If you want 10.1 spoiled for you, read this!

Originally posted by stizz

Do any of you feel better now that you have chastised me?

Better yet, how the hell am I supposed to respond.
[...]
What was the title of this thread anyway . "A lynching for stizz" ?
"Persecute the heritic" ? "Anatomy of a Pirate 101" ?

NO

This thread is about 10.1 and experimentation with pre release builds. I would beg kindly that the petty BS stop now. If you don't like the content of this thread, then don't read it. There are plenty of other threads for you to read. If you do not like my attitude or my lack of moral fibre, please refrain from mentioning it. I will no longer respond to any provocation.

sigh

Now I'm too spent to report on my latest findings with 5f24. It would seem the facists in this thread have won this round.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Click to expand...

You know, I really don't mean to get personal. Stizz, I don't know you outside of this thread. You may be a real nice guy, I don't know. You seem intelligent. You almost come off like you really think what you do when you post about unreleased builds is 'a good thing', and in some sense I can respect that. I apologize for any personal attacks I may have made, and going forward I would like to keep the thread more 'informational' and less name-calling.

But If I am walking down the street and see a sign that says 'Watch people steal other people's property - Right This Way', you can be damn sure that some people that show up are not exactly there to encourage the scene.

As far as the purpose of my posts, they are not really to call you names and to make you mad. In the purest sense, they are simply a plea for you to think a bit more about what you are doing. Isn't it legitimate to have a debate about 'whether it is right or wrong to post information about illegally leaked builds of OS X'?

Don't we all really want the same thing - to make OS X great? I would also say that I want Apple to succeed, but that may not be part of everyone else's goal. I think that if Apple succeeds, then OS X has a better chance of sticking around. OS's can be 'great' but not last because of market issues. (Amiga et. al.)

I feel that this may be where we start to disagree. You talk about the virtues of talking openly about these builds of OS X. I'm suggesting that, though maybe good intentioned, it may not be the best thing to be doing for the sake of the ultimate goal.

Part of the issue is the effect on Developer Seedings. There is no doubt in my mind that the leaks have affected this. I'm a developer, and I can see that first hand. Info from Apple is getting tighter and tighter, and it makes it more difficult for me to develop my code. They claim it is because of leaks.

Now, that may be a lie, but seeing the way Jobs works, I can see how his mode is inherently secretive. I think that is probably a reaction to being in this business so long and having been burnt many times by the competition. He is doing what he thinks is the best way to compete - and I think we should allow him to do so, because he is our best shot.

Like I've said before, if someone thinks they have a better plan than Jobs', then speak up! But don't be afraid to debate it because someone might disagree with you. You might even say that is the spirit of 'open source' - let everyone look and see and comment and crack and fix and push and shove - and hopefully you get a better result in the end.
 
This is the last post i shall make in this thread regarding the tangent we seem to be off on.

If you want a debate about the morality involved here. By all means, start a thread about it. I may even join in the chaos that ensues.

Now I obviously feel compelled to justify myself. I am poor. I cannot afford to purchase every bit of software Job's has his team shit out twice a year. Would you all deprive me of my quest for knowledge? Or disallow me to share my wonderful findings in a thread aptly titled? Would you prefer that I try not to get an edge in this competitve market and bring some value to my team? Or would you rather I go find some other ways to spend my time. Perhaps I should go back into the food indusrty and slave away the rest of my life delivering pizzas or making pasta for spoiled rich kids. Hell, there is always the army, I hear they teach you how to actually kill people there.

Point is. I paid enough already for all my various Macs and extra hardware. I don't pretend to know better than Jobs. He is no angel either. I wonder how xerox feels about piracy. Do you recall Pirate flags flying from the masts at Apple not so very long ago? I do.

Now can we please move on from this subject? Start a new therad already, sheesh.

BTW I am a nice guy in real life.
 
Originally posted by stizz

Now I obviously feel compelled to justify myself. I am poor. I cannot afford to purchase every bit of software Job's has his team shit out twice a year. Would you all deprive me of my quest for knowledge? Or disallow me to share my wonderful findings in a thread aptly titled? Would you prefer that I try not to get an edge in this competitve market and bring some value to my team? Or would you rather I go find some other ways to spend my time.
[...]
Point is. I paid enough already for all my various Macs and extra hardware.
Click to expand...

Yes, let's talk about OS 10.1. Let's do it honorably. And let's do it with pride. Let's not stoop to the immoral, unethical bullshit that is Windows. Microsoft doesn't care about users and the user's experience. All they care about is dominance. With dominance comes subordination and a culture of greed and no-holds-barred warfare.

We should all tell Steve that we don't like paying for an OS that isn't stable. We shouldn't have to pay for bug fixes.

We are fine with paying for new features. But not ones that were already in OS 9.

We should tell him that we hate file extensions. Creators and types are a better way. They have been for 20 years and they always will be. File Exchange on OS 9 works pretty well. It could be better. Anything is better than an OS that forces me to name a file with a stupid extension that has no meaning or value to me. It's the antithesis of what is Macintosh.

We need to find ways to patch a system that doesn't use Traps. We need to be able to do that and not ask Apple's permission. Customization has been the hallmark of the Mac. It's why we love it, because it can become what we each need it to be.

We need new music applications. Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer? Where is the OMS Setup equivalent? Where's ASIO support? Where's the killer Sample waveform editor? I can't use OS 10.1 for making music. Not yet. Not until someone offers me the apps. Or I write them myself.

Why isn't there an AppleWorks lite suite bundled with all Macs? Doesn't AW come with iMacs? Then how come I don't get it when I pay $4000 for a top of the line Mac? I don't *want* to be dependent on the horrors that are MS Office.

Why doesn't drag and drop work on OS 10.1 work the way it does on OS 9? Why can't we drag from an inactive window to an active window?

Why do we have to ask our OS permission to write files into directories that we created while in OS 9? (which is still a requirement for more than 50% of the work I need to get done)

There's lots wrong with OS 10.1. We need to point those things out. We need to tell Apple what we want. And we need to find solutions.

Bring on the next release. It better be better than the last. It better fix the basic things like stable dial-ups and DSL/VPN support. The things that made us stick with Apple through thick and thin. An OS that doesn't get in our way, and truly feels like it is on our side. OS 9, for all its problems, still works more smoothly than OS 10.1. I don't want to feel embarrased to be a Mac fanatic. It could be, it can be the best of breed. And we all need to help make that happen. Soon. Because Win XP is coming, and OS X needs to kick it's sickly mind-numbing pretensious butt.
 
What you fail to realize, ten head, is that OS X IS NOT from the same blood as OS 9 and all previous MacOS !!!!!!

OS X is a descendant of a UNIX OS called NeXTSTEP. NeXTESTEP did NOT have all the features that you have in OS 9, it di not have file/creatro types it had extensions. Drag and Drop didnt necessarily work like OS 9 because NeXTSTEP predates OS 9

As for software, MacOS software was NOT writen in one night, or even 3 months span. It took a long long time for devs to deploy all the programs that are out there today and make the platform "popular", the same has to happen with OS X since IT IS NOT FORM THE SAME BLOOD AS OS 9.

OS X is only a MacOS in name and in the Fact that it runs on macs! IT is not name MacOS because it is a continuation of the MacOS 9 DNA.


Admiral
 
Originally posted by AdmiralAK
What you fail to realize, ten head, is that OS X IS NOT from the same blood as OS 9 and all previous MacOS !!!!!!
[...]
As for software, MacOS software was NOT writen in one night, or even 3 months span. It took a long long time for devs to deploy all the programs that are out there today and make the platform "popular", the same has to happen with OS X since IT IS NOT FORM THE SAME BLOOD AS OS 9.
Admiral
Click to expand...

Actually, I am painfully aware of the different 'blood' from which OS X comes. I'm very familiar with the Pascal based Mac Toolbox and programming in C Unix environments as well as Obj-C NextStep/Rhapsody/Yellow/Cocoa. I know why OS X is different, I just think it shouldn't be.

FWIW, what I was mostly trying to point out in the context of this thread was that there are plenty of things to discuss and work on within the released versions and public information about 10.1 that don't require talking about unreleased builds. Things that were broken in 10.0 and we know will still be broken in 10.1.

One of the points brought up in the thread was the impact of a lack of 10.1 Seeds going out to a broad base of developers. It seems that only Premier developers are getting them, and that leaves the rest to rely on bootleg versions. Some claims were made that Apple has cut back distribution of seeds because of bootlegging. If that's the case, that would be ironic.

Apple has not succeeded in getting enough developer support, especially early on. Developers have had plenty of time to develop apps, they just aren't highly motivated to put their efforts on the front-burner. It's largely a chicken-and-egg thing - developers don't see the demand for OS X native apps - and customers are waiting for apps before they upgrade.

This is where Apple has to step in. They have to inject some kind of motivation. Maybe they could help fund some startups like Stizz and get him working 'for' them instead of having him in the mode he currently finds he has to resort to. ;-)

Apple seems to to be somewhat schizophrenic about new application development. They talk about the 'open-ness' of Darwin and such, and how that is going to open up the world of Unix software to all the Mac users. Well, that's bullshit - existing Mac users don't want awk and sed and grep. They don't even want X Windows and GIMP. Those things are great for developers and Unix heads - but that is not the existing Mac marketplace. The whole Unix thing is mostly lost on existing Mac users - they just know that it has something to do with why the machine will hopefully crash less when they are running Cubase or PageMaker (once an OS X version is available for those important apps).

As far as customers are concerned, it doesn't matter that the OS is 'new' (even though Apple's been working on it for more than 5 years...) It has to compete with whatever else is already out there - excuses don't make any difference to the paying customer. They are going to put their money into the product that works now, not the one that may work next year or the year after.

Those Unix underpinnings seem really targeted at strategic shifts for Apple and its installed base. They seem to be setting their long range scopes on back-room installations. Servers and such for businesses, networking, and schools. But they don't seem to be putting enough focus on the current OS 9 user who is looking at how they might jump to X. It simply is not ready for existing users. Users expect the new system to do everything that OS 9 did and more.

Apple had this whole Public Beta thing, and easy access to early development kits for Students and others low-entry-cost developers. It seemed like they really were trying to jump-start the whole thing with a big spark. But now that the OS has shipped as 10.0, it seems they have pulled back significantly from their motivating efforts. They are appearently focusing on the Big Applications (as they must) but they can't forget the rest of the puzzle of small and medium sized use-cases that can be addressed by the small developer - if they are given the opportunity and a little bit of help.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about 10.1 and what it will be and what it won't be. Maybe the reasons 'why' are a topic for a different thread.
 
tenhead wrote - "Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer?"

Do you mean "Why hasn't someone written a sequencer that runs natively under MacOS X?". If so then it's probably because the MIDI specs only came out a short while ago. I know this doesn't help but it may answer your question.

(I hope that is what you meant because...)

However, if you really did mean "Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer?" then what you're really asking is "Why hasn't a company written a *new* sequencing program that only runs on MacOS X?"

Why on earth would a company that already has a MacOS 9 sequencer rewrite the entire application from the ground up using the Cocoa API? They wouldn't. They'd just carbonize what they've already got. Nothing wrong with that.

Everyone seems to be getting their knickers in a twist about the lack of Cocoa applications when there's really no need. Carbon based programs can easily be just as good as those written using the Cocoa API. Anyone writing a new, MacOSX only application using carbon wants their head examined but there's a whole bunch of stuff out there that just needs tweaking (maybe a bit more than tweeking in some cases) to run perfectly fine under X.

BTW, I'm disappointed that Steinberg have made no comment about an X version of Cubase.

Brad.
 
Originally posted by bradleysmith
tenhead wrote - "Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer?"

Do you mean "Why hasn't someone written a sequencer that runs natively under MacOS X?". If so then it's probably because the MIDI specs only came out a short while ago. I know this doesn't help but it may answer your question.
Click to expand...

The MidiServices were documented in the 10.0 release in March, and seed versions were available months before that. That's a good six months to port. Seems like a lot to me. I understand that companies can't necessarily put 100% of their resources on X immediately. It just seems typical problem for Apple - they develop the core technologies and then have to wait what seems like forever for developers to start using them.


However, if you really did mean "Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer?" then what you're really asking is "Why hasn't a company written a *new* sequencing program that only runs on MacOS X?"

Why on earth would a company that already has a MacOS 9 sequencer rewrite the entire application from the ground up using the Cocoa API? They wouldn't. They'd just carbonize what they've already got. Nothing wrong with that.
Click to expand...

I understand about the legacy code issue. But it seems that using Cocoa can accelerate development of new apps (granted Mac X only) and it seems that would be a perfect opportunity for new startups to get a head start and at least some special exposure if they were to beat the big guys out of the gate.

I'm thinking mostly of the Shareware/Freeware type of thing. I know it takes years to develop something like Performer/Cubase. But not everyone needs that kind of monster-application. There are a number of good shareware Sequencers available for OS 9, and tons of them for Win*. Similarly, a basic Wave Editor is not nearly as complicated as a sequencer and should be relatively straightforward to get going in Cocoa.

Apple has been filling in the Carbon support feverishly because they finally realized that they couldn't count on brand new Cocoa apps anytime soon (if ever - who wants to write obj-c, plus what happened to the Yellow Box for Windows?). So they are encouraging Carbon development. I'm not clear on what real advantages remain in Cocoa versus Carbon besides super cool GUI development, better memory management, better threads and messaging, better dynamic libraries, better maintanance model, better localization, better printing services... how much do they mean?

But yeah, at least Carbonize the dang things already!

[as I said in my last post, this stuff is getting way off topic for this thread and should probably be moved to a new thread - Where are the OS X Apps?]
 
I agree tenHead. We're off topic now.
I'll start a (nother) carbon and (as opposed to Vs) cocoa thread in an appropriate forum.

Brad
 
Now back to ruining the suprise of 10.1
to summarize:
Speach funtions werk very very well.
Gui is noticably faster. Although, I have managed to crash the system preferences app on more than 1 occasion. :(
Dock has undergone a few changes. Certian docklings no longer work. And you now have the option of choosing where you want your dock to be.
Apple has taken away the ability to put the trashcan on the desktop. (as far as i can tell)
The volume keys and monitor brightness keys on my powerbook work now. They display a little tranparent window on your screen. there is also a volume and network setting pull down menu in the menu bar.
Remote login werks well. Locked folders remained secure.
Web sharing werks well too. I configuered apache to host a test page off my powerbook.
No problems with ftp either. Fire runs nicely. The IE included seems sleeker, but is still crap.
Once I upgraded to 9.2, most classic apps ran very well. Including photoshop and golive cyber studio. i will try other apps soon, including sims and flash 5.
Offixe x preview left alot to be desired. Think office 2001, only 10 times buggier. Word crashed on its first run as soon as it opened. Then it worked decent. Excell has major screen refresh issues simialr to the ones present in IE that came with the Public Beta last year. The screen refresh bug is also apparent in this version of IE i'm using now. Other wise Office X looks just like 2001. Same layout , Icons,..everything.
Toast Titanium would not even install on my system. I believe this is because I installed this build on a unix formated drive. I'm not sure tho. regardless, I have yet been able to burn anything. The required drivers are not present for my burners.
I did find an update regarding reason. Propellerheads are (working) on it. We'll see.
till next time
 
I've just read all 5 pages and finally a post relating to the topic... Thank you Stizz.
Regarding the developers that use seeds, please check out macnn.com and go to the forums on OSX, there you will see non other than Andrew Welsh of Ambrosia software who posts on the 10.1 forums.
Stizz could you check out the samba implementation in 10.1 as its supposed to be seemless. Also I think were missing something because all my correspondence with "People in the know" smile when I talk about 10.1, its like there will be a big surprise come September 24th. We all know its fast, has more printer, CD drivers has native windows connectivity through samba, and supposedly has DVD burn/playback, but there is something else!
 
Wow. Spend a few days filing patents and negotiating deals in Iceland for DNA stuff and look at this...


I have neither the time nor the inclination to read every post above. However, one comment:

I actually remember a debate we had in law school re: piracy and its effects on any industry but, specifically the software industry. Turns out there is some data that shows piracy in some limited ways and in some limited circumstances helps the industry. I saw part of a post above saying they just try it out and buy the real version when it comes out. That's not really piracy... That's playing.

Take the computer industry as a whole (especially in Apple's case - software is tightly bound to hardware). There are many individuals that for whatever reason cannot afford the latest greatest software to run their businesses. Maybe they buy a pirated version. Turns out this happens in the places where piracy is most rampant for obvious reasons... But they DO put money in the hardware... Their business (hopefully) becomes more profitable and the need for buying pirated versions and all the headaches that come with them go away. They are now 'legal.'

We all know the world's not fair and there are haves and have-nots. I, and I think, most of you, are lucky enough to be a have. The have-nots need to trim corners where ever possible and remain profitable. The data shows that once these have-not companies get there shite together and start turning a real profit (if they ever do) they almost to a one become 'legal' in their licensing, etc..

These "success stories" would not be buying ANY software, hardware, Marlboros, Bonsai Kitties, whatever... if they had not, at the beginning, cut corners (in some cases this means piracy).

I hope I can dig up the handouts from that class. There were some cool studies in the packets. Most were actually from the companies themselves stating, in one degree or another, what I just said.

The debate was great too. Maybe we can get one going here as well....:p
 
Fahrvergnuugen is right, i cant believe alot of us (including myself) nit pick at everything everyone says. I dunno why you guys do it. cuz you want to be right, or you think the other person is wrong, or you simply love ur OS. I simply love my OS. I also heard that the 5G15 seed is out....?

-whitesaint
 
Originally posted by stizz
Now back to ruining the suprise of 10.1
to summarize:
[...]
Click to expand...

Psst. Hey guys. Nobody's watching. Quick, stick this CD down your pants. Nobody's watching. Oh, come on, you won't get caught. Hey it only costs a buck to make anyway, so noone's really getting ripped too bad. Besides, those big company's make tons of money, we're only taking one. Come on, I do it all the time... tee hee.

Meanwhile back in the adult world: AAPL 18.73 -0.36 (-1.89%) Hey, it's only 36 cents...
 
Well I guess the "Registered developers" can now post as Apple has seeded a beta version of Mac OS X 10.1 to developers (build 5G15). It is available from the Apple Developer Connect site (if you are a Select or Premier member). The file is a whopping download of more than 450MB. An updated version of the Developers Tools CD and a new version of Disk Copy is also included. The new Disk Copy is essential, as you use it to create a disk image from the downloaded file and then burn a CD from the image. This CD is then used to install the update. For those developers who don't want to hassle with the download method, Apple is also shipping CDs with the software this week.

Finally, at least as of this beta, you will have to do a clean install of the OS; it does not support installing over previous versions. Sleep mode is also not yet supported.
So lets here form you!
 
actually have heard it's up to the 5Hxxx levels. But who cares? I just want september to get here already!

Unrelated note: Buddy of mine at the firm (head of IT for our Boston Office) came into my office today to search apple's store site. He wants a new mac...

I actually have to confess that while I only spend my own money on Macs, I do have two PIII laptops (is it just me or do they get REALLY hot on the thighs on the plane - hotter then my TiBook when watching DVDs. Battery on the TiBook died and wanted to finish watching Dancer in the Dark - GREAT FLICK) for some law stuff and making things easier when I'm doing contract and Intellectual Property work overseas. I always have my TiBook and every single one of the clients (especially the norse - in particular the Icelandic go apedoody over the TiBook. I've greased a few wheels by getting a couple for those clients) spends more time playing with it compared to the actual work we do with the PIIIs or Palms or whatever. and two windoze boxes in my office.

Having the IT head as my bud has bonusses... I get the cool laptops and no firewall so we play some decent games. Ever play EverQuest? I'm addicted. So, anyway, I'm kinda converted but it's not a REAL conversion - I'D never buy a windoze box or peice of software myself...

But now the table has turned and IT Buddy is at my desk saying things like "Kewl!" and "Wow, it's got that built in..." Read the MhZ myth and we discussed that for a while. He sided with the Apple philosophy for the way the pipeline is handled. He kept saying, "Man, that'll be great that I won't have to [insert Windoze chore that pisses you off a million times a day here] anymore... It does that without having to [insert arcane windoze method of doing whatever here]..." Amazing.

It all started with our OS X conversation when I installed it on X-Day (we should start using that, like D-Day for the release date of X) That's what got him hooked. Brought him to the decision to buy the hardware to run X.

He's also pretty scared about XP for all the reasons mentioned all over these boards and other things that will make his managing a huge net a nighmare with XP.

I was cautious at first re: his comment of moving the firm over to X if he could show the real benefits to the old geezer that is super IT head for the whole firm worldwide. I thought it'd take years for old nets to be replaced by X if at all. But he's actually getting really fired up to get this done before XP is an option....

I think his final decision was a top dual 800 for home and he went with an iBook for cost reasons instead of the TiBook he really wanted for a portable. Then he blew my friggin mind...

He ordered 2 dual 533 servers for the Boston office with X Server and some other fun crap we added to the firm's purchase order (we'll have to get creative for some of it - maybe Carmeggedon was too much...)

HE'S GONNA HOOK IT UP and show the geezer how they will kick ass.

This would never have even seemed a wet dream to me before X arrived. And like I said, I thought it'd be a slow process if it ever did happen... But this blew my mind.

And he commented that the prices were pretty competitve to stuff he had been purchasing all along for our current net.

Any similar experiences? Any IT heads thinking this through and want to comment/discuss? My Buddy would actually like to talk to others in the same position. And, I'd like to hear pros/cons.

Also, why no comments re: my piracy reminiscence from law school? I thought it'd be a cool discussion and I want to hear wat you guys think about that too...

I used to frequent the macfixit fora but tey're like a bunch of nazis with threaqd closures/deletions/etc. I actually like this place a lot better. we have cool discussions and act like adults, are treated as such - even when we don't always act as such... No thought police here and I like that.

And, you guys are REALLY knowledgeable/helpful/funnyyada yada. Glad I made the switch back in June or whenever
 
Well I guess the "Registered developers" can now post as Apple has seeded a beta version of Mac OS X 10.1 to developers (build 5G15).
Click to expand...

You appear to be misinformed. Registered developers are under NDA from discussing any prerelease builds, and now CAN'T post more than ever if they actually have the thing.
 
termcap:

That always makes me laugh... I just see the iconic Geek just downloaded god knows what from god knows whom and commenting on it to impress...that guy on the hack3r forum pretending to be a hot pre-teen virgin girl wanting him sooo badly..."I really do have nice boobies and I'd let you touch them..." javascript:smilie(':D')

Although there are ways to comment without really commenting. If you know what I mean...
 
Well, apb3, today I went over to the local computer store with a pc/win32 'friend' of mine to buy cdr's, and we *accidently* stumbled upon the Apple Macintosh department. I showed him a Ti book, and he went nutz. He saying all that stuff your friend was saying, as well as "Why did I blow $2k on that compaq POS..."

It was running os9, but I took him home and showed him Mac OS X on my regretably slow G3, and he's like "Wow, that would run great on the Ti book..."

He's going to buy it, I know he will. Apple hard ware is sexy. It doesn't matter if you know about pipe lines and unix compatability. Look at a ti book, then look at a viao. Gota love the Ti book!
 
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