BILL & HP copy APPLE Design

Given the success of the entire Mac line there's no doubt that people will try to emulate it as much as possible. There have been numerous attempts to create something other than the "beige box". None of those attempts has succeeded. I can't think of any one brand that has any kind of long running design success. Every time I go to Costco it seems as though there is an entirely new line up of wintel boxes. All of them trying to distinguish themselves visually.

It is interesting that Bill is showing an interest in the design side of computers and that he is beginning to push a cohesive "digital" whatever. Up til now M$ has had a less than stellar lineup when it comes to a digital hub. I can't think of any one product or line of products that has taken the pc world by storm.

Apple has the definitive advantage in that it controls the hardware and the software.
 
Originally posted by Anim8r
T...Dual monitor support has been available on the mac since... well the SE (80's). In fact the macs back then supported up to 6 monitors. You just plug in another card. They don't even have to be from the same manufacturer. Ever try that on Windows?...

Six display cards in an SE :eek: !?! Now that would be a sight :D Guess the cards were velcroed to the exterior of the case and chained together with a ribbon cable ;) That and the speed would have been atrocious since the cpu wouldn't even have come close to being able to keep up with all that info. Now daisy chaining six SE's with Appletalk, now that was/is doable and having some amount of screen synchronization. You could do some cool video wall effects with that, even back then.

One of the biggest problems with Windoze has been it's too tight integration with it's video drivers. This allows for some very impressive performance numbers, but it makes writing good quality drivers more difficult and makes extending the display subsystem substantially harder (hence the up till now rarity of going dual displays and the impossibility to do it in a heterogenous video card setup). But then again, from a software design standpoint, the lack of clear delineation between various levels of functionality is a general weakness of the entire platform (e.g. IE).
 
Originally posted by Ugg
...
It is interesting that Bill is showing an interest in the design side of computers and that he is beginning to push a cohesive "digital" whatever. Up til now M$ has had a less than stellar lineup when it comes to a digital hub. I can't think of any one product or line of products that has taken the pc world by storm.

Apple has the definitive advantage in that it controls the hardware and the software.

Actually I think that there are three primary reasons that Billy Boy is taking a keen interest in hardware design recently:

1 - Linux. The more you ingrain the software with the hardware, the more difficult it is for other OS's to offer similar levels of functionality in a timely fashion.

2 - Less Pressure From the Feds. Now that the govt has basically screwed the pooch with this whole M$ monopoly thing, they don't feel they have the IBM spector above their heads (i.e. IBM got slammed mightily for controlling both software and hardware, hence the rise of M$ to begin with). They no longer fear the govt and therefore have no problems with letting those tentacles reach a little further.

3 - Sony. M$ is losing the console wars, badly. If Sony is ever successful in pushing the Playstation platform beyond the console, then M$ needs to be able to respond, and XBox ain't it.
 
Originally posted by cellfish
... While Firewire 2 is not on PC's (not that anyone really cares),
...Bluetooth as well first on PC,
...iLife nobody cares,
...To be completely honest about your last comment, I find networking WAY easier on the PC than on the Mac.

. so ur sayin that u wouldnt like firewire2 on ur PC ? wouldnt u prefer having external device (say a hard disk) with firewire 2 instead of usb 2(which is much slower)??? if u dont than then i think ur a masochist :) and anyway who cares bout u ? im sure Real pros do need firewire 2!!!

. nobody cares about iLife? that would be because u have better apps on the PC(right??) ? could u care to name them?

.have u actually hade any job experience with a network of PCs ??? im sure ud encounter many problems :) (thats not called easier)


ohhh.. and in the long run . it doesnt really matter who brings in new technologies to our computers. what matters is who takes advantage of them and who makes it easier to use! ive got sony ericsson p800. ive tried the bluetooth on the pc. it doesnt really work. any problems on my mac ??? the answer is NO :) thats all folks !!!
 
You AND Cellfish name a Wintel that has the things that the Apple has in PowerMacs as well as the cost for that config... Oh, and name the companies too! Then go ahead and buy that thing actually and then we can have a REAL debate about ease of use, support of new technologies and innovations...

Because BinaryDigit and Cellfish you NEVER worked on a similar Wintels cause if you had you would really know that your replies are... Well, to put it nice:
- Inexperienced

But maybe that's because you BinaryDigit use Windows 2000 instead of Windows XPerience... Heck, you should have used XP more in order to upgrade your XPerience points...

:p

:D

As for USB, if you doubt that it lived on the Wintel side because of iMac then I guess the world is flat for you too! USB on the Wintels before the iMac it was just another port in the back of Wintels!!! :p But your reply to USB PLUS all the other replies shows how really open minded the open minded people like you and Cellfish really are... :rolleyes:

As for the OS/2 thing it isn't even from M$ AND the M$ did their best in order to kill it... But the thing you mention, could you redirect me to more info... Because, frankly I have a 486/80MHz running OS/2 Warp 3 and I can install anytime Warp 4 and I never saw the OS do the minimize effect showing real time the contents of a given app... :confused:
 
This is somewhat off topic (considering it doesn't have much to do with PC / Mac stats.. or, umm, why one is better than the other..)

Just that, when I saw this image:
hp_appleclone.jpg


I immediatly thought of this (like, their inspiration..):
hp_appleclone_inspiration.jpg


^_~

Anyways, just wanted to share that 4 minute photoshop piece with you guys... (yes, I felt proud of the work...)

Feel free to commence the PC/Mac arguments.
 
Originally posted by cellfish
PC users demand a lot.
Yes they do. Like when I was working on my PC last night. I demanded that Windows not completely ruin a huge school project (that was due the next day) and destroy 11 hours of painfully detailed and hard work, then decide that the video capture device that had worked fine for the past 5 days didn't exist anymore, all at 11:00 PM. Windows failed me. And my Apple just plain doesn't. It's an operating system that listens to me, and most of all, it's an operating system that knows when devices are plugged in.

On a side note, I'm excited to see this Microsoft/HP thing. I hope I can get my mother to replace our old dell with one, so then maybe my video editing projects would work (they might actually go at a reasonable speed too :eek: )


lol, and funny photoshop j79. :)
 
Originally posted by binaryDigit
Six display cards in an SE :eek: !?! Now that would be a sight :D Guess the cards were velcroed to the exterior of the case and chained together with a ribbon cable ;) That and the speed would have been atrocious since the cpu wouldn't even have come close to being able to keep up with all that info. Now daisy chaining six SE's with Appletalk, now that was/is doable and having some amount of screen synchronization. You could do some cool video wall effects with that, even back then.

One of the biggest problems with Windoze has been it's too tight integration with it's video drivers. This allows for some very impressive performance numbers, but it makes writing good quality drivers more difficult and makes extending the display subsystem substantially harder (hence the up till now rarity of going dual displays and the impossibility to do it in a heterogenous video card setup). But then again, from a software design standpoint, the lack of clear delineation between various levels of functionality is a general weakness of the entire platform (e.g. IE).

Sorry... I forget you young whippersnappers don't know what it was like.
There were two commercially available card cages for the SE and SE-30 that added up to 6 additional card slots. Both were SCSI and had a high enough data transfer rate to allow for color video cards.
Let's also not forget that display graphics were not what they are today. The speed was just fine.
I believe the SE version came with a card interface as well.
Yeah, the Appletalk networking was fun... I remember the energizer bunny hack from way back.... used to make the bunny march across sequential screens in a network banging his frickin' drum. You never knew when it was going to get back to your screen.
 
You're right, anerki, and we don't like those.

I'm closing this thread now for this reason, and also because there doesn't seem to be a 'right' other forum to move the thread to. This is Apple News & Rumors, and this thread certainly isn't that.
 
Okay... I revise my 'judgement-too-fast' of before and reopen this in opinions...
 
There are plenty of reasons to use both Mac and PC, it's all about personal taste, but most people who've experienced Mac choose Mac ... Why? Their choice, they can ask for advice, it happens a lot on Macosx.com but please, respect peoples opinions ... If they want to use PC instead or Mac, let them! Fanatical Mac-users aren't going to change the world ... 'Nuance' is a beautiful world (translation to English plz? [Toast, you're the expert here])

Windows copied a lot from Mac ... Mac copied a lot from Windows I'm sure ... (Where did control-click and tabs and all that stuff come from, thin air?). Let it be, it was said somehwere in this thread: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ...) If something is good or succesful, why be angry about it when PC copies it, why be afraid it will affect Mac? Just let it be, that's the way it is, that's the way it will always be ...

(Cough, so much for the lecture ;))

Grtz,
.FJ
 
Originally posted by hulkaros
You AND Cellfish name a Wintel that has the things that the Apple has in PowerMacs as well as the cost for that config... Oh, and name the companies too! Then go ahead and buy that thing actually and then we can have a REAL debate about ease of use, support of new technologies and innovations...

Because BinaryDigit and Cellfish you NEVER worked on a similar Wintels cause if you had you would really know that your replies are... Well, to put it nice:
- Inexperienced

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you asking for a PC config that is similar to a PowerMac config and then looking at the price? I wouldn't be surprised that you would end up paying pretty close to the PM after adding 802.11g, Gb ethernet, and Bluetooth. At least a lot closer than what some PC folk would claim. But in any case, we were never talking about that. We were talking about "innovation" and I just pointed out that quite a bit of the hardware in current PMs originated in the PC world. What type of "experience" are you referring to? How many years of experience do you have? How do you know how much experience I do? Just because I actually successfully use Wintels and you don't, therefore I can't be as big of a user as you?


But maybe that's because you BinaryDigit use Windows 2000 instead of Windows XPerience... Heck, you should have used XP more in order to upgrade your XPerience points...


True, I just started using XP at work two weeks ago. Personally I think the interface sucks, I have most of the XP features turned off and use classic mode. But why would I want to change when Win2K has worked so well?


As for USB, if you doubt that it lived on the Wintel side because of iMac then I guess the world is flat for you too! USB on the Wintels before the iMac it was just another port in the back of Wintels!!! :p But your reply to USB PLUS all the other replies shows how really open minded the open minded people like you and Cellfish really are... :rolleyes:


No I don't doubt it, I know it. If you read my reply I said that the iMac popularized the port, though pc's shipped with the port first. Are you saying I'm incorrect, if not, what is the purpose of the flat world remark? And would you care to be more specific about the second part? Exactly what did I say that was "wrong" to lead to your second statement. It would help things if you would address specific issues vs making generalizations.


As for the OS/2 thing it isn't even from M$ AND the M$ did their best in order to kill it... But the thing you mention, could you redirect me to more info... Because, frankly I have a 486/80MHz running OS/2 Warp 3 and I can install anytime Warp 4 and I never saw the OS do the minimize effect showing real time the contents of a given app... :confused:


Isn't even from M$? M$ originally wrote OS/2. IBM didn't take over development until after the "rift". 3.0 was the first version that IBM released on their own.

As for the icon modification, take a look at the clock app. When you minimize it, you have the ability to have it show a miniature version of the clock face. This is actually very simple to do, as when you get the message telling you to minimize, you can grab the window handle of the icon window, then you're free to do whatever you want. One of the apps actually showed a miniature version of the document that you were working on, though I can't remember off hand which app it was. I'll take a look and see if I can find more info for you.
 
Originally posted by ebolag4
*Puts hands up to screen to warm up.*

Well I hope that I'm not doing too much providing of marshmellow combustion. hulkie and I just, well, we have this thing ;) and I do have a tendency to get sucked in. I just have this thing about people making statements that don't seem to be based in fact, or at least sound reason.

Anyway, I wish other people would chime in, one way or the other. I try not to Apple bash, but I'm not going to blow Apple sunshine either. Ditto M$. Do you feel that I'm being off base. Should I just shut up (as if I could ;) ).

Just kinda curious what others think (other than being amused/annoyed).
 
Originally posted by binaryDigit
Well I hope that I'm not doing too much providing of marshmellow combustion. hulkie and I just, well, we have this thing ;) and I do have a tendency to get sucked in.

:p :D ;) :)
 
Originally posted by binaryDigit
Not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you asking for a PC config that is similar to a PowerMac config and then looking at the price? I wouldn't be surprised that you would end up paying pretty close to the PM after adding 802.11g, Gb ethernet, and Bluetooth. At least a lot closer than what some PC folk would claim. But in any case, we were never talking about that. We were talking about "innovation" and I just pointed out that quite a bit of the hardware in current PMs originated in the PC world. What type of "experience" are you referring to? How many years of experience do you have? How do you know how much experience I do? Just because I actually successfully use Wintels and you don't, therefore I can't be as big of a user as you?

I'm trying to say that Wintel companies were and still play it and safe... For the masses they have the low end stuff and even when you WANT to buy advanced stuff most of them do not offer them... When you want advanced features mostly you custom build your own solution therefore YOU the user is the one who innovates and NOT the Wintel platform in general... And just because stuff originated from Wintel world that doesn't neccesary means that Wintel in general innovates... For example they still aren't abandoning the PS/2, com, lpt, floppy, BIOS, IRQs, etc in order to go ahead with something better :rolleyes: As for succesfully using Wintels, you know what? Good for you... I not only use them but fix them as well... Software, hardware wise and then some... Maybe you too! In any case that doesn't matter! Because in the end I have the access on fixing Macs too and I know that both in using and fixing a Mac everything is just so damn easier... I still wait even for the most advance offerings from the Wintel world to be even close to Macs overall... If you think otherwise I cannot say anythink to convince you! You have your experiences, I have mine...

True, I just started using XP at work two weeks ago. Personally I think the interface sucks, I have most of the XP features turned off and use classic mode. But why would I want to change when Win2K has worked so well?

I cannot dissagree to that because frankly I find the Windows 2000 platform (all Win2K products) to be more mature and stable compared to newer products like XP and 2003 Server... However, based on my profession I get the chance to use everything even if I don't like to do so :p :D

No I don't doubt it, I know it. If you read my reply I said that the iMac popularized the port, though pc's shipped with the port first. Are you saying I'm incorrect, if not, what is the purpose of the flat world remark? And would you care to be more specific about the second part? Exactly what did I say that was "wrong" to lead to your second statement. It would help things if you would address specific issues vs making generalizations.

You previously said:
"What the iMac DID do was to create a market for these peripherals and accelerated the adoption of usb"
This is not the case... The USB on the Wintel pre-iMac era was just a port on the Wintels and even most of them DIDN'T have it... You had to go on more exotic mainboards in order to have it... The majority of companies pre-iMac didn't even care... Then all of a sudden post-iMac EVERY single Wintel company wanted to offer USB solutions... Therefore iMac not only accelerated the adoption but actually introduced and continously showed how cool USB actually is... And if you prefer iMac actually taught them how to build and support USB solutions... Damn, even the majority of USB Wintel products looked like iMac too!

Isn't even from M$? M$ originally wrote OS/2. IBM didn't take over development until after the "rift". 3.0 was the first version that IBM released on their own.

No, it isn't! It was a joint OS solution with IBM which M$ actually dropped from before even v2.0 of OS/2 not 3.0... v3.0 of OS/2 just took OS/2 to a whole new level! And this shows what ANY company can do if it hasn't M$ to hold them back... And yes, we all know that OS/2 3 and 4 do even nowadays things that Windows still CANNOT do... Still, too many fixpacks to handle :p ;)

As for the icon modification, take a look at the clock app. When you minimize it, you have the ability to have it show a miniature version of the clock face. This is actually very simple to do, as when you get the message telling you to minimize, you can grab the window handle of the icon window, then you're free to do whatever you want. One of the apps actually showed a miniature version of the document that you were working on, though I can't remember off hand which app it was. I'll take a look and see if I can find more info for you.

Come one BinaryDigit... This is isn't across the OS/2 functions and is barely like the universal OS X's minimize funtion... It is like saying that Dock is the same thing like OS/2 v3 launchbar! :rolleyes:
 
USB in WINDOWS before 1997. Yes for the x86PC (by the way PC=Personal Computer. Isn't an Apple a personal computer?) but what Windows could you use it for, NT? No, until they released a service pack that you pay for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Windows 95 have no USB support? Wasn't support held back until Win98? Humm......:confused:
 
Originally posted by Satcomer
USB in WINDOWS before 1997. Yes for the x86PC (by the way PC=Personal Computer. Isn't an Apple a personal computer?) but what Windows could you use it for, NT? No, until they released a service pack that you pay for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Windows 95 have no USB support? Wasn't support held back until Win98? Humm......:confused:

Sometime at 1997 M$ released Win95 OSR2 which is, if you prefer Win95 Second Edition that offered a limited USB support... It wasn't before the release of Windows 98 that USB started to appear for Wintels... Still, as I said you could find exotic solutions from Wintel companies in order to have a go with Win95 OSR2! Anyways, BinaryDigit no matter what he thinks he knows/believes he cannot remake computer history (hey, maybe Gates but BinaryDigit isn't Gates!? :rolleyes: )... And the computer history says that Wintel should thank again and again Apple for saving their USB bottoms :p

The same with the Internet! When Bill Gates said at 1995-1996 that Internet is nothing it was a great moment for Wintels... Then all of a sudden at 1997-1998 and after seeing what other companies offered and especially Apple with its iMac line, M$ discovered the Internet... Welcome to the real world! The world that Wintel truly innovates and Apple copies... :rolleyes: Damn, it wasn't even before the release of Windows 98SE that M$ actually had something to say about the Internet... Before that, hmmm :rolleyes:

If you ask me M$ had its act together with the release of Windows 2000 products family about the Internet, USB and many other technologies that under the heavy hacking of Windows 9x and Windows ME those technologies could literally crash the whole system at any given time and even without actually doing anything!!! :mad: Hench the infinite BSOD screens that people talk all of the time... :cool:
 
...I concluded to that... M$ cannot do anything without Apple "experimenting" first!

The effects that they used on those demos were nice but they were screaming OS X that it was to difficult for me not to post here the following...

I have 2 small 320 sized videos running TRANSPARENT above one running 480 sized video doubled in size, while one other 480 video was running minimized while I had other apps like Safari loading web pages, Mail, et al all TRANSPARENT as well... All at the same time of having a DVD playing TOO maximum size TRANSPARENT behind all these...

Now, before anyone will say how this and that I will simply say that I have WindowShade X installed, 512 of RAM and a TiBook of only a 1000MHz...

Anyways, take a look and if you will see those tech demos for LongHorn next time don't despair... OS X rules right here, right now... :p :D ;) :)

NOTE
--------
Because I could not grab the screen while the DVD was running I closed the DVD player but believe me it runs more than fine... :cool:
 

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