Seagate 160gig

gazzerdc

Registered
Just picked up a brand new 160gig internal hard drive from Seagate for my G4. It's at best buy on sale for $50 with a $70 rebate. So, is this a good deal? I assume so. No software for installation, but with the Mac it's basically plug and play, right? My first hard drive install in my mac if you haven't guess already.

G :D
 

DeltaMac

Tech
Assuming that you have a G4 tower: If your G4 is older than a Mirror-door model, then that 160GB drive will not be fully utilized, and will format to only 128GB. This is a logic board limitation. The only way around this is to add a PCI IDE controller card that will use large hard drives.
 

gazzerdc

Registered
I never have been able to figure out whether this is the "mirror door" model or not. They look like mirrored doors. The receipt calls it a POWER MAC G4 CTO (it is a tower) 933mhz. PCI support is none if that helps; I purchased in June 2002. WOW. Ancient.
 

gazzerdc

Registered
from System Profiler that might be relevant. Can you ascertain what this is?:
Power Mac G4
CPU: PowerPC G4 (2.1)
Number of CPUs: 1
L2 Cache: 256Kb
L3 Cache: 2 MB
Memory: 1.5GB
Bus: 133 Mhz
Boot ROM Version: 4.3.3f2

ATA
ATA-4Bus
ST380021A:
Protocol: ATA
Unit Number: 0
Socket Type: internal

PCI/AGP Cards
GeForce4MX
Type: display
Bus: AGP
Display type: LCD
VRAM: 64

So, I tried to go to the site that was suggested by Satcomer, Accelerate your MAC, but I just didn't know what to put in in regards to the information that is requested. I'm afraid to install if it's going to cause problems.
But in any event, anyone that could help me distinguish what this system is, I'd appreciate the information. In three years (the Apple warranty expired two weeks ago) I was never able to get a straight answer from a tech as to which G4 this was.

Thanks in advance.
Gary
 

Khama

Registered
DeltaMac said:
Assuming that you have a G4 tower: If your G4 is older than a Mirror-door model, then that 160GB drive will not be fully utilized, and will format to only 128GB. This is a logic board limitation. The only way around this is to add a PCI IDE controller card that will use large hard drives.
Not so anymore .....

You can hack to use it ( With some limitations ... )

"The Intech ATA Hi-Cap Support Driver software was created to allow the use of extended capacity ATA drives (drives greater than 128 Gigabytes in size) on older (Pre-Mirrored Door) G4 and G3 Macintoshes running MacOS X versions 10.2 and later. Without this software installed, any extended capacity drive which is connected to the native ATA bus on older Macintosh models will be limited to only 128 Gigabytes."

See the following site:
http://www.speedtools.com/ATA6.shtml
 

DeltaMac

Tech
Just to satisfy your thirst for knowledge, the 933 MHz PowerMac G4 is the one known as a QuickSilver model (Apple refers to yours as a QuickSilver 2002)
The mirrored drive door models have, well, mirrored drive doors. If you see one, you know what that means. The front panel, where the drive doors are, is brilliant chrome (well, plastic, but it looks like a mirror)

The software that Khama refers to works, but you need to keep a copy on a backup, just in case you have to reinstall the system, you will still have it to use. Also, booting to the installer CD would not allow that drive to be properly recognized, would it?
 

gazzerdc

Registered
I was at a store today that specializes in MAC stuff (vs. the Apple store) and lo and behold I SAW MY FIRST mirrored door tower!!! And, so the mystery was finally solved. Mine is the quicksilver. So, I was told to get a PCI Controller , A-card? Huh? I was at COMPusa and looked at PCI controllers with 133 which is what I have. I've also heard the company "Sonnet" mentioned. So, EXACTLY what am I looking for? A PCI Controller with XXXX that is called YYYY....you know, like "get a PCI ATA with 133" on the box. The price I was quoted for the PCI XXX Controller named YYYY that will work with ZZZZ was around $100. Surely, it can be had for less. But don't call me Shirley.
 

gazzerdc

Registered
This is from the site that Satcomer suggested I go to. So, do I need a new PCI controller or not? I hate throwing money away. I supposedly have a 133 bus with ATA protocol currently. What do I need to make sure I can format the 160 gig to 160? Exactly. So, I can shop! ;-)



About "Big Drive" (>137GB) Support:
As mentioned in the site FAQ (IDE hard drive section) and drive db reports, only the 2002 Quicksilver and later Macs have native "Big Drive" (aka 48Bit addressing) support (when formatted with OS X 10.2.x or later's Disk Utility).
If you put a large (160GB, 200GB, 250GB, etc.) IDE drive in a 2001 QS, Digital Audio, Gigabit, Sawtooth, B&W G3, Yikes G4/PCI, Beige G3, etc. using the onboard IDE the drive will be limited to appx. 128GB formatted capacity, regardless of the number of partitions. Options to add large drive support for older Macs is noted in the FAQ. (Like a Mac PCI IDE card w/big drive support, Intechusa.com's drivers, or a Firewire case with a bridge board that has big drive support.)
 

DeltaMac

Tech
Lots of conflicting info about Large Drives on the internet.

Glad you displayed that 'Large Drive" Facts paragraph. If your G4 is a 933, that would make it a Quicksilver 2002, and should support that 160GB with no added card needed. The IDE drive bus is actually a 66 MHz, so you can get faster access to the drive, by installing an ATA133 drive card (Sonnet makes some good ones for the Mac), but you don't really need that for 'normal' uses
 

gazzerdc

Registered
Thanks. I've been spending the last half hour googling "PCI controller, ATA card" and "ULTRA ATA" and it's maddening. So, to get faster, an ATA 133 would be the way to go? Speed would be nice. And it would be less than $100, no? The bus speed in my system profiler says 133. Am I there already?
You've been a great help. Thanks.
 

gazzerdc

Registered
PS Just what is RAID? I see that quoted quite a bit with ATA 133 along with it. EBAY has the Ultra ATA 133 RAID controller for $.01.
(grins)
 

DeltaMac

Tech
Your system bus is 133 MHz, but your IDE drive bus operates at 66 MHz. Not all parts of your system operate at system bus speed. Another example, the optical drive is connected to the EIDE bus, which operates at 33 MHz
Yes, an ATA133 PCI drive controller card will give faster access to your hard drive.
 

gazzerdc

Registered
Thanks. So I just need to look for an ATA133 PCI drive controller card? Anything else to watch for? Seems that Sonnetech is the only one out there for $100.

What is RAID? Does it have something to do with operating a server?
 

DeltaMac

Tech
RAID is 'Redundant Array of Independent Disks', and simply is a set of drives that carry redundant information, or data shared among a group of drives. The controller takes care of the operation of this multiple drive set.
 

ElDiabloConCaca

U.S.D.A. Prime
I wouldn't try just sticking any old PCI ATA card you find on eBay in your Macintosh unless they explicitly state Macintosh-compatibility. There's no guarantee they'll work, and usually there are no drivers to correct this.

I would highly recommend the Sonnet ATA PCI card -- it's priced at $99.95 on their site, but can probably be found cheaper elsewhere.

Edit: Here is is for $79: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonnet Technology/TAT133/
 

gazzerdc

Registered
Is this the same type of thing?n This was one Mac Connection site.

http://www.macconnection.com/ProductDetail?Sku=272150
SIIG's long-term business vision, comprehensive product line, effective marketing strategy and exceptional customer support has made SIIG the leading brand for computer add-on products. For over 15 years, SIIG has successfully done business with reputable customers in all sales channels. As the industry brand in I/O and controllers, SIIG has the widest offering of entry level to high-end PCI and ISA I/O boards, controller (SCSI and EIDE) boards, USB devices, IEEE 1394 FireWire adapters, multimedia cards, data communication and storage devices.
 

gazzerdc

Registered
DeltaMac, you helped me to get to this point, now I'm a little confused and perhaps you can enlighten me. You may recall, I have a G4 (see the quoted info )
DeltaMac said:
Lots of conflicting info about Large Drives on the internet.

Glad you displayed that 'Large Drive" Facts paragraph. If your G4 is a 933, that would make it a Quicksilver 2002, and should support that 160GB with no added card needed. The IDE drive bus is actually a 66 MHz, so you can get faster access to the drive, by installing an ATA133 drive card (Sonnet makes some good ones for the Mac), but you don't really need that for 'normal' uses
I purchased the ATA133 card. I have the 160gb hard drive. But there was a "NOTE" in the instructions that caused me to hesitate. It notes that I use the 40pin/80 wire ULTRA ATA cable to connect two drives. I want to keep the 60gig that's in there now and add the 160gig. Simple, right? Not so fast.

Here's what I'm hesitant about: WARNING: Hard drives attached to the Tempo ATA133 will not mount until they have been formatted; this includes drives with data on them, previously used in other computers (I would assume the "other" computer could also be this current one). Formatting erases a drive of data....

So....here's what I'm trying to figure out.

1. If I install the new hard drive with one cable, I'll lose the data on the existing one (whether we make it the master or the slave, either way) since in order for it to show up on the desktop I need to format it. Right or wrong?

Or...
2. Can I install the 160gig with the old cable using the new ATA133 card? In other words, just plug in the ATA133 card, attach the new 160gig as a slave, keep the 60gig as the master, using the existing cable? (I have a feeling that answer is no....)

Or...
3. Can I install the 160gig with the new cable and keep the existing hard drive attached to the old cable? Two separate cables. Two separate drives. And if so, how tricky is this to do?

Or...
4. Since the 60gig is the original hard drive and it isn't coming from another computer, can I just install the card in a slot, remove the old cable, attach the new 133ATA cable to the existing hard drive (master) and the new 160gig hard drive (slave) and reboot, format the new hard drive and not have anything lost on the old hard drive? That would be too simple, huh!

or...
5. As you said originally, just install the 160 with the old ATA card, it'll run slower but it would be the easiest solution. EXCEPT: Do I still end up having to reformat the original hard drive? That's what scares me.


Thanks in advance. :confused:
 

DeltaMac

Tech
Keep this simple -
Connect the 160GB drive to the Tempo card (with the 40/80 cable that comes with it). You'll be formatting that one anyway, you really haven't used it yet. Leave the original 60 GB in place, still connected as is. This could be set as Master. Both drives can be set as master, as they are on separate buses. The ONLY reason to set the drives differently, would be if they were attached to the same cable.
The way I read the warning - If you want to connect both drives to the Tempo card (and you could), then you would need to erase the old drive after connecting to the Tempo.
SO, you could connect the big drive to the Temp, erase that one. backup you small drive to the big drive (with Carbon Copy Cloner, for example), then move the connection for the small drive to the Tempo card, with the option to attach as a slave to the same cable, or purchase a 2nd 40/80 cable to attach the small drive to the 2nd bus connector - whatever :)
Then you can move the small drive image back to the small drive (again with CCC), set your startup drive as the small drive, and back in business with much faster drive access.
But, there's lots of other options, you don't have to proceed this way.
good Luck.....
 

ElDiabloConCaca

U.S.D.A. Prime
I've got a similar Sonnet card -- the ATA/100 model, and mine came with the same warning that I would need to reformat the drive after connecting it to the Sonnet Tempo card.

While your mileage may vary, and whether you choose to ignore that warning is up to you, my hard drives required no reformatting to be recognized or used with the new card. I was running OS 10.2 at the time, and simply unplugging the ribbon cable from the motherboard and plugging it into the Tempo was smooth and flawless -- booted instantly from the new card.

While I don't recommend ignoring the warning, you may find that the drives require no modification (other than jumpers, possibly) to be instantly recognized and usable using the new Tempo card. I recommend that a good backup always be kept around in case of the inevitable hard drive failure, and this would be a perfect time to get in the habit of keeping a good backup on another hard drive.
 
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