Attention Mac Pirates...
- Thread starter serpicolugnut
- Start date
Crusty
Registered
hmmm...maybe a look at the bigger picture...many of the pc users that i have come across who do have any mac experience at all say they wont switch because of the lack of software or delay thereof of the release for the mac...now dont jump all over me...i know macs rock..but this is the stand for many pc users...ok...now for the point...no software for the puter...no puter...get it...hmmm...as a mac user thats kinda scary...will i too be forced into the pc world because no photoshop or quark or illustrator programs for the mac...ouch..or worse yet no macs...double ouch.
just my two cents...spend it as u will
just my two cents...spend it as u will
serpicolugnut
OS X Supreme Being
Ouch. Looks like my suggestion not to pirate hit a little too close to home for someone.
In case you haven't noticed, MacOSX.com is everyones soapbox. With over 1000 posts to my credit, I'll have no problem climbing down off of it. However, since you only 60 or so posts, you might need someone to hold you hand as you get down off of it.
Randman
HA! HA! HA!
I agree. I can't see anyone in their right mind saying Apple and Mac users are going to suffer because of this. Adobe pulled an unprofitable product because it can't compete with FCP for a number of reasons already mentioned on this thread.
People get so freaky when they think that Apple's going under any moment. Look back at the threads that came out when M$ said it was dropping future IEs. Everyone assumed that meant Office as well. Well, for now, no, it's just that with Safari and other browsers, there's less interest from Mac users and IE doesn't make M$ any $.
As for the piracy issue, if Adobe was truly concerned, it would target PeeCee folks for sheer numbers and that mnay have the mindset that it's ok.
Having worked in SE Asia, I can tell you that it's easy (not as easy as it was a few years ago so some policing is happening) to get pirated software for the pc platform, but dang hard to find it for a Mac.
People get so freaky when they think that Apple's going under any moment. Look back at the threads that came out when M$ said it was dropping future IEs. Everyone assumed that meant Office as well. Well, for now, no, it's just that with Safari and other browsers, there's less interest from Mac users and IE doesn't make M$ any $.
As for the piracy issue, if Adobe was truly concerned, it would target PeeCee folks for sheer numbers and that mnay have the mindset that it's ok.
Having worked in SE Asia, I can tell you that it's easy (not as easy as it was a few years ago so some policing is happening) to get pirated software for the pc platform, but dang hard to find it for a Mac.
hulkaros
The Incredible...
Originally posted by tsizKEIK
nowadays its easier to buy pirated software for the pc (+ xbox/ps2) than going to the supermarket
lol
But in some "advanced" parts of this world you don't have to go to the supermarket. They have a home/office delivery
Pirates can't beat that, can they!?
pyroboy
Registered
Premier is dead on the Mac because FCP was a clearly superior product. I cannot think of anyone who uses the product anymore except my cousin and that's because the the instructors at his college designed the coursework around it.
I understand that it can be hard to compete with Apple when they have a product like Final Cut Pro, but the only one to blame about the demise of Premiere is Adobe. If the product was clearly superior to FCP, Adobe would sell plenty.
But it was always an inferior product. If it was a better product, it would force Apple to continue to be very innovative with Priemiere just to keep up. But that's not an issue. The biggest issue for Apple is to sway people in Hollywood that FCP is the only product that matters. If they can keep doing that, Premiere and Avid would also disappear from Windows as well.
Now if you will excuse me, I have some video footage to edit.
I understand that it can be hard to compete with Apple when they have a product like Final Cut Pro, but the only one to blame about the demise of Premiere is Adobe. If the product was clearly superior to FCP, Adobe would sell plenty.
But it was always an inferior product. If it was a better product, it would force Apple to continue to be very innovative with Priemiere just to keep up. But that's not an issue. The biggest issue for Apple is to sway people in Hollywood that FCP is the only product that matters. If they can keep doing that, Premiere and Avid would also disappear from Windows as well.
Now if you will excuse me, I have some video footage to edit.
Randman
HA! HA! HA!
Going back to the original claims, I think it's silly to say that piracy was the reason for Adobe's decision; or to claim that this means Adobe will be pulling away from the Mac platform completely, or that Apple will become passive now that it has a near-monopoly on the market.
serpicolugnut
OS X Supreme Being
In the case of Premiere, you are correct - piracy wasn't an issue. However, when looking at PS, AI or ID, piracy of these apps is quite significant. My estimate would probably put pirated copies of these apps on the Mac platform at about 50% worldwide. Sure, that number is probably smaller than the percentage and total numbers of pirated copies of Adobe PC apps, but the sales are larger on the PC side as well. On the Mac side, 50% lost to pirated sales could mean the difference between Adobe having a 15% Mac user base, which is what Premiere was, or a 30% user base, which is what AI/PS are about at. At 15%, Adobe deemed Premiere not important enough to continue development on. At 30%, that decision wouldn't have been made.
I'm not saying Adobe is dropping the Mac tomorrow, or the day after that. But look at the trend. Even though Premiere will probably not be missed on the Mac (since FCP is such a great product - now), it's demise means Adobe is that much less a Mac developer. 4 years ago, everything Adobe made was cross platform. Now, there are 6 applications (Audition, Encore, Premiere, PS Album, Acrobat Elements) that are PC only. My guess is that LiveMotion and Acrobat will be the next to be killed on the Mac. Sure, you might say good riddence to those apps as well since they haven't been stellar releases... But this trend will continue like a snowball rolling down hill, until one day you wake up and Adobe makes one or two applications (if that) for the Mac, and those apps future is in doubt too. With less competition, the remaining developers will not feel quite as pressured to develop killer Mac apps. Just "being there" on the platform will be considered good enough to bring in another 10-20% revenue. This is already a pervasive attitude at many cross platform developers. Anyone here using Lightwave will attest that Newtek has treated their Mac base as second class citizens until recently. Lightwave 7.5c is the 3rd major release of LW for OS X, and it's just now getting plugin parity with the Windows version.
This scenario is more than just speculation. It's happened already at several software developers over the last 10 years, and it could happen with Adobe as well.
I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom, because there are some positive trends occuring at the same time. But the point of my original post - that piracy hurts Mac software developers and jeopardizes future development on the Mac - is valid and should be considered next time you fire up your P2P client looking for warez.
I have a tendency to speak only when I have something to say. Boasting of 1000 posts on a message board is akin to taking pride in the fact that you talk a lot, and the 'soapbox' I was refering to was the one from which you were preaching from.In case you haven't noticed, MacOSX.com is everyones soapbox. With over 1000 posts to my credit, I'll have no problem climbing down off of it. However, since you only 60 or so posts, you might need someone to hold you hand as you get down off of it.
You are obviously entitled to your opinion and the right to express it here in these forums, but don't start preaching. Your message to us mac pirates is seeping with moral indignation and is based upon your personal beliefs, not fact. I take much offense to the way you presented your arguement, so I took a swing at you, the poster who has on average posted 1.24 posts per day since 03-20-2001. Ra for you.
It happens to be my opinion that technology would not be as widespread as it is today without piracy. Plus piracy is a boone for companies like Adobe. Their user base grows with every Joe Sixpack who teaches themselves PS7 with a cracked copy. It's just like no publicity is bad publicity, Adobe's user base of pirates insures their longevity. But I don't try and shove my beliefs down the throats of the users in this forum, and I will take offense to those who do. Keep your thoughts on Piracy to yourself and read the Board Rules while your at it.
No w@r3z - No asking for serialz, hackz, or warez, linking to them, discussing or anything related, including MP3z, Pr0n and related piracy items.
I hate people who do what I'm about to do, but I just can't help myself.
Stizz,
The entire point of this stupid board and others like it is to blab ad infinitum about stuff. It's a virtual soapbox. To ridicule someone for doing so is [insert cruel adjective here]. You're just asking for trouble for no good reason. Your comments have done nothing positive whatsoever for anyone. Thanks a lot.
This thread was moving along at a perfectly noble pace. Some of us respectuflly disagreed with Serp's position, but left it at that.
On a side note. Your preposterous "Keep your thoughts on piracy to yourself" statement is akin to some kind of cyber-book-burning. Heil Stizz! To make matters worse, and utterly hilarious, is that you ignorantly blaspheme Serp for "violating" some kind of nonexistent rule on discussing Piracy BY PREFACING IT WITH YOUR OPINIONS ON PIRACY! That was just plain brilliant.
Unbefreakinglievable.
Stizz,
The entire point of this stupid board and others like it is to blab ad infinitum about stuff. It's a virtual soapbox. To ridicule someone for doing so is [insert cruel adjective here]. You're just asking for trouble for no good reason. Your comments have done nothing positive whatsoever for anyone. Thanks a lot.
This thread was moving along at a perfectly noble pace. Some of us respectuflly disagreed with Serp's position, but left it at that.
On a side note. Your preposterous "Keep your thoughts on piracy to yourself" statement is akin to some kind of cyber-book-burning. Heil Stizz! To make matters worse, and utterly hilarious, is that you ignorantly blaspheme Serp for "violating" some kind of nonexistent rule on discussing Piracy BY PREFACING IT WITH YOUR OPINIONS ON PIRACY! That was just plain brilliant.
Unbefreakinglievable.
Randman
HA! HA! HA!
And just how did you come up with these numbers??? 50%? Every other version is pirated? From where?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating piracy at all. I full believe in supporting developers and paying for what I use. I'm just saying that your reasoning is quite off-base. Piracy is much higher on the peecee side but you don't hear companies say they'll only build for the Mac platform to prevent people from using their stuff without shilling out.
Basically Adobe has streamlined its Mac lineup. It sounds like good market sense, especially in tough economic conditions worldwide. This way it concentrates its efforts on apps that do generate revenue.
Piracy hurts everyone except those selling and using the pirated goods. But I don't think a thread that starts ATTENTION MAC PIRATES is going to stop those people from using warez any more than a thread advocating piracy (if allowed on this forum) is going to get people to start looking for cracked versions of PS.
Not trying to rip you, for I think parts of your argument (piracy is bad) are quite valid, it's just that other parts are questionable, imho.
serpicolugnut
OS X Supreme Being
Funny how you've been the only one to feel I was "preaching". I simply made an observation that piracy is hurting Mac software development. Apparently it hit a little close to home with you, because you seem a bit irate over it. Oh well. I never claimed to give everybody the warm fuzzies....
Thanks for re-enforcing my first amendment rights. I feel much better now. My message about piracy was based on facts, not opinions.
Fact - Every piece of pirated software in use is lost revenue to a software developer. You can rationalize it till the cows come home, but if it's being used, and it wasn't paid for it, it's stolen goods.
Fact - The smaller ecosystem of the Mac platform is more fragile than the PC platform, and can't sustain large numbers of piracy without consequences. Those consequences usually turn out to be consolidation on one platform - Windows, leaving us Mac users with fewer software choices. This wasn't the determining factor in Premieres demise on the Mac, but could be in other software in the future. Look at Microsoft Office for the Mac. It's probably one of the most pirated Mac apps. Many Mac users who wouldn't normally pirate an app, will pirate Office because they feel that MS is evil (I agree, but that's another topic). Microsoft is going to look at their Mac sales one day, and if they aren't making significiant income on the product, it's going to be killed. Would the Mac survive without Office? Probably. Would the loss be significant? Definitely. Apple would have a harder time sellling to corporate customers than it already has. Sales would be lower. The notion that Apple is dying would be constantly bandied about in the press. And other developers would become concerened over developing for the Mac.
It happens to be your opinion, and it's wrong. Your statement "Adobe's user base of pirates insures their longevity" assumes that Adobe can make money so long as everybody is using their software, and whether they pay for it is irrelevent. Well, without the money from the sale of PS7, Adobe will have a hard time rationalizing continued development of the application. Adobe's employees don't work for the goal of having everybody use Photoshop. They work for the goal of having the most people possible buy and use Photoshop.
I continually hear this argument from students trying to justify piracy. When I was younger I bought in to this rationalization as well. Trouble is, I was wrong then, as you are now.
Students don't make as much money as professionals do, and buying software is much harder for them to do. The average student cannot afford the $699 price of Adobe Photoshop, so they opt to steal it instead, with the justification that it's just until they learn the application so they can make money and buy their own copy.
Here's the problem. Every software developer makes available Education discounts, that are substantial. Most of Adobe and Macromedia's apps can be had for under $100 to any student, teacher, or faculty of an education institution. I now students will still cry poverty and claim that's too much. These are the same ones who will drop $60 at a time on music CDs or spend $50 on a night of drinking with friends, so I don't buy it.
The other problem is that students who learn on pirated copies just don't learn the value of the tool they are using. They don't appreciate it. Most pirates don't wake up one day and finally decide to become legit (some do, most dont).
And finally, it just hurts the entire graphic design business. When a student with a pirated copy bids on a job, he doesn't have the same overhead that a legit professional designer has. The student can lowball on the job due to no overhead. Pretty soon, you have lots of psuedo designers undercutting pros, and the entire perception of what a designer is worth has been reduced. Think this is far-fetched? It's already happened. Just about every job I bid on I go up against somebody's cousin/friends son/etc who low balls a bid and doesn't have the skillset, but has a pirated copy of <insert pro app here> and thinks they can build a website/design a catalog/make a promo video/etc. Thankfully I have a decent portfolio and can justify my costs. But I have lost clients to these lowballers (as have others) and it does hurt the entire industry.
Really, which do you think Adobe would rather have - 100 people pirating their app saying how wonderful it is (your "good publicity statement", or 10 people who paid for the app. In the former, Adobe doesn't make a dime. In the latter, they make over $6999 (based on $699 for PS7). I'm not sure what business classes you've taken, but I'm pretty sure you can appreciate that $6999 in income is much better than $0 and a bit of praise.
Finally, Randman asks:
That was my worldwide figure estimate. It was based upon taking the two major markets for software - the US and Asia, and averaging their piracy nubmers last stated by the BSA. Piracy in the USA is about every 1 in 3 copies - 33%. Piracy in Asia is at an astounding 95%. So my estimate was based upon averaging these figures together. Yes, it's hardly hard science, but it's probably in the ball park. Of course, it could be as low as 33%, or as high as 80-90%, when you factor in other markets like S. America, Europe, Austrailia, etc. But for simplicities sake, I just averaged the two biggest markets.
tsizKEIK
its all about HOUSE music
im leavin on vacation 2morrow and unfortunately i dont have time to read all of this thread. its a shame because as i skimmed through the pages it seems there are very interestin opinions
from my point of view:
piratin does hurt every1. more piratin --> less profit for future developement ---> less improvement in future products
in the end its worse for us users
that i why i payed $129 to update to Jaguar, to get a better panther in the future etc...
on the other hand, products such as Photoshop or Corel Draw are quite expensive.. if i lived in a country such a Sweden where u get discounts for students id buy no pirated software. but here in Greece u can barely find any original software for MAcs
i dont have any more time...
i know my throughts are kind of scrambled and incomplete... anyways...
MACS rule
from my point of view:
piratin does hurt every1. more piratin --> less profit for future developement ---> less improvement in future products
in the end its worse for us users
that i why i payed $129 to update to Jaguar, to get a better panther in the future etc...
on the other hand, products such as Photoshop or Corel Draw are quite expensive.. if i lived in a country such a Sweden where u get discounts for students id buy no pirated software. but here in Greece u can barely find any original software for MAcs
i dont have any more time...
i know my throughts are kind of scrambled and incomplete... anyways...
MACS rule
Randman
HA! HA! HA!
Those numbers are laughable. Enron couldn't cook up numbers like that. 1 in 3 in the US? And 95% of Asia? As I said earlier, I worked in Singapore for 3 years as a graphic designer and there's no way in hell that figure could be close, even for p2p music or PC apps.
As I've also said before, I agree with your anti-piracy stance 100% (or at least 95%), but the logic you give to make you points is pretty hard to swallow.
First, you claimed that Adobe pulled Premiere due to Mac piracy, then you said Apple had no incentive to continue innovating its product line. You've also said that the entire platform could be jeopardized by piracy. And I have to, respectfully, disagree.
Prices may be passed on to consumers to combat piracy, but I don't see how the Apple platform could be jeopardised.
Unless you took BSA numbers which would probably claim that 90% of computers owners are Mac only with Linux at 6.5% and "others" rounding out the figure, piracy on the Apple platform is but a drop in the bucket compared to the Dark Side.
Yeah, it's there, but a small number compared to the warez found on the M$ side.
You mention Office as a Mac product often pirated. Yes, there are pirated copies which force M$ to raise the price for the rest of us who pay for it. But as many copies are pirated, many, many more are purchased because it's a good product. M$ won't kill the product because some cheap bastards rather get a cracked version on the sly. But the company might if Apple (or another developer) comes up with something as good (or better) for a fair price.
But for argument's sake, let's say M$ did drop Office tomorrow. You don't think there'd be a gaggle of developers salivating for a piece of the pie, even if some crumbs are stolen? The void would be filled.
Piracy is bad, mmmkay? But many if your arguments in this thread are quite off-base. Best thing to do to stem piracy is if every Mac person could get just one peecee peep to switch over to the good guys since the Jolly Roger doesn't fly as high or as far on the Apple side.
As I've also said before, I agree with your anti-piracy stance 100% (or at least 95%), but the logic you give to make you points is pretty hard to swallow.
First, you claimed that Adobe pulled Premiere due to Mac piracy, then you said Apple had no incentive to continue innovating its product line. You've also said that the entire platform could be jeopardized by piracy. And I have to, respectfully, disagree.
Prices may be passed on to consumers to combat piracy, but I don't see how the Apple platform could be jeopardised.
Unless you took BSA numbers which would probably claim that 90% of computers owners are Mac only with Linux at 6.5% and "others" rounding out the figure, piracy on the Apple platform is but a drop in the bucket compared to the Dark Side.
Yeah, it's there, but a small number compared to the warez found on the M$ side.
You mention Office as a Mac product often pirated. Yes, there are pirated copies which force M$ to raise the price for the rest of us who pay for it. But as many copies are pirated, many, many more are purchased because it's a good product. M$ won't kill the product because some cheap bastards rather get a cracked version on the sly. But the company might if Apple (or another developer) comes up with something as good (or better) for a fair price.
But for argument's sake, let's say M$ did drop Office tomorrow. You don't think there'd be a gaggle of developers salivating for a piece of the pie, even if some crumbs are stolen? The void would be filled.
Piracy is bad, mmmkay? But many if your arguments in this thread are quite off-base. Best thing to do to stem piracy is if every Mac person could get just one peecee peep to switch over to the good guys since the Jolly Roger doesn't fly as high or as far on the Apple side.
serpicolugnut
OS X Supreme Being
Here's the BSA figures on piracy...
In America...
From the site: "With an already-low piracy rate the lowest in the world the rate in North America declined moderately, from 32% in 1994 to 24% in 2002. The 2002 U.S. piracy rate of 23% is a drop of eight points from 31% in 1994, still the lowest of all countries worldwide."
In China/Asia...
From the site: "Chinas piracy rate showed modest improvement. Its rate changed only five points, from 97% in 1994 to 92% in 2002."
So the figures of 1 in 3 in America and 95% in Asia were a little outdated, but still pretty accurate.
Absolutely. But the PC side is bolstered by sheer volume. Look at this hypothetical scenario...
Say Adobe's product piracy rate is 50% the Mac, and for arguments sake, 75% for the PC. Adobe sells 100,000 copies of app for PC, 20,000 for the Mac. Although the piracy rate on the Mac is less, it still hurts the Mac sales more because of the lower overall numbers. The PC side can withstand the effects of piracy better due to sheer overall volume.
See previous - I stated that piracy probably didn't contriubute to Premieres demise. As for Apple/innovation - time will tell. Competition is the number one incentive for continued innovation. No competition, usually means less innovation. Will Apple buck the trend? I hope so. But for proof of this, just look to MS. They do their best work when they are trying to beat their competition in to submission. Once they achieve this goal, their products become stale and boring.
Probably. Then again, Apple would probably release their own Office suite, and the smaller developers who filled the void in the interim would be crushed. But that's left to another discussion....
In America...
From the site: "With an already-low piracy rate the lowest in the world the rate in North America declined moderately, from 32% in 1994 to 24% in 2002. The 2002 U.S. piracy rate of 23% is a drop of eight points from 31% in 1994, still the lowest of all countries worldwide."
In China/Asia...
From the site: "Chinas piracy rate showed modest improvement. Its rate changed only five points, from 97% in 1994 to 92% in 2002."
So the figures of 1 in 3 in America and 95% in Asia were a little outdated, but still pretty accurate.
Absolutely. But the PC side is bolstered by sheer volume. Look at this hypothetical scenario...
Say Adobe's product piracy rate is 50% the Mac, and for arguments sake, 75% for the PC. Adobe sells 100,000 copies of app for PC, 20,000 for the Mac. Although the piracy rate on the Mac is less, it still hurts the Mac sales more because of the lower overall numbers. The PC side can withstand the effects of piracy better due to sheer overall volume.
See previous - I stated that piracy probably didn't contriubute to Premieres demise. As for Apple/innovation - time will tell. Competition is the number one incentive for continued innovation. No competition, usually means less innovation. Will Apple buck the trend? I hope so. But for proof of this, just look to MS. They do their best work when they are trying to beat their competition in to submission. Once they achieve this goal, their products become stale and boring.
Probably. Then again, Apple would probably release their own Office suite, and the smaller developers who filled the void in the interim would be crushed. But that's left to another discussion....