What's your opinion about Macwarez?!

That's another reason to use warez:

You don't have to pay for software which is going to be cheaper than the price you bought it for...:rolleyes::p

AppleWatcher
 
Ok, time for a re-cap and compilation, if you ask me... please fill in any blanks or add to anything you see fit.

Reasons to pirate software:
...it's free!
...it saves time and money on the consumer's part!
...it saves me a trip to the store, where I wouldn't have spent the money anyways! (most of the people in favor of piracy here are under the age of 18, meaning they have little to no money or income anyways... I haven't heard from a rich minor here yet!)
...I can get expensive stuff I normally wouldn't have access to and live outside my income bracket, even if it means sitting my fat, lazy ass in front of a computer all day!
...who needs sunshine, anyways?

Reasons NOT to pirate software:
...it's illegal!
...it's debateably immoral!
...it hurts the software companies! (one small reason prices of software are high is BECAUSE of piracy, morons!)
...it's related to stealing, which brands people "thieves!"
...it promotes laziness by giving people one more reason to sit inside when they could be outside!
...it hurts OTHER consumers by driving prices up!
...it could mean harsher, more ridiculous software activation schemes in the future! (remember when you didn't even NEED a license key or serial number to use a piece of software? Why do you think we have to now?!)
...it's counter-productive, and used mostly to "show-off," which is a juvenile act in itself!

Anything I left out? ;)
 
Yup. Can you provide me one example of a company that DOESN'T hurt when people steal their software or products? Sure, Microsoft's got billions of dollars, but if we agree that stealing software can drive prices up, then looking at Microsoft, I'd say that piracy gave them a swift kick to the groin area and that's why we now have to pay $500 for their Office suite. Also probably why Windows XP registration/activation is so ridiculous.

Load up LimeWire or whatever Gnutella program you've got... or search Hotline or Carracho for "Microsoft." You'll see PAGES and PAGES of Microsoft software, ready to be pirated. Microsoft software is hands-down, the most commonly pirated software. Would you disagree?
 
*steps up onto soapbox*

one reason you missed, stealing software is about the only way to protect the rights of the consumer against the absurdly pro-industry lines of law (copyright forever, buying a CD to not own it, agreeing to an indecipherable anal raping agreement prior to being allowed to even install software, price gouging ...)

OK, yeah, it's illegal, how often do we repeal laws? Everything in the US is illegal. It's illegal to wash a donkey in your bathtub in Iowa if I remember correctly.

And finally, by stealing M$ office for compatibility with other people who have been effectively brainwashed into thinking that everyone likes wants and uses M$ Office, just so that I can read their documents, yet I never of my own free will use the product for anything, and all the stuff I send back to those people is in rtf, or pdf, or whatnot, then I am protecting myself against M$, and keeping money that I can then spend on legitimate products like AppleWorks, iCab, GraphicConverter, etc. Stealing from the rich to give to the poor.

I am a finite, limited resource; and so is my money. I'll be damned if I am going to misappropriate my own funds according to law to benefit those who are the greatest burden to society while good, hard working, honest people go unrewarded. This country was founded by people willing to say "screw you" to a government incapable of addressing the needs of the people in the modern time. I put 3 years of my life into the Army, so it's not like I don't care, or I don't put my money where my mouth is. But the consumer is getting screwed over by the law and by big business at this time, and I believe that's one of the major reasons for this whole recession.

Until companies loosen their grip, we don't buy shit. and now we're at an impasse. but the companies don't budge. RIAA, MPAA, Disney and all the owners of these extended copyrights want greater protection from the government instead of putting power back in the hands of the people. Well if tehy can't give me back my own purchasing power, and the government seems not to care about me either, then I will take what I feel is rightfully mine through whatever means I can. Legal or not.

I have debated the moral issue for a long time. I am all about doing good for society and benefiting the world whether I see just compensation or not. And companies who obviously don't believe in these same things, will need both legal and physical protection from me taking from them what I feel they are unreasonably taking away.

Brand me as a criminal if you must. But judge me slow, I am not a simple man, and this is not a simple case. I will copy media which I have bought a license to listen to, to any media I feel fit to use, for my own personal use. Either you sell me a DVD, or grant me a license to use. I'll abide by either, but not both. I'll be copying my DVD's to CD's so my 5 yr old son can watch Cats & Dogs or The Iron Giant on my laptop which lacks DVD. I'll by copying my tapes ond CD's to mp3 for use in my car via the same laptop, or maybe if I get the cash, and mp3 player.

Consumers will have cash, that cash will be spent on what the consumer feels best benefits him and the people he cares about. It is unreasonable, and against the very nature of capitalism to rely on government intervention to guarantee a cut of the consumer cash flow. If all the laws were gone, people would still spend money. It only has power if you spend it. Hoarding it has no value. Competition would continue. So why are my rights being stripped away? Why doesn't the US government at least admit to being socialist or something instead of holding a facade of capitalism up while they strip their consumers of their rights because business can afford lobbyists and lawyers?

If I thought I could make a difference as a lawyer or a politician, I'd become one, but the system is too bizarre for me to understand any more. I fear I'd be sucked in and spit out, all used up, without ever making a difference in the machine. I understand computers. So that's where I'll stand by what's right and wrong, in terms I can understand, in a medium that I feel I still have some control over. I have some good friends in politics and law, and I hope they can make the difference that I can't. Rest assured they all have good web sites. And the companies that helped me to produce those quality web sites have been justly compensated. More so than I have been justly compensated.

This fight is far from over. And I don't really care which side you are on in the end, so long as you are there by your own choice, and you realize that there is a battle of rights going on. And both sides have things to say. And that laws do not make morality, or right and wrong. They are lines we agree to, so that we can all live reasonably. And I don't want consumers to become the slaves of corporations in a less than free country of our own making.

* bows head, and steps off of soapbox *
 
Originally posted by theed
one reason you missed, stealing software is about the only way to protect the rights of the consumer against the absurdly pro-industry lines of law (copyright forever, buying a CD to not own it, agreeing to an indecipherable anal raping agreement prior to being allowed to even install software, price gouging ...)
Click to expand...

Stealing software is NOT just about the only way to protect consumers against pro-industry lines of law -- this country is capitalistic, and its main goal is to make money, plain and simple. In a socialist-kind of society, or even communist, EVERYONE would be able to afford the same software. Not here. The US is set up so that people can go as far as they want to in the direction of wealth and stop where they see fit -- all the tools and materials necessary are there for the taking to go all the way -- and it really peeves me when someone stops halfway then bitches about where they are in life.

OK, yeah, it's illegal, how often do we repeal laws? Everything in the US is illegal. It's illegal to wash a donkey in your bathtub in Iowa if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...

I understand -- there are some silly laws still around. If I remember correctly, it's illegal to walk backwards eating ice cream outside on a Wednesday in New York...

And finally, by stealing M$ office for compatibility with other people who have been effectively brainwashed into thinking that everyone likes wants and uses M$ Office, just so that I can read their documents, yet I never of my own free will use the product for anything, and all the stuff I send back to those people is in rtf, or pdf, or whatnot, then I am protecting myself against M$, and keeping money that I can then spend on legitimate products like AppleWorks, iCab, GraphicConverter, etc. Stealing from the rich to give to the poor.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of ways to have compatibility with those "brain-washed" individuals besides stealing the software they're using: AppleWorks, for example.

I am a finite, limited resource; and so is my money. I'll be damned if I am going to misappropriate my own funds according to law to benefit those who are the greatest burden to society while good, hard working, honest people go unrewarded. This country was founded by people willing to say "screw you" to a government incapable of addressing the needs of the people in the modern time. I put 3 years of my life into the Army, so it's not like I don't care, or I don't put my money where my mouth is. But the consumer is getting screwed over by the law and by big business at this time, and I believe that's one of the major reasons for this whole recession.
Click to expand...

No, you are not a finite, limited resource -- and if you are at this current point in time, you are by your own free will. You and everyone else in this country have the ability to go as far as you want to -- YES, it will be hard and a struggle, but you could be rich next year if you really put your mind to it and took risks, which are another thing that this country is all about. How did we get so damn powerful and big in a little over 200 years? We took risks and put our full efforts into everything we did.

...and there's a legal, effective way to say "screw you" to the government -- change the laws. Don't break them -- change them. YES, it is a long and tedious process to change a law, but the ability to do so is there, and you have to keep in mind that you're not changing the law to benefit yourself -- you're changing the law to benefit EVERYONE -- people YEARS down the road. Imagine if changing the law was simple and quick -- laws would change so damn quick that one thing you did today would be illegal tomorrow. Sheer chaos. It's long and tedious for a reason -- to make damn sure it's the right thing to do.

Until companies loosen their grip, we don't buy shit. and now we're at an impasse. but the companies don't budge. RIAA, MPAA, Disney and all the owners of these extended copyrights want greater protection from the government instead of putting power back in the hands of the people. Well if tehy can't give me back my own purchasing power, and the government seems not to care about me either, then I will take what I feel is rightfully mine through whatever means I can. Legal or not.

I have debated the moral issue for a long time. I am all about doing good for society and benefiting the world whether I see just compensation or not. And companies who obviously don't believe in these same things, will need both legal and physical protection from me taking from them what I feel they are unreasonably taking away.

Brand me as a criminal if you must. But judge me slow, I am not a simple man, and this is not a simple case. I will copy media which I have bought a license to listen to, to any media I feel fit to use, for my own personal use. Either you sell me a DVD, or grant me a license to use. I'll abide by either, but not both. I'll be copying my DVD's to CD's so my 5 yr old son can watch Cats & Dogs or The Iron Giant on my laptop which lacks DVD. I'll by copying my tapes ond CD's to mp3 for use in my car via the same laptop, or maybe if I get the cash, and mp3 player.

Consumers will have cash, that cash will be spent on what the consumer feels best benefits him and the people he cares about. It is unreasonable, and against the very nature of capitalism to rely on government intervention to guarantee a cut of the consumer cash flow. If all the laws were gone, people would still spend money. It only has power if you spend it. Hoarding it has no value. Competition would continue. So why are my rights being stripped away? Why doesn't the US government at least admit to being socialist or something instead of holding a facade of capitalism up while they strip their consumers of their rights because business can afford lobbyists and lawyers?

If I thought I could make a difference as a lawyer or a politician, I'd become one, but the system is too bizarre for me to understand any more. I fear I'd be sucked in and spit out, all used up, without ever making a difference in the machine. I understand computers. So that's where I'll stand by what's right and wrong, in terms I can understand, in a medium that I feel I still have some control over. I have some good friends in politics and law, and I hope they can make the difference that I can't. Rest assured they all have good web sites. And the companies that helped me to produce those quality web sites have been justly compensated. More so than I have been justly compensated.

This fight is far from over. And I don't really care which side you are on in the end, so long as you are there by your own choice, and you realize that there is a battle of rights going on. And both sides have things to say. And that laws do not make morality, or right and wrong. They are lines we agree to, so that we can all live reasonably. And I don't want consumers to become the slaves of corporations in a less than free country of our own making.

* bows head, and steps off of soapbox *
Click to expand...

Hehe... as much as I disagree with you, I DO thank you for your input -- I really didn't want to see this thread go the way of mindless babble, and you've helped me to engage once again in intelligent conversation instead of one-line quips and what-not.

Let's not confuse our facts here -- I'm against stealing. I still think stealing bread to feed hungry mouths is wrong, but it's a justifiable wrong. One time doing that is allowable, but when the mother does nothing to better her situation and resorts to a life of stealing bread, then she has failed, not society or the government. This government is here to let you become rich beyond your wildest dreams, or to sit on your ass and do nothing and be as poor as you want -- it's completely the individual's decision. Some people have to fight tooth and nail to get where they want to be; others it comes easy. That's the way it is, that's the way it's supposed to be.

Stealing software has just opened our eyes to ridiculous licensing schemes and what-not -- it's not the answer to it.
 
Thanks!

:D

Anyway, re this:
The US is set up so that people can go as far as they want to in the direction of wealth and stop where they see fit -- all the tools and materials necessary are there for the taking to go all the way -- and it really peeves me when someone stops halfway then bitches about where they are in life.
Click to expand...
As a view of life and the world, Isn't that just a teensy-weensy bit simplistic?!?
 
ah, yeah. :)

"Hmm, I need Microsoft Office v. X in order to view that customer's file. Maybe it's time I went into politics and changed the laws, so I could use Office for free."

Not only that I'm *not* American (so it wouldn't be of much use to go to *your* government), I also believe that your post is a bit too far off for the discussion.

Isn't it really easy? It's illegal to copy software of which you don't own a license. You *can* of course use software illegally, but it won't be illegal whatever *reasons* you provide.

But going into politics or trying to change laws (what good'll that do? do you think it'll help software development to legalise software theft?!) isn't an *option* for someone who needs a particular piece of software he hasn't got the money for. becoming rich might be an option, but not from now to tomorrow.
 
Sure, that view of life and the world IS a bit simplistic, but it's not far off... a capitalistic society lets people go as far and as high as they want, within the limits of the laws. Plain and simple.

...and one needn't become a politician or lawyer to change a law. A homeless person could have influence in changing a law -- INFLUENCE, mind you. One person cannot change a law. If only one person wanted a law changed, then I'd be inclined to say that the law is serving its purpose as it stands and that one person just better find a way to work with it.

I think it's a greedy and immature view to say that one NEEDS a piece of software today. Sure, you may require a certain software package to be able to "get" or "hold" a certain client, but NEED is a bit extreme... it seems that a lot of people these days have REALLy confused the ideas behind "want" and "need." You NEED food. You WANT software. Comparing someone who steals bread to feed their family and someone who steals software for their own benefit is a good example of the difference between WANT and NEED.

If someone wants Office v.X, they go buy it. If they don't have the money, they wait and save. "But Office is the standard, and I NEED it today!" Would you hear someone saying that Hondas are the standard car onte road, therefore they NEED a Honda? Would you hear someone saying that tennis shoes are the standard, therefore they NEED to get rid of their boots and buy tennis shoes? Of course not! Office is NOT the standard. Bill Gates does not set the standard. Microsoft does not set the standard. Guess what the standard is? RTF, if I'm not mistaken... if it's not that, then it's plain text format. Not Microsoft Word format. Bill Gates and Microsoft have just invented a wildly popular product, which is NOT the standard. It's just popular. Does that make it a necessity? Nope. I get by day after day without Office, if I want to.

I still believe people nowadays take a look at their government (in the US) and think that they're not a part of it. This sounds cheezy and stupid like Social Studies from 7th grade, but this country really is "for the people, by the people." Everyone has the power to influence where this country and government goes and does, but instead, they resort to theft, because it's the easy way out, and they think they have no power. Get some cajones, straighten that jelly-fish backbone, and get involved. Don't sit on the sidelines watching this thing unfold in front of you. Go join a MUG somewhere and get some people organized. Write a letter. Do something other than sit on your ass and complain about how things are and be a thief.

To those that think that piracy is the only way out -- what other tactics have you tried besides whining in an on-line forum and theft?
 
To those that think that piracy is the only way out -- what other tactics have you tried besides whining in an on-line forum and theft?
Click to expand...
Well, I don't think piracy is the only way out, nor -- as I have already stated -- do I condone it.

What I would say is that some software houses' actions (or lack of) have led me to move away from their products. Now, I don't use on-line forums to whine about this per se, but to warn others. Simple as that.

Re capitalism etc., of course that's the idea. The practice is very different. That sort of argument -- anyone being able to go as high as they want -- holds about as much water as saying that the UK is a true democracy or that the US is a class-less society!

Anyway, with regards the whole M$ Office debate, I too have gotten by without it ever having sullied my various Macs' hard drives. However, I appreciate some people's issues with the popularity of MS Word etc. There are other ways of opening Office documents -- AppleWorks being just one option (and if you can't afford AppleWorks... Jeez!) -- but it seems a shame that the old free "viewer" technology no longer figures in M$'s thinking.

By way of example: before we were issued with M$ Office on our work PCs, we used Lotus SmartSuite. However, a lot of clients used Word & Excel, so we all had the free M$ Word and Excel file viewers on our PCs... kind of like having Acrobat Reader but not the full Acrobat product I guess. I wonder if anything like this ever existed for the Mac?

Also, what about StarOffice? I haven't searched yet, but has anyone ported the Linux version to Mac OS X? I guess that would be kind of a major job... :D
 
If I'm not mistaken, you can purchase Word separately from the rest of the Office suite for, what, $150? At least you can for the PC -- I dunno about the Mac. Some people may say, "Whoa, $150 for a word-processor?!" However, if their view of Microsoft Word is simply a word-processor, they've been living in a cave for the last 5 or 10 years. I think $150 is a fair price to ask for Microsoft Word, with all the bells and whistles it comes with. Then you get people going, "Whoa, I don't need this BLOATware crap!" Well, go spend $100 on AppleWorks and get all the functionality you'll ever need.

And yes, Microsoft has taken a very closed-minded, monopolistic approach to their platform and software. No longer will they open up their proprietary formats so that we can all view their documents -- they WANT us to plop down $500 on their software. But stealing it isn't the answer -- sure, it's illegal, but by stealing it and using it you just bought your ass a one-way ticket into their monopoly, and you just got brainwashed and suckered into using their software just like the people who actually paid cash for it.

Microsoft will get what they deserve in court. It's not up to us to decide that it's ok to steal from them. It's illegal to steal from a criminal, it's illegal to steal from an honest man -- it's just plain illegal to steal, period. Just because Microsoft has done wrong doesn't justify any of the people's actions on this forum who are stealing their software. You feel Microsoft is stealing from society? You are, too, if you're involved in software theft. So choose a side, but don't keep one foot on one side, saying you're an upstanding citizen fighting for the good of society, and keep one foot on the other side and outright steal. That's pretty hypocritical and counter-productive to what you claim you're trying to accomplish.

Stealing it is illegal. You're not hurting Microsoft -- you're helping them if you steal Office. You're hurting other consumers and yourself by giving software vendors a reason to hike prices. But as for Microsoft, you're helping them! Instead of being the rebel that changes the world as we know it by using alternative software packages and resisting the Microsoft-Word-.DOC-becoming-standard, you're adding to Microsoft's user base and making them even more monopolistic and helping expand their empire.

Fine, people, pirate away at Microsoft with that smirk on your face like you're doing some good -- you're just buying into the monopoly through a side-entrance. Just be aware of what you're really doing and stop fooling yourself. You're helping Microsoft, not hurting them.
 
Just went to http://www.dabs.com/mac here in the UK

They're selling MS Word 2001 on its own for £276!!

Or MS Word 2001 with Entourage for £140.

Go figure...

As for Office v.X, you only seem to be able to buy the whole suite, not individual applications.

What a bargain.

:rolleyes:
 
Ok, woah. How in f***'s name do you get SIXTEEN FREAKIN PAGES?

I got to 8, reading every single f***ing entry, then gave up and clicked last to see where it ended up.

Funny how everyone is obsessed with frickin pirated Photoshop and Office eh?

And now for my two cents:

In april or may of 1999, i bought My first computer. mum and dad had an LCII but i wanted a new imac. so i bought one with money mum had given me a few months before. i got ripped off wildly. but i thought it was cool then. a little while later, after spending countless hours in chatrooms, and not knowing about many mac-alternatives, i went back asking about how to run windows on their as well. $399 australian later, i was the owner of a legal VPC 3.0 licence.

Not including software that is bundled with Macs today, (OS, AppleWorks with iSeries, iMovie with some, etc) i have never bought a piece of software since.

I have OS X. i didnt pay for it.
i have Office X, 2001, and 98. i didnt pay for any of them.
i have vpc 4. i didnt pay for it.
i have fireworks 3 and 4, dreamweaver 3 and 4, flash 5. a dodgy copy of photoshop...6, and various other adobe apps. i didnt pay for a single one.

the point is, i have no qualms about downloading illegal software. with the bloated prices of ALL software today (wtf is a FREE $20 update?) i must have over $20 000 worth of software, if you include things like reg. codes for QT, codecs, fonts, etc.

I have maybe...4, 5 gig of "pirate" software, now that i have os x. am i bragging? no. do i wish the software was "legal"? sometimes, when i think what a pretty picture all the "aqua" style boxes must look like on a wall together ;). would i have the software if i HAD to buy it? Nope. i have Word, etc. because it has more features than appleworks, and i now how to use them, and, it is SO much easier for doing work at TAFE (a bit like uni) without having to keep converting shit.

As a guy who works in web-design said to me last year, specifically about cracks/warez for Adobe/Macromedia apps.
They don't care about home users. if you start to make money, you should buy it.
Hell, the comany doesnt even have 100% legit software. they own the stuff that makes them money, but the tech guy there uses some slightly dodgy stuff every now and then. while i was there, he used a dodgy serial number for an app they owned, because he lost the original.

the point is,
some people say they will pay when they start making money, or can afford to.
i, and many others have said we wouldnt buy the software anyway.

some say that we ae hurting developers, just like stealing a car.
not really.
steal a car, and an actual item is missing, and an actual insurance company has to payout actual money.
COPY software and all you get is a copy. sure we don't buy it, but i don't think anyone would "steal" a copy just because they can, if they were intending to buy it.

you cant lose out on money someone wasnt going to spend.

thats my twenty two cents.

goodnight.
 
I think another point is this:

Isn't it true that everyone here just wants to pay for Apple's software? I do! I paid for Mac OS X, for Mac OS X 10.1 and if 10.2's out I'm gonna pay for it, too!

Office v. X is quite nice, but I don't want to pay Microsoft as much as I want to pay Apple.

Simply because I (everyone here, I think :D) love(s) Apple...
You like Adobe, don't you ElDiablo :p

AppleWatcher


UPDATE: Hey benpool: It's possible to buy only Word & Entourage without Excel & Powerpoint.
 
Originally posted by AppleWatcher
Simply because I (everyone here, I think :D) love(s) Apple...
You like Adobe, don't you ElDiablo :p
Click to expand...

Hehe... both Apple and Adobe are high on my "favorites" list. I think they produce some damn good software.

Macromedia's pretty decent in my opinion, too.

Extensis is another fav., though I won't say their software has worked flawlessly under all conditions all the time, though.

Hervé: I think it's best to have no ideas at all and share them. ;)
 
Some are discussing what the universe is, why there is life, why there is anything, others are discussing if we should use warez or not...
Some are killing themselves hoping they'll get into a better world when they're dead, others sit in the front of their computers all day, posting to internet boards :rolleyes:
 
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