Attention Mac Pirates...

serpicolugnut

serpicolugnut

OS X Supreme Being
For those who think that pirating an application isn't stealing and doesn't hurt the platform, look no further than the recent killing of Premiere for the Mac by Adobe. Sure, FCP is a better product - but it only got that way by having a healthy competitor in Adobe Premiere.

Now, Mac users are left with just Final Cut Pro. Do you really believe Apple will feel just as compelled to be innovative with a user base that has no other options? I would like to think so, but I'm not quite that naive.

And for those who keep saying "Who cares? So long as Adobe keeps making Photoshop for the Mac, I'm good", listen to this statement from the Premiere team leader...

David Trescot, senior director of Adobe's digital video products group, said the new edition of Premiere is a complete rewrite of the application and it didn't make financial sense to support the Mac anymore.

"We were rewriting Premiere from scratch, and it would have taken a lot of work to have cross-platform support," Trescot said.
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It is estimated that Mac Premiere sales were between 10-20% of the total sales of the product. The last numbers I had seen for Adobes total sales breakdown by platform were 73% Wintel, 27% Mac. Let's say that figure drops to 19% Mac. Still think it's a stretch for Adobe to kill off some of it's other key Mac applications (Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign, After Effects, etc.)

Consider this next time you fire up that pirated copy of Illustrator and Photoshop, and how the next releases of these applications might be the last for the Mac if sales figures don't improve.

I'm not trying to be a chicken little and claim the sky is falling, but there is cause for concern.

BTW - I predict that Adobe will next announce that Live Motion 3 will be PC only.
 
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Now, Mac users are left with just Final Cut Pro. Do you really believe Apple will feel just as compelled to be innovative with a user base that has no other options? I would like to think so, but I'm not quite that naive.
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I think Apple are now actually more likely to try and make FCP better than Premier (and infact any other similar software available on the PC). With Premier and FPC there were two reasons to consider the Mac platform. Now that FCP is the only option, Apple had better try and make it damn tempting so as to get people across to the Apple platform.


With regadrs to piracy - I'm not really sure why you feel piracy is to blame for this. Why blame the pirates? Adobe didn't seem to mention it as a problem. Is piracy more of a problem on the Mac than the PC?

I'm not saying piracy isn't a problem, I'm very anti-piracy, I just doubt it was the major cause for this and you don't seem to have presented any evidence to suggest that it is.
 
With regadrs to piracy - I'm not really sure why you feel piracy is to blame for this. Why blame the pirates? Adobe didn't seem to mention it as a problem. Is piracy more of a problem on the Mac than the PC?
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I should probably clarify my remarks...

I'm not saying that piracy was a factor in the decision to drop Premiere, mostly because since Apple has the better product, more people probably pirate it than Premiere on the Mac...

However, Photoshop is a heavily pirated Mac application. Many of these pirates actually make money with it, and are not the garden variety students who wouldn't end up paying for the software anyway (not that it makes them any less guilty). Since the Mac market is smaller, piracy's impact is felt much stronger here than in Windows land, where piracy is that much worse.

It's no longer a forgone conclusion that Adobe will release a Mac version of it's software. If sales figures don't justify it, and the engineering effort would be simplified by dropping the Mac, they will choose that road now, if it makes financial sense for them to do so...

So, the point I'm making is - How long will it be before disappointing Mac sales (affected by attrition and piracy) causes Adobe to drop Mac support for it's major Mac apps (PS, AI, ID, GL, AE)? Just the possibility of losing any of these apps is a serious concern for Mac users, and should be taken seriously.
 
I think the problem is not piracy... The problem is Adobe! It was easier for them instead of improve their crap apps on Mac where they have a worthy opponent in the face of Apple, to go more and more Windows oriented because they actually have no competition there...

Also, I think that the software piracy is actually more of Wintel platform based than anything else out there... :rolleyes:

Now, if only Apple would bring FCP and others to Windows... :p :D

Seriously though, I hope that with the G5, Adobe will reconsider their software strategy towards the Mac platform because I think that all those pro-Wintel apps or even worst only-Wintel apps, were created when Adobe felt that the G3/G4 based Apple had no future... Or at least a tiny one... ;)
 
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Photoshop is a heavily pirated Mac application. Many of these pirates actually make money with it.
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I don't, so I'll carry on reading something else. *flies away*

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
I think there is no reason to overreact! Adobe is with Apple for now! Them not supporting the Mac platform at the maximum is a big problem but we cannot do anything! Unless each one of us (the lonely :rolleyes: Mac user) can make 5 of our family/friends members to buy a Mac and an Adobe app! That way, all of a sudden the Apple & Adobe users will become more than 50 millions, easily :p :D
 
I think there is no reason to overreact! Adobe is with Apple for now! Them not supporting the Mac platform at the maximum is a big problem but we cannot do anything! Unless each one of us (the lonely Mac user) can make 5 of our family/friends member to buy a new Mac and 1 Adobe app!
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Well, if you don't know anybody who's pirating Adobe (or anyone else's) software, there isn't much you can do. But if you do, give them a hard time about it and guilt them in to getting legal. If you've been using a pirated copy, get legal.

Most of the time you can buy a previous version off of eBay quite cheaply. Although Adobe isn't happy about this practice, with a simple form, you can transfer ownership of the application and then upgrade to the newest version for half of what the new version costs. It's perfectly legal and gets you legal for less.
 
Oh come on, while i do not advocate piracy, adobe photoshop was pirated on the mac before it was ever made on the pc. When Adobe Photoshop 3 was released people traded it back and forth.

While marketshare for the Apple platform is not sky high I think it was foolish to pull the plug on premiere. Sales are important to a company but obviously Adobe could of rewritten premiere when the rest of Mac OS X applications were being released. Heck, they could have rewritten Photoshop and Illustrator.

Did they consider the G5 release?
 
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
For those who think that pirating an application isn't stealing and doesn't hurt the platform, look no further than the recent killing of Premiere for the Mac by Adobe. Sure, FCP is a better product - but it only got that way by having a healthy competitor in Adobe Premiere.

Now, Mac users are left with just Final Cut Pro. Do you really believe Apple will feel just as compelled to be innovative with a user base that has no other options? I would like to think so, but I'm not quite that naive.
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Not to be Rude But Premiere Sucked. It was a horrible application and I do not know of an editor (professional editor) who was using it. It was buggy clunky and slow. The fact that Adobe is not keeping it on the Mac platform has little to do with piracy but more to do with the fact that FCP and I movie are better products.

Now as for your statement about FCP being the only editing program for the Mac I am sorry to inform you but you are very wrong. Avid has released Express DV. It is about $500 more than FCP but it is an extremely great product.

I know a few that have switched from FCP to Avid. I personally do not see the need. But I will say this avid made one great product and it works very well. I even have used it for a few projects. I still like FCP better.

I think your worries have a lot of merit but not when it comes to premiere. If Adobe was killing After Effects then I would be the first one to be agreeing with you.
 
Not to be Rude But Premiere Sucked. It was a horrible application and I do not know of an editor (professional editor) who was using it.
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Premiere has seen better days, but in 1998, it was the only sub-$1000 game in town (except for Strata, then Avid Video Pro). While not the most elegant program, it worked quite well. I completed several CD-ROM and Multimedia kiosk projects in it, and it was more than adequate.

Flash forward to 2003. Premiere 6.5 (the last Mac version), while not a stellar product, did force Apple to further innovate Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro's new LiveType feature is a direct response to Premieres Title Designer.

Now as for your statement about FCP being the only editing program for the Mac I am sorry to inform you but you are very wrong. Avid has released Express DV. It is about $500 more than FCP but it is an extremely great product.
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I should have qualified that statement with the sub-$1000 category. Express DV is a nice product, but it's price tag puts it out of the Premiere/FCP war.

I think your worries have a lot of merit but not when it comes to premiere. If Adobe was killing After Effects then I would be the first one to be agreeing with you.
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Well chew on this: Final Cut Pro has some compositing features that put it in competition with After Effects. Lets say Apple develops this further, or even better, makes a low cost version of Shake. Do you think Adobe will keep After Effects around for the Mac then?
 
think that the software piracy is actually more of Wintel platform based than anything else out there
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Absolutely. And I agreed with the comments about Premiere sucking.
Adobe gets get a big chunk of $$$ from design/publishing businesses that run the gamut of Adobe products off of Mac platforms. They'll not shoot that golden goose. Besides, Adobe is thinking of making its next registration online

http://www.crn.com/sections/BreakingNews/dailyarchives.asp?ArticleID=43061

And an update to After Effects

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030707/65011_1.html
 
I am going to have to respectfully and completely disagree with this notion.

I do not believe that Pirating had anything to do with the Premiere/FCP situation. That is the point of this thread, so that's the premise I'm working from.

Here is why Premiere is Windows only...FCP 1.0 was a vastly superior app and Mac-only. All versions of Premiere up to 6.0 were still inferior even to FCP 1.0. The migration of Premiere users on the Mac platform to FCP was huge and complete. There are virtually no professional users of Premiere on the Mac. If you can find one, let me know.

To develop Premiere for the Mac would have been a total waste of time and money for Adobe. As we all know, Mac users are violently loyal, and with Apple developing FCP, and developing it very well, there is virtually no hope for any other Mac video editing app in that price range.

Pirating had nothing to do with it.

As for other apps from Adobe. As long as they will sell on the Mac, they will be developed. Livemotion will indeed be Mac-ready. I have no proof of this, but I am simply making an educated guess. The only other Flash development tool is Flash itself. They are two very different programs (we use both here at Mindbend). Livemotion 3 would sell well on the Mac platform and thusly will be developed for it.

As for Dave Trescot's comment, that was for a specific app, which as I stated above, would have been profitless on the Mac. Photoshop will be very profitable on the Mac for a long time, as will After Effects, Livemotion, Indesign and so on. Encore would not be profitable given DVD Studio Pro and iDVD.

I am not worried at all.

However, on the piracy thing, it is definitely worth repeating that, in general, we as Mac users really owe it to the developers to actually pay for the software. Serp's point is correct that our piracy REALLY hurts our future in ways beyond what the Wintel piracy might do.

As for FCP on Windows. Forget it. It will never happen. FCP is a big reason to buy a Mac, and as we all know, Apple is a hardware company first and foremost. An iPod is not enough reason to buy a Mac, FCP is.
 
Lately, I had the chance to go to a series of Seminars called Video-Maker. It seems the semi-pro and even professional filmakers are now using Final Cut Pro to edit their movies and shows. And, with a new free plug-in, Final Cut Pro will have the ability to export it's files to XML, which is quickly becoming the standard for other companies project and video files. Soon, you'll be able to edit on FCP on your Mac, do a little export, and maybe do your final render or use compositing on a PC or whatever. The XML standard can go back and forth between all new video apps.

Apple is doing great things with FCP. Adobe is throwing in the towel, and giving up, rather than innovating and updating.
 
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Premiere has seen better days, but in 1998, it was the only sub-$1000 game in town (except for Strata, then Avid Video Pro). While not the most elegant program, it worked quite well. I completed several CD-ROM and Multimedia kiosk projects in it, and it was more than adequate.
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For it's time in 1998 yes it was a great product.

Flash forward to 2003. Premiere 6.5 (the last Mac version), while not a stellar product, did force Apple to further innovate Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro's new LiveType feature is a direct response to Premieres Title Designer.
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Here i would disagree with you. i think that it came more from the gripes of all the FCP customers that were sick and tired of using other apps for there titling like photoshop and flash. But i do agree that Premieres Title Designer was great.


I should have qualified that statement with the sub-$1000 category. Express DV is a nice product, but it's price tag puts it out of the Premiere/FCP war.
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No argument there


Well chew on this: Final Cut Pro has some compositing features that put it in competition with After Effects. Lets say Apple develops this further, or even better, makes a low cost version of Shake. Do you think Adobe will keep After Effects around for the Mac then?
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Well you do have some valid points but before i question. Have you ever used Shake??? I did once. All i can say is what a pain in the ass.

THere is no way IMHO that Shake can win out over After Effects. AE is entrenched in the world of SFX and post production. it would be like an other program beating out Photoshop. It would be next to impossible. if at all.

I know for me i passed up Shake for AE. and i will continue to do so.
 
serpicolugnut,
when you are done preaching your holier than thou rhetoric, I hope you fall on your ass trying to get down off your soapbox.:D
 
Well you do have some valid points but before i question. Have you ever used Shake??? I did once. All i can say is what a pain in the ass.

THere is no way IMHO that Shake can win out over After Effects. AE is entrenched in the world of SFX and post production. it would be like an other program beating out Photoshop. It would be next to impossible. if at all.

I know for me i passed up Shake for AE. and i will continue to do so. [/B]
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Just a point about Shake vs. AE.
It really depends on what and where you are working.
I would never consider trying to do a 20 to 30 layer 2K composite in AE... at least not if I wanted to finish the shot this century.
Shake is optimized for large files (think film res) and the node based architecture makes it far more flexible than AE.
Shake is a high-end pro tool and while AE is often used for comps, it is Shake that most of the big studios are using now.
 
Originally posted by stizz
serpicolugnut,
when you are done preaching your holier than thou rhetoric, I hope you fall on your ass trying to get down off your soapbox.:D
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This is what a forum is for:(
 
Just a note on Live Motion 3 being PC only.....

I believe that Adobe disbanded the Live Motion team, and gave up on trying to beat Flash.

If they resurrect it, there may be a good chance of it being PC only, but last I heard - it was dead.

It's too bad, as I think it had potential.

And..... yes I worry about Mac market share. It needs to rise or we will be very quickly marginalized in this time of fiscal restraint.

Whether it be "actually buying" software or recommending Macs to other users, it all helps.
 
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