes are the way forward, and that means communication, education, combatting prejudices, and honest self-appraisal, not violence. That goes for both sides.

Now, I am not going to let you off the hook. You continually dodge answering questions about the Bush administration, the invasion of Iraq, and “The War Against Terror.” I have promptly and honestly given you my views on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, even though you are trying to pigeon hole me and divert the previous discussion. I would ask you, in fairness, to address what I had asked of you (and asked you first), in return.

 

[habilis]

So, Bush makes Osama bin Laden his priority, then a few months later says bin Laden is not his priority anymore and he doesn't care where bin Laden is. Bush then talks about winning the war on terror and later says the war on terror can never be won. When are you going to look at events more honestly?

Actually I already did answer this by not answering it.

The only way forward is forward. In a war this dynamic and everchanging, so too must we change with it. Priorities change in a war. Mistakes are often made and lessons are learned from them. While many want to look back, now with perfect hindsight, Others are looking forward at the end result; freedom in Afghanistan, freedom for millions in Iraq, fall of the Taliban, women and men voting in a democratic society, realistic long term reduction of terrorism and anti-americanism.

Of course these advances are still in the rough, everybody knows it.

Before I answer to the Palestinians, I wanted to know if you think America is the worlds biggest terrorist?

 

[pds]

wtf!

answered by not answering - means your mind's made up and you don't want to be confused by the facts?

It is hard to talk to you when you keep changing the subject. I have never said that the effort in Afghanistan was in any way flawed - and have objected to the Iraq situation only on the basis of interfering with sovereigty.

But the discussion is about Palestine. It is a different kettle of fish. The problem in Palestine is one of invasion and occupation. Granted, it is in response to criminal acts, but it is still invasion and occupation. The thing is we like the invader and have keyholed the invaded with the worst kind of stereotypes. It is time to take a fresh look.

OK - you want to ignore the past. Let's look at the present. Interestingly - Israel refuses (so far and in principle) to allow residents of Arab East Jerusalem to vote in the upcoming elections. What is going on? They are Palestinians and they voted in the last election. Why exclude them this time? Simple - it adds to the famous "facts on the ground". You watch. Afterwards Israel will use it to prove that Palestinians have no right to the historical lands of East Jerusalem because the people didn't even vote in the last election! :-\

This is the pattern that Israel has followed for most of its history. It _takes_ land within the Palestinian territory, builds settlements and then says - "Look - this is part of Israel proper." It then claims - "We have to be there to protect our citizens."

Let's put it in terms you may understand. If all of a sudden a group of Mexicans bought up around 1,000 acres of Texas and built houses and businesses and then declared that the sovereignty they would adhere to was Mexican, not American, what would you do? What if then the Mexican miitary decided to patrol the highway between Matamoros and the "settlement" and wouldn't let people with family on the road travel by it. Then what?

In truth, that is not what happened, the analogy is more like Americans bought up Acapulco and controled the highway from Houston to the Pacific, the strong imposing on the weak.

It is wrong. Might may make right, but the result is not _right_ and the wrongs must be addressed.

(btw - It was not surprising that you completely misinterpreted the point of my direct answer to your earlier question. Your mind is made up - you refuse to consider facts outside of your paradigm (or worse - assiduously twist them to your own orthodoxy) and so it would seem that this discussion with you is pointless. Still, the situation is vital to the long term prospects of human prosperity and I can only hope that the people who decide policy are more open to revising their strategies than you are. - omg they're probably not!)

Sure we can stick our heads in the sand - not learn from our own history - and stick the ugly Palestinians on the reservation and the problem may even go away. But we will be less for having done so.

Let us rise up to the best that mankind can be - not sink to the savage discredited law of the jungle.

 

[bbloke]

Actually I already did answer this by not answering it.

answered by not answering - means your mind's made up and you don't want to be confused by the facts?

It is hard to talk to you when you keep changing the subject.

(btw - It was not surprising that you completely misinterpreted the point of my direct answer to your earlier question. Your mind is made up - you refuse to consider facts outside of your paradigm (or worse - assiduously twist them to your own orthodoxy) and so it would seem that this discussion with you is pointless.

Sure we can stick our heads in the sand - not learn from our own history - ... But we will be less for having done so.

Let us rise up to the best that mankind can be - not sink to the savage discredited law of the jungle.

All very well put, pds.

habilis, there is little point in us "discussing things with you" (in actual fact: a one way process) if you won't be open to accepting new ideas, won't address what has been put to you, and twist what has been posted. Like pds says, I can only hope that the politicians you support do not have the same mentality, or else the world is really in trouble.

 

[habilis]

answered by not answering - means your mind's made up and you don't want to be confused by the facts?

Or it means I already answered. The answer should have been self-explanatory if you were paying attention to what I said about getting lost in the details. Bloke you're still lost. The end results are all that matter. Time will pass, and history will show very simply who brought freedom to the ME; A courageous leader who didn't sell out, and didn't back down from hatemongering murderers.

Bloke if I were you I would be scared shitless that this might actually happen, that the right, might actually be right. It's a strange position you're in to be hoping for America to falter and fail so you can prove your point. Bad news for America and our soldiers = Great news for you doesn't it? and good news for America and it's war on terror = bad news for you. I wouldn't want to be there sitting next to the terrorists even if is just a proxy relationship.

Are you guys still trying to push the "No blood for Oil" charge? Look at the news today, look at who really sold their souls for oil, look at the crumbling institution of the UN. Kofi Annan is shamelessly covering it all up, sandbagging access to the documents related to the corrupt Oil for Food program. Should we call it Oilgate?

Give me a credible working concept any day. I love new ideas, they are the lifeblood of capitalism, one of my favorite things.

As for Israel/Palestine, you guys on the left had your chance. Arafat was the most frequent foreign visitor to the Clinton Whitehouse(besides Monica) and what results do they have to show besides escalating the violence? Zilch. Although they can take credit for cutting and running in Somalia, bombing an asprin factory in Iraq, letting bin Lauden slip right through their hands when Soudan was trying to give him away, getting attacked by terrorists time and time again(Twin Tower bombing, USS Cole, Khobar Towers, etc.) and being derelict in persuing them - in effect emboldening terrorists to attack again which they did on 9/11. Thanks Bill. Anyway I'm sorry to digress but these are all important brush strokes in the big picture that is still being ignored.

Bloke, I credit you in digging up a great refutation of the Palestinian/Israeli indoctrination argument. On the other hand, they're may indeed be a deluge of indoctrination, but until the Arabs stop murdering children in the name of God to make a point, they're the ones who are actually believing it.

You can have the last word my friends.

 

[g/re/p]

Let's put it in terms you may understand. If all of a sudden a group of Mexicans bought up around 1,000 acres of Texas and built houses and businesses and then declared that the sovereignty they would adhere to was Mexican, not American, what would you do?

Lets just say they would soon be advised of thier options - lol!

What if then the Mexican miitary decided to patrol the highway between Matamoros and the "settlement" and wouldn't let people with family on the road travel by it. Then what?

If the patrol included the US side of the border, they would be
ordered to stop, return to mexico, and stay there - if they refused, they would be "dealt with."