BootCamp run Windows on Mac

[Captain Code]

Dvorak is going to claim he's right after all that Apple is now switching to Windows

The Mac will be the ultimate development machine. Once the iBook replacements come out this year I'm going to be putting Windows on it since I get it for free through my school anyways(Evil MS ) but probably won't use it that much in Windows. It'll just be there in case I need it.

I hope that Apple really does get virtualization going because that'd impress a lot of Windows people that the Mac can do that. They go gawgaw over Expose, imagine just launching Windows in a window on the screen at native speed or running Windows on a second monitor and OS X on the other.

 

[Cat]

On the other hand, 80% of people will get it wrong.

As we are playing the quote-a-random-number game, I'll go on the record as saying "80% of people will not care". But the 20% who _do_ care are designers, coders, alpha geeks who will happily ditch their PC's and get a Mac.

The new Apple Macintosh with Intel CoreDuo processors: it's the only machine capable of running all major Operating Systems. If they manage to squeeze out Leopard before X-mas shopping spree, marketshare will make quite a jump between November and January.

 

[HateEternal]

I'm pretty pumped, defintely a good move for Apple.

On the negative side, now I really want to dump my G5 and PC laptop for a MacBook Pro!! Dammit, this is the last thing I need right now! I was just starting to get comfortable with my current setup!

They need to make a smaller MacBook anyways, I <3 the size of my Acer, 12 inches < 1 inch thin and 3 lbs. That is the way protable computers should be. However if I were to replace my desktop, the bigger computer would be accepetable... especially with that sexy 15 inch display.

 

[Veljo]

This comes as a complete shock to me, but I'm loving it. It'll make Macs so much more appealing. Apple just need to market this right.

 

[lordmantown]

Interesting news I think. Bit of a suprise but I know at least one person who I can blag into buying a mac now!

Will be good to see how it all integrates. eg. will the 'pictures' folder mean a pc user could have all their pictures stored how they are used to, only to discover when they boot in osx that they suddenly get to use all the iLife apps, with no need to import anything etc. Does that makes sense?

Basically, a PC user may suddenly wonder why they never switched before.

Also it will be interesting to see when Leopard ships in relation to Vista. From what I understand Vista will need a good PC to run to it's full pottential... I would laugh very much if people find Macs run Vista better than PCs?

Surely that could happen... if all the speed test things are right and it runs natively...

So... buy a mac that runs 3 operating systems... and Vista really well... and you get the iLife stuff... or get a filthy grey door stop.

Nice.

 

[Mikuro]

Even with this development, I'm still hoping for VPC. I'd much rather use Windows 98 or even 95 than XP, personally, and I don't have nearly enough use for Windows to justify shutting down OS X for it.

All I really want with a decently-performing Windows installation is the ability to play games. And I'm not talking about you young whippersnappers' fancy-schmancy three-dee games. I'm talking about good ol' DOS games, mostly. Some newer games, too, but nothing that needs a >500MHz processor. VPC (for PPC) has such terrible sound and video support that it's useless even for ancient games. DOSbox has awesome compatibility, but it's dog slow (on PPC).

But Windows XP is not as valuable for this purpose as Windows 95 or 98. I might end up running VPC under Windows to emulate an older version of Windows, and MAN that is just messed up.

 

[Perseus]

Are we forgetting that "PC people" may just still see Apple computers as being way too expensive?

I still don't understand why a company like Adobe (or anyone else) would continue to make software for OS X when Windows is available?

 

[fryke]

Well, some "PC people" will _always_ claim Apple's computers are too expensive. And compared to build-your-own no-brand PCs, they certainly are. But then again, that's a whole different discussion and a very bad comparison.

Adobe will continue to make Adobe Software for Mac OS X as long as enough people want to have Adobe Software on Mac OS X. Whether a Mac user _can_ also theoretically buy 300 USD operating system software to run Windows does not matter to Adobe as much as how good _sales_ are on the Mac platform (running OS X, of course, since that defines the "Mac platform"...).

 

[maz94protege]

Thats crazy, i dont have an intel mac yet, or maybe never will, but im dowloading it just to save it for later.....i remember the old macintosh's used to say "WINDOWS COMPATABLE" on them for Win 3.1 but that was over 10years ago. I bet in another few months we may see WINXP Compatable on the new macs....

INSANE

 

[eric2006]

Thats crazy, i dont have an intel mac yet, or maybe never will, but im dowloading it just to save it for later.....i remember the old macintosh's used to say "WINDOWS COMPATABLE" on them for Win 3.1 but that was over 10years ago. I bet in another few months we may see WINXP Compatable on the new macs....

INSANE

Yep, they'll have to add all kinds of warning stickers to the intel-macs with this new development.

 

[powermac]

Not sure how I feel. In short, I am afraid people, other than us, are going to treat OSX as a novelty, and few people are going to invest in OSX. Developers slack off on OSX versions of software, coupled with poor support & updates. Eventually, as cost efficient as it is for companies, lets have one team of developers working on one version of our product.
I understand that Apple is a Hardware company. Their bottom line is sales of their computers, and other hardware products. If there is little reason to use OSX, in reality how many non-Mac people are going to purchase a Mac to run windows?
Just some ranting.

 

[dave17lax]

I do think there are a lot of people that would love to get a mac, even ones that aren't developers, designers, etc. I've got 3 people in mind that I told today- not that they will run out and buy one immediately, but it's now on the horizon.
I really think that this will turn the mac into the special-forces-swiss-army-knife of computers. Let's just repeat it again: Natively running windows, with working drivers, etc.

At the very least, it will spur some purchases by a lot of people who wouldn't have switched to a mac (or replaced a mac) this year.

I do agree that the avergage consumer won't just jump on this- you can get a $300 PC at GeneriCompuMart. But it might just turn it into another must-have like the ipod.

 

[ElDiabloConCaca]

You know, El Diablo, I have been thinking, ... I think we should see other peopl.... er, OSes. Given the possibility of booting into Windows when required/desired gives the users a lot of interesting options.

According to http://www.macitynet.it/macity/ , after the firmware upgrade and running the BC assistant, Linux live DVD's also work like a charm.

Apple/Steve did the right thing: release windows compatible macs and enable normal users to run windows, instead of waiting like a sitting duck that Leopard comes out and "evil hackers" do the same thing to OSX86 as they did to win-on-Mac, namely succesfully making it work. By the time Leppy comes out, people are not going to try to hack it and install it on PC's because a lot of interested folks will already own a Mac. This way Apple earns a lot of cash on hardware instead of a little cash on software. Moreover this would increas the marketshare, while the other way round it would probably decline.

Also Apple is doing this now from a position of (relative) strenght instead as from a position of weakness and necessity. It will help grow marketshare and overall awareness and appreciation of the platform. This will lure developers _to_ Apple instead of driving them away.

Like I said, I'm making a simple point: this Boot Camp is a good thing. I've never disputed that. It's useful, cool, and rather nifty. Yay.

My point is that people are jumping up and down with excitement like this is the greatest thing to happen to Apple -- just look at page 1 of this thread. I just think it's a little over-reactive. I mean, whoopie -- we can run Windows natively now. If you already use Windows, then why the exorbitant amount of excitement? It's Windows for crying out loud. So you can finally sell that crusty beige box and do everything on your Mac. That's rather cool. And, if you never did run Windows and were only exposed to Mac OS X, well, you're not missing out on anything, so why all the excitement?

Remember: Windows is the bad guy. We don't want Windows, remember? Sure, it brings another level of compatibility to the platform, but big-friggin' whoop -- it's not a full-screen video iPod, it's not "Asteroid", it's not an 8-core PowerMac. It's Windows. Perhaps I'm just overreacting to some of the reactions here, but it's scary that some people would get so excited over being able to Windows on their Mac.

 

[Perseus]

a very bad comparison

What is a very bad comparison? I am saying the price of Apple's computers may not bring as many PC switchers as some may think even with the idea of Boot Camp. Those people may stick with what they have. I am only venturing a guess here.

 

[dave17lax]

so why all the excitement?

Ahh I get it-
So yeah, I'm excited because I have to use windows in my industry. I come home from work and have can use the mac, but must then switch computers and do some more work on windows. Maybe it's more efficient to have two computers up than toggling OS's on one machine, but it annoys me, I don't want a computer lab settting in my home anymore.
My main work computer will probably always be some bleeding edge PC, but for side work at home, I want to combine forces. I've got 2 macs, a PC box and a PC laptop at home. I'd rather just have one, that's all.

 

[RacerX]

Waaaah! The world's end is nigh! RacerX was wrong!! A Mac *IS* a PC after all!!! ... Oh well...

Hopefully I'm very wrong.

We'll find out soon enough though.

If we start seeing developers like Adobe and Microsoft drop the Mac versions of their software saying "just run it in Windows" then we can pretty much kiss our platform goodbye.

Boy I hope I'm wrong! But we'll have our first chance to find out soon enough. The first hurdle is Adobe's CS3. And as Microsoft releases the Mac version of Office a year after the Windows version... and that version is on hold for Vista, that'll be the next hurdle.

I'm pretty sure that game developers are going to jump on this as soon as possible... so don't plan on many games in the future. They were dragging their feet to begin with, so this gives them the answer to anyone asking for Mac versions of their games.




Of course, it is likely to get worse for everyone else before it gets bad for me... I can make do with old computers, old operating systems and old software for years after a platform has disappeared.


I hope I'm wrong, but something tells me that most of you are going to be Windows users in the future.


You know the old saying: careful what you wish for... you might just get it.

 

[mindbend]

OMFG.

That was my reaction. I never thought I'd see the day. I thought all the predictions of this over the months were insane. I was wrong.

For me, this is a HUGE thing. I hate Windows as much as the next fanatic, but the fact is we live in a Windows world. I have Windows clients. For one in particular I bought an HP laptop specifically for the purpose of running Powerpoint for PC (cuz the Mac version, nice as it is, is not as compatible as M$ would have you believe). So I blew $1300 just to run POWERPOINT! (Well worth it BTW, paid for itself immediately, but that's besides the point).

Now, with Boot Camp, I can use the same laptop to run these stupid native Powerpoint presentations for Client A and then reboot and finish my Final Cut edit for Client B. That is MONSTROUS for me and my staff. We are all drooling over the potential for this.

And while I agree with Diablo's reminder of the irony (it really is ironic after all), the fact is that this ability means more money for me as well as convenience. HUGE. So I guess I'll just close my eyes and cringe as Windows boots, while blissfully listening to the cha-ching, cha-ching in my mind.

-----

Yes, the Apple machines will continue to be more expensive, so that will continue to be an issue for those people that don't bother to actually compare feature sets and only see ridiculous-get-what-you-pay-for $399 Dell offers. For those of who want style and a well-made, feature-rich box, this is huge.

Did I mention how huge this is?

-----

I too am slightly concerned about this possibility about developers dropping OS X, but I have to defer to Apple, who have clearly thought about this a lot more than we have. They must be comfortable with it. Also, at least for the next few years we're safe since Adobe is on board and so is M$ (and others). As long as there is demand (from lunatics like us) and the numbers say profit, we'll be fine.

Just remember how many games have been ported to Mac even with our low market share. There must be just enough of us to make it worth it. That will remain true.

-----

In closing.

Wow.

 

[symphonix]

I can't see any way that this can be a bad thing. I won't be booting Windows, simply because I don't need to. And I'm sure for a lot of people it won't mean much. But for those switchers who have been sitting on the fence, to afraid to take the step to Mac, the last of their fears has just evaporated away.

 

[RacerX]

One of the reasons I think a lot of Mac users are not going to see this as bad until... well, it becomes bad, is that they haven't had experiences out side of the Mac platform.

For example... why isn't there a Linux version of Adobe's Creative Suite? There are almost as many Linux users as Mac users, and it really wouldn't be that hard for Adobe to make a Linux version. So what has stopped Linux users from getting this software?

The answer is painfully simple. Adobe tells them to use the Windows version if they want it.

I too am slightly concerned about this possibility about developers dropping OS X, but I have to defer to Apple, who have clearly thought about this a lot more than we have.

Are you so sure about this?

Apple is a corporation. And they have interest which are not always the same as those of Mac users. It was one thing when Apple was totally dependent on the Mac platform... these days they just don't have enough eggs in this basket to keep me from questioning moves like this.

I look at SGI (they started to die when they started selling Windows based workstations), Be (could never get past the Applications Barrier to Entry on the PC hardware platform), NeXT (who lost many of their developers when NEXTSTEP started co-existing with Windows on PCs) and OS/2 Warp (whose compatibility with Windows apps kept developers from writing native OS/2 apps) and can't help but think this has to be the worst possible thing Apple could do to the platform.


I don't blame most of you for having a short term (and self interest) view of this. As consumers, that is how most people are going to think. But from a long term (community interest) view, I see this as having the potential to go bad in so many ways.

Oh well, I'm glad this solves some of the today problems for those of you who have been needing both platforms. Odds are this is going to solve these problems in the long run too... just not the way people are expecting.

 

[Cat]

you're not missing out on anything, so why all the excitement?

I'm missing TraDOS (word on windows only, translation tool), I've had to wait 3 years for the Civ III expansions, I need to access someone else's PC to test my websites for IE/Win compatibility.

Remember: Windows is the bad guy. We don't want Windows, remember?

Is that a given principle? I remember Microsoft being the good guy, starting out as a Mac developer ... and they never abandoned the platform ... we don't want to use windows exclusively in day to day work, but we might enjoy tinkering around with it or playing the occasional game on it.

If we start seeing developers like Adobe and Microsoft drop the Mac versions of their software saying "just run it in Windows" then we can pretty much kiss our platform goodbye.

That's not going to happen. This move by Apple will first of all increase their marketshare. That will make it _less_ likely that developers will leave the OS X platform. While Macs have <5% of the overall computer marketshare there are two other significant numbers here: 1) Installed base (all the people you can sell your software to) and 2) domain specific marketshare (Apple is ~50% rather than ~5% of Adobe's market).

Moreover, developing for windows means developing in a market where there are already _a lot more_ competing developers and products, developing a succesfull product for the Mac is actually easier in that respect. Look at the huge success of the OmniGroup. They have been developing exclusively for the Mac for years, what could possibly happen to make them abandon the platform. They have got a lot of expertise and with each succesive generation of OS X it has become easier to develop for the Mac: XCode, Core-video, audio, and data, opensource WebKit, easy accessible QTKit. AFAIK these things _do not exist_ in windows.

I look at SGI (they started to die when they started selling Windows based workstations), Be (could never get past the Applications Barrier to Entry on the PC hardware platform), NeXT (who lost many of their developers when NEXTSTEP started co-existing with Windows on PCs) and OS/2 Warp (whose compatibility with Windows apps kept developers from writing native OS/2 apps) and can't help but think this has to be the worst possible thing Apple could do to the platform.

SGI was a more specialized market thatn the Mac and Apple is still not selling or supporting windows-boxen. In contrast to Be and the BeOS, Apple is already well past the application barrier and has several dedicated mac-only developers, is backed by the big firms (MS, Adobe) and develops lots of (professional) stuff in house. NeXT attracted developers _in droves_ because of the developing environment, but was relatively new and never attained significant mainstream market- and mindshare. OS2 had other problems, like price, hardware requirements etc. Moreover it was co-developed by IBM and Microsoft initially and then MS abandoned it for NT.

It all depends on how it plays out of course, but Apple is doing this from a much stronger position than all the other examples you mention. So "the worst possible thing" it is certainly not.