World Cup 2006

[fryke]

Well, I'm sure Rooney doesn't walk around saying "Sorry!" now. He's not the type. I'm not defending C. Ronaldo, btw. - I agree with what you say about him. I also saw that C. Ronaldo and others tried (and obviously managed) to make Rooney angry. But if he can't stay the heat... If you try to see Rooney _not_ through British eyes, you'll see a young man rushing headlong. And the refs clearly have had the guideline to show cards when fouls are hazardous to the attacked player's health.

 

[bbloke]

I've felt rather patronized here, and so feel I have to respond.

[Edit: I should clarify that I don't mean this in a wider sense in this thread. I am referring solely to being accused of seeing things a certain way only because of national bias (see above post), implying I have no valid reason for my views, only jingoism.]

Well, I'm sure Rooney doesn't walk around saying "Sorry!" now. He's not the type.

For a start, you're not being fair. You seem to see it as: Rooney fouled someone, he meant to foul someone with malice, and he's not a decent enough person to apologize if he did. You're making a big judgement: "Rooney's a Bad Person."

If: (1) he is innocent and (2) it was an accident and (3) he was sent off unfairly, do you really still expect an apology?

If he is not innocent then OK, but then we also have to apply this comment to everyone, not just the English. What about the Portuguese? Do you see other Portuguese players apologizing for diving and for any fouls? How about Figo in the match with The Netherlands? There, he clearly headbutted someone. Figo got off incredibly lightly. I don't see you calling for a red card against him, expecting an apology, and attacking his character. Plus, I think that case was much less ambiguous than this one... The difference is: you support Portugal and Figo is Portuguese.

I also saw that C. Ronaldo and others tried (and obviously managed) to make Rooney angry. But if he can't stay the heat...

Putting the issue to one side whether or not Rooney was angry and lashed out, or whether it was an accident... You really must apply your attitudes equally, as Portuguese players have lashed out in recent times. By your own measure, Figo should not be playing either. Nor Deco. And others.

If you try to see Rooney _not_ through British eyes, you'll see a young man rushing headlong.

OK, this is the comment which irked me and made me feel I had to reply. If only I was less biased and more honest, I'd see things like you do, eh? I don't appreciate the implication that I am somehow blinkered, while you are above such things.

Have you actually watched the video? "A young man rushing headlong" eh? I've watched the video repeatedly, and I fail to see Rooney dangerously rushing in somehow. I see him with the ball and desperately trying to stay upright and keep possession, while being hacked at... I have to agree with Rooney's statement, most other teams *ahem* would have just dived and taken the foul.

Furthermore, you state something about seeing things through "British eyes." Ignoring the fact that the Welsh, Scots, and Northern Irish might not be too keen on you lumping them in as being the same as the English, you're being simplistic. I've already stated that opinion in this country seems divided about what happened. In addition, I work with people from a range of countries (outside of the UK) and, from what I hear, it is not just the English who have a few things to say about that match.

This first came up with the conversation about Urs Meier, a Swiss referee who made decisions against England/in favor of Portugal. You seemed to portray me as biased as an England-supporter, but how can you, a Swiss Portugal-supporter, really tell me objectively and in very absolute terms what was "_right_"? Surely you would be doubly-biased, if anything! This followed on to when we come to the similar subject of Rooney (i.e. another England vs. Portugal situation) and it again comes down to me being on the English side, and you being a Portugal supporter, but you seemingly imply I'm the only one seeing things through biased eyes.

I have mentioned and accepted pro-English bias. I have also stated I'm open to being wrong. My contention is this: I feel this is one-way.

 

[bbloke]

Last night's Semi-Final between Italy and Germany looked very good. Neither side sat back too much, both went for goals. It could have easily turned out to be a very nervous match, with both sides too afraid of conceding a goal. As it turned out, both played well.

I had the perception that Italy might have just had a slight edge, but there was not a lot in it. The game was also played in a decent enough spirit and the referee did a good job, especially as he set the tone by not going card-crazy early in the game. The two goals were very good, and it must have been heart-breaking for Germany. The Italians could not have left it much later...........

Congratulations to Italy and commiserations to Germany. It was one of those games where you almost don't want either side to lose!

 

[fryke]

(Deco, btw., _did_ get a red card, didn't he...) ... I think you took my message down the wrong throat, and yeah I do mix up British/English/UK/Common Wealth a lot. So I meant English eyes. Sorry 'bout that. And yes, bbloke, I've seen the videos, too. I've seen them again and again, and I was in the middle of English fans with a Portugal shirt, and it was _difficult_ for me as well, I didn't think it helped the game overall (and above all, I want to see good games at World Cups), but that kick in the balls was clear, and after a while, even the English fans in the pub I was at agreed that for this he got the red card... But let's let it rest, please.

I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game, although I _did_ hope we'd see more goals (for both sides).

 

[reed]

Bad tactics by the Germans. Hoping for penalties. Too bad seeing how they were the host country and have a great (future) team. Italy throws in the reserves. Same error with Argentina. One goal....let us run the clock out. Attack. Always attack till the whistle blows.

 

[Rhisiart]

... and yeah I do mix up British/English/UK/Commonwealth (sic) a lot.

In my experience, most non-Brits don't understand this British/English/UK thing for the simple fact that they don't want to. However, I am sure this does not apply to you .

... yes, bbloke, I've seen the videos, too. I've seen them again and again, … but let's let it rest, please.

I think bbloke thinks you were dismissing him, i.e. “looking at Rooney through British (sic) eyes”, perhaps implying that he is blind to any opposing opinion. (Sorry - didn't let it rest did I?).

I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game, although I _did_ hope we'd see more goals (for both sides).

Yes, a truly wonderful spectacle of football. I was surprised to see such good sportsmanship from the Italian team. Perhaps they had been warned before the game to play fair. Ironically, it seems that when they do their football improves.

 

[bbloke]

(Sorry this post is so long... I'm trying to make sure I've said everything I need to, and I'm looking for different angles to make my point if I haven't done so already.)

... yes, bbloke, I've seen the videos, too. I've seen them again and again, … but let's let it rest, please.

I think bbloke thinks you were dismissing him, i.e. “looking at Rooney through British (sic) eyes”, perhaps implying that he is blind to any opposing opinion.

Thanks, rhisiart.

This is basically it: I feel dismissed quickly and patronized, as I'm effectively told I need to be "put right" by someone who allegedly knows better than me and seems to think they are not also biased.

(Deco, btw., _did_ get a red card, didn't he...)

Well, he didn't, actually. Not in the way that I'm talking about. Deco got a yellow card for a reckless tackle when he was angry. He then got a second yellow card, which leads to a red, for messing about with the ball ("time wasting") at a later stage. That's two yellows, not a single red for an aggressive act. Therefore, Deco and Figo did not get red cards when they lashed out in anger.

Also, what I was mainly referring to was your phrase "But if he can't stay the heat..." The saying "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" means "Don’t take on a job if you are unwilling to face its pressures" ( http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/ifyoucantsta.html). So I'm saying if you think Rooney shouldn't be playing because of his temper, then surely neither should more than one of the Portuguese side. I'm applying your own rules to your own team, basically.

... I think you took my message down the wrong throat

I certainly hope so, but it didn't seem that way in the light of the rest of the conversation.

The crux of it to me is this: we are both biased. Neither of us is truly objective and therefore neither can talk in absolute terms to the other. Life is never that simple.

So that we could move on, I just hoped for an indication that you were not peering down your nose at me, not telling me you know best, not saying that a pro-Portugal bias does not affect you, and not saying that my views are "wrong" and based purely in bias, rather than facts. I feel I didn't get that, alas.

But let's let it rest, please.

I agree with this and genuinely want to, but I find it very difficult because the following bits of text seem to indicate to me that nothing's changed...

but that kick in the balls was clear

You see? How can I feel like we've moved on when you say this sort of thing? It's not a problem that you disagree with me, that's fine. It's the manner in which you talk down to me. You just tell me I'm flat out wrong and there can be no room for uncertainty. I've tried to talk about what I saw, what people of other nationalities saw, of me accepting my own national bias, of me being open to being wrong, how you will be biased too, and so on. But I feel the reply I get is basically a very simple and a very absolutist: "......You're still wrong." I'm surprised and disappointed by this.

Also, with something so difficult to judge (as you agree), I find it amazing that anyone could say that it definitely or clearly was or was not a deliberate stamp...

even the English fans in the pub I was at agreed that for this he got the red card...

Agreed that is what he was sent off for? Well, it was, according to the referee's report!

If you mean that it was a deliberate foul... then... again... some English fans think it was deliberate, some don't. Some non-English viewers think it was deliberate, some don't. I've already stated that opinion is divided, so I don't find this statement achieves anything.

To repeat: I both accept that I have national bias and accept that I may be wrong in my interpretation of events. The issue for me is that is appears as if only one of the two of us accepts these things about themself.

I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game

Yup, it was. Some have even said they thought it was the best game of the tournament.

Tonight's match between France and Portugal should be interesting, and there were some comments in the media by Gallas. Here's hoping France are on form and that the match is played fairly by both sides. This is one of the very few occasions that I'll actively cheer on France!

 

[bbloke]

Bad tactics by the Germans. Hoping for penalties.

And Italy certainly seemed worried about it going to penalties!

Too bad seeing how they were the host country and have a great (future) team.

True. I do feel a little sorry for them. And they have been good hosts so far to all the foreign fans.

 

[Ferdinand]

Just watching the France game - looks good till now - but I am for the Portugese (how do you write this, anyway?).
Ferdinand

 

[mw84]

Nice to see Portugal down at half time, what a shame they didn't get that penalty off Ronaldos obvious dive.

 

[bbloke]

Nice to see Portugal down at half time, what a shame they didn't get that penalty off Ronaldos obvious dive.

lol

The BBC have been describing Portugal's play as full of "disgraceful antics," which is about right. If companies could sponsor national teams, I think Speedo would sponsor Portugal!

France win 1-0. Not a great game, but France did enough, the Portguese didn't really threaten to score. Thank goodness the referee was not conned by the ridiculous acting...


So, France vs. Italy next!

 

[fryke]

I'd say the French played awfully, and the Portuguese weren't better. This wasn't really a good match by either team, I think. Sure, the French did "enough". But seeing that Argentina, Spain, England, Switzerland (who were clearly better than the French in the first round) and Germany are out, I truly feel that the final sees a team which I can't really agree with.

bbloke: I really didn't mean to talk down on you. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. And you're _right_, of course, in that I'm biased as well. I didn't want to imply that I'm some sort of neutral, all-knowing authority. I'm most certainly not. But football, I think, does favour such talk. As long as you're winning, you forget about the mistakes of your team. And the first things that come to mind when your team loses, are unfair players on the other side, referees, maybe the trainer and the last line would be your own team. That's how I feel most fans react. I _try_ to have a rational view. It's maybe easier for a Swiss, because the expectations aren't that high for my own team. And when I'm rooting for Portugal and Brazil, that's more enjoying their kind of football. Of course I'm also angry when they don't play fair or worse: If they play badly - and Brazil certainly did that. So did Portugal in the past two games.

Now... What's left? Italy showed me some good football. The Italy of old I didn't like. But it's the French who today played like the earlier Italy. So I hope that Italy can find a good and fair way to beat the French.

 

[bbloke]

Thanks, fryke. I think I can agree with most of that, and we'll move on. Water under the bridge now.

I think I have a strong sense of justice/fairplay, and this is why I get worked up over referees, regardless of who is actually playing. (OK, it's relative as people might disagree on what is fair and what is not, I just mean I place emphasis on the idea of "fairness.") Remember I was heavily criticizing an English referee in the tournament, too. I think that referees influence games so much, as bad decisions can massively sway the order of play and they set the tone by how disciplined they are, that I guess the stakes are high. This is the problem: they could, even perfectly innocently/accidentally, strongly influence the nature or outcome of the game. What if a referee accidentally blocked a crucial pass that was going to cut into a team's defence? And so on. If someone referees well, people won't remember them. If they referee badly, they will have their name recorded in stone.

As for tonight's game, I don't think France played well. They looked a bit off. I don't think the Portuguese played well, either, and I think it's a shame; they do have good players, but they can bring the game into disrepute by the way they play. If France want to beat Italy, I think they'll need to improve...

I'm not necessarily convinced that the final two teams were the best in the tournament, but that's the way these things go! Argentina really looked very strong, but lost to Germany. Germany were not highly rated initially, but really got going and looked unstoppable at points. Brazil had the ability, but never played well and were possibly guilty of arrogance. Spain looked great too, but fizzled out later. The Netherlands also looked great, but I couldn't stand the way they played later on, especially with Robben's behavior.

It's been an interesting tournament so far. Some great play, some... erm... not-so-great play. The number of bookings has been a bit of a joke and FIFA probably need to think about this again. All in all, it has been entertaining so far, and the Germans have been good hosts.

 

[Rhisiart]

Amazing the way the crowd booed C Ronaldo during the entire game. Ferguson will have his guts for garter.

 

[bbloke]

Amazing the way the crowd booed C Ronaldo during the entire game.

Agreed. He seems to be one very unpopular player at the moment. Unfortunately, it seems to be deserved. He's very talented and a bright hope for the future, but his game really needs cleaning up a lot. Mmm, I am concerned that if he continues to "play rather unfairly," he will eventually meet his match in terms of an opposing player who takes a dislike to his antics, where this opponent may also "play unfairly," but in a rather more physical way...... I think Ronaldo has to be careful, he may be a bit young-and-naive at the moment.

 

[mw84]

I agree bbloke. I am a Millwall fan myself and if he plays at The Den or somewhere similar (which I know isn't very likely anytime soon) but if he does, he's going to have a hard time playing the way he does. It won't only be from the players but the supporters also, who in general are a bit more 'critical' shall we say, than the average England fan.

 

[bbloke]

Oh my goodness, C. Ronaldo's been making bizarre comments in the media...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/teams/portugal/5153086.stm

But after Wednesday's match in Munich, which France won 1-0, Ronaldo, 21, said: "I was pleased about being booed.

"Maybe France fans were upset to see a dangerous player. I'm not worried."

Is he joking or does he just utterly not get it?...

Ronaldo preferred to focus on the performance of referee Jorge Larrionda, claiming the Uruguayan was biased against his side.

"We played well and did our best but the referee didn't help us," said the Manchester United player. ...

"Everyone who saw the match could see that the referee wasn't fair.

"He should have shown yellow cards but he did not because Portugal is a small country.

LOL

Yeah, wasn't fair in that Portugal didn't get yellow and red cards for the most disgusting acting! I'm not sure how he can complain for not getting awarded fouls when the camera showed dives without physical contact...

 

[reed]

A lot of "diving" with the Portugese but a tough nut to break all the same. Thuram/Barthez/Zidane..."the old folks" tops. Any thoughts on Italy/France anyone?

 

[bbloke]

A lot of "diving" with the Portugese but a tough nut to break all the same.

True. They have a good coach and they do have some talented players, but the "gamesmanship," shall we say, would not be used if it didn't make life more difficult for their opponents.

Thuram/Barthez/Zidane..."the old folks" tops. Any thoughts on Italy/France anyone?

I think Italy will be too much for them. France have the potential to be very good, and they played well against Brazil, but I don't think they can quite match Italy, if Italy play well. But, hey, there have been a number of surprises so far, so it will be difficult to predict the final winner!

 

[reed]

Indeed bbloke.
Who will be in the Blue Jersey Sunday seeing both teams are "les bleus." That was the comment from an Italien friend here. I won't even tell you how much a French Team jersey goes for now. If they are in stock. How things change very quickly when one is in the winner's circle. Even the Portugese here are putting them on.....except on Saturday for the third place. That may be a very good match. Cheers.