Bush Pisses Me OFF
- Thread starter Soapvox
- Start date
Soapvox
Want some of my Kool-aid?
Those are some bold comments Admin. And very well said. I completely disagree with you though, I do not believe in any god and feel no need to go further into that (like I said a whole nother thread). I think one of the scariest things about bush is his christianity, not that he is a christian, but he lets his distorted religious beliefs be part of the white house, the fore fathers wanted a government not based on religion (seperation of church and state is not only for schools) but based on the people, and while christianity is strongly represented in America, so are non-believers we just don't have a book or symbol to rallybehind as a unified group, so that said this government is not representative of the general population. As for good vs. evil, does that mean that because muslims see our lives as evil they have a right to war against us (while most muslims I believe don't agree with our beliefs, feel that that is something we will take up with alah once we die), I think not, Al Queda to me is like the KKK, they are religious based fanatics, that is no need to destroy and murder innocents.
Soap... you missed the point on the good vs evil comment...
There is a underlying spiritual warfare going on... "behind the scenes" that we don't see... but we experience on a day to day basis. When Lucifer went to God saying that Job was ONLY a rightous man because he enjoyed riches and things were going well for him, very well off... God allowed Satan to bring horror to Job's surroundings... destory his family, his wealth, everything he had... God did not allow Satan to take his life...
Thus, Satan went after Job... with all the fury he was allowed to muster up... and Job although burned and bruised and left all but dead... he still worshiped his Lord.
I agree, America is a free country, and you can believe whatever you want. I have no disagreement with that, in fact, it is that very thinking that allows me to sit here and voice my thoughts. It is also why you won't see me "banning" you for your beliefs if indeed they are different... as some folks seem to live in fear of. (must be a streak of bad mods and admins around).
On our money it says, "In God We Trust". This country was founded on relgious freedom, but more importantly, freedom for Christians to worship and not be forced to worship in the way the goverment wants us too. Indeed... our founding fathers also recognized that for this to stand... everyone, whatever their belief... must be allowed to worship freely.
Any act that takes away that freedom of worship... removing prayer from school, removing religion from school, or removing the 10 commandments from court rooms... is indeed infrinding on that very freedom this country was founded on.
If you limit my ability to pray in school, if you limit my ability to post the 10 commands, or have a Bible at work... you have no clue about what freedom is. My freedom to worship how I please, doesn't force you to do so.
The problem with thinking in this country from non-believers is that they think that any "worship" is against the foundation of this country and violation of seperation... when indeed it's not... it's people going about their business the way the choose to do so. If you choose not to worship, that is your choice. If during a moment of silence... you pick your nose and think about which girl is the cutest... that is your choice. No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. If you feel guilty... then you need to evaluate why you feel that way, and consider that something greater may be working in your life... and that someone might actually be tugging at your heart and care for you, but your heart is too hardened to listen or acknowledge.
Admin
There is a underlying spiritual warfare going on... "behind the scenes" that we don't see... but we experience on a day to day basis. When Lucifer went to God saying that Job was ONLY a rightous man because he enjoyed riches and things were going well for him, very well off... God allowed Satan to bring horror to Job's surroundings... destory his family, his wealth, everything he had... God did not allow Satan to take his life...
Thus, Satan went after Job... with all the fury he was allowed to muster up... and Job although burned and bruised and left all but dead... he still worshiped his Lord.
I agree, America is a free country, and you can believe whatever you want. I have no disagreement with that, in fact, it is that very thinking that allows me to sit here and voice my thoughts. It is also why you won't see me "banning" you for your beliefs if indeed they are different... as some folks seem to live in fear of. (must be a streak of bad mods and admins around).
On our money it says, "In God We Trust". This country was founded on relgious freedom, but more importantly, freedom for Christians to worship and not be forced to worship in the way the goverment wants us too. Indeed... our founding fathers also recognized that for this to stand... everyone, whatever their belief... must be allowed to worship freely.
Any act that takes away that freedom of worship... removing prayer from school, removing religion from school, or removing the 10 commandments from court rooms... is indeed infrinding on that very freedom this country was founded on.
If you limit my ability to pray in school, if you limit my ability to post the 10 commands, or have a Bible at work... you have no clue about what freedom is. My freedom to worship how I please, doesn't force you to do so.
The problem with thinking in this country from non-believers is that they think that any "worship" is against the foundation of this country and violation of seperation... when indeed it's not... it's people going about their business the way the choose to do so. If you choose not to worship, that is your choice. If during a moment of silence... you pick your nose and think about which girl is the cutest... that is your choice. No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. If you feel guilty... then you need to evaluate why you feel that way, and consider that something greater may be working in your life... and that someone might actually be tugging at your heart and care for you, but your heart is too hardened to listen or acknowledge.
Admin
AdmiralAK
Simply Daemonic
I kinda missed this in High School History....
but what did the US government do to prevent th KKK from lynching blacks and "niger lovers" ? What measures did they take ? (trying to throw some fuel on this thread, talk it out, dont want this to turn into a 1st amendment thread about the rights to pray
or about good versus evil because quite frankly its all in the eye of the beholder thats why we cant see eye to eye with OBL)
Admiral
but what did the US government do to prevent th KKK from lynching blacks and "niger lovers" ? What measures did they take ? (trying to throw some fuel on this thread, talk it out, dont want this to turn into a 1st amendment thread about the rights to pray
or about good versus evil because quite frankly its all in the eye of the beholder thats why we cant see eye to eye with OBL)Admiral
.dev.lqd
Angry Member
I am not a religious person. It's a hard struggle for me to balance what I know with other's beliefs, especially when people I respect have what I see as blind faith. It is not a matter of my not believing that there is a god- but the fact that I have had no evidence of his existence that leads me to believe such. I consider myself too insignificant to make any kind of determination. It becomes an issue of respect when people who I hold in any esteem cater to God without good justification. I understand the emotional aspects of it, I understand the social aspects of it, I just can't come to the same conclusions given the same circumstances.
The few deeply religious people I've met who I can respect have been the antithesis of fanatical. They have been humble, considerate individuals who almost seem to live a subtle and quiet struggle to live as they believe they should. It's as if they are continually walking against the wind, and yet are unaffected by its cold. I yearn for their kind of spirituality, but am too pragmatic to accept that kind of mindset without some serious dirt or experiences.
People who do things in the name of God are, generally speaking, deluded.
It should not be considered godly to look upon others with compassion. It should be considered as utterly human as it is considered humane. I see little affection of the world by god (meant in the literal as things directly affected by, not as in reference to endearment) while I see far more direct affection (should I say affliction?) by human beings, quite often, in the name of god. Acts of violence are simply too profane to be done in the name of a being who is defined by love. Humble, soft, and quiet acts would be far, far more befitting to be carried out in his name, if it even needs to be labeled as such.
I don't feel that god should be involved with the current situation. We need to consider the more human factors of things: particularly preventing more suffering both in Afghanistan and in the world as a whole (not to mention preventing further atrocities as best we can). Funding those who oppress is not humane. Bombing the oppressed is obviously not humane. I consider the current regime in power to be an affliction- they both oppress and starve. Those who are threatened by freedom are usually the same people who will threaten freedom.
The few deeply religious people I've met who I can respect have been the antithesis of fanatical. They have been humble, considerate individuals who almost seem to live a subtle and quiet struggle to live as they believe they should. It's as if they are continually walking against the wind, and yet are unaffected by its cold. I yearn for their kind of spirituality, but am too pragmatic to accept that kind of mindset without some serious dirt or experiences.
People who do things in the name of God are, generally speaking, deluded.
It should not be considered godly to look upon others with compassion. It should be considered as utterly human as it is considered humane. I see little affection of the world by god (meant in the literal as things directly affected by, not as in reference to endearment) while I see far more direct affection (should I say affliction?) by human beings, quite often, in the name of god. Acts of violence are simply too profane to be done in the name of a being who is defined by love. Humble, soft, and quiet acts would be far, far more befitting to be carried out in his name, if it even needs to be labeled as such.
I don't feel that god should be involved with the current situation. We need to consider the more human factors of things: particularly preventing more suffering both in Afghanistan and in the world as a whole (not to mention preventing further atrocities as best we can). Funding those who oppress is not humane. Bombing the oppressed is obviously not humane. I consider the current regime in power to be an affliction- they both oppress and starve. Those who are threatened by freedom are usually the same people who will threaten freedom.
Soapvox
Want some of my Kool-aid?
The in god we trust was not put on our money until an attachement to a bill in the civil war, it was slipped in as a sly trick and now nobody takes it up because we have never known any different, so to say that the forefathers wanted freedom for christianity is wrong because Jefferson was a naturalist aka pagan. I have no problem with you praying in school or having a bible or the ten commandments at your office, but if you have a moment of silence imposed at a school function, even saying the pledge I feel adamantly against (again the one nation under god was not in the original, but place in in the late 1800's) as well as posting religious documents of any source in federally paid for buildings, what you do in your life is up to you.
I am not trying to dissuade you from your religious beliefs at all, I am saying I don't believe in your god and satan. So because of that I think we need to look back at the evils that we have done (as a nation) to embitter these people, christians and muslims worship the same god, just call it two different names. Please people don't ignore the horrible things we have done to these people (and others all over the world, see the philipines, cuba pre-castro, etc...) and think thier hatred is unfounded, that is no excuse but then again we have extremist as well (KKK, Timothy McVeigh, Kazinski), they just happen to have a smaller country and more power.
BTW I commend you on your management of the boards, you do a wonderful job of letting things be (a pleasant surprise from other boards).
I am not trying to dissuade you from your religious beliefs at all, I am saying I don't believe in your god and satan. So because of that I think we need to look back at the evils that we have done (as a nation) to embitter these people, christians and muslims worship the same god, just call it two different names. Please people don't ignore the horrible things we have done to these people (and others all over the world, see the philipines, cuba pre-castro, etc...) and think thier hatred is unfounded, that is no excuse but then again we have extremist as well (KKK, Timothy McVeigh, Kazinski), they just happen to have a smaller country and more power.
BTW I commend you on your management of the boards, you do a wonderful job of letting things be (a pleasant surprise from other boards).
.dev.lqd
Angry Member
Admin: I think that the freedom to worship that is included in the Constitution is not only about freedom to worship as you will, but to prepare and enforce a seperation of state and church, lest the government, intentionally or unintentionally, impose one religion or another.
I feel that "no prayer in school" was less to exclude prayer in the school as it was meant to prevent school officials from imposing specific practices on children, who are extremely impressionable. Children of all people should be let to form their own opinions of their world. To merely introduce something to them is to teach it to them. I hope that such exclusions is still in effect when I send my own children (whenever they appear) to school, that they might make their own decisions regarding the world around them, as I've been allowed to. Teaching children that Christianity is the norm, I feel, only introduces a standard that they should live up to. I disagree strongly with this.
I feel that "no prayer in school" was less to exclude prayer in the school as it was meant to prevent school officials from imposing specific practices on children, who are extremely impressionable. Children of all people should be let to form their own opinions of their world. To merely introduce something to them is to teach it to them. I hope that such exclusions is still in effect when I send my own children (whenever they appear) to school, that they might make their own decisions regarding the world around them, as I've been allowed to. Teaching children that Christianity is the norm, I feel, only introduces a standard that they should live up to. I disagree strongly with this.
The comfort of walking against the wind w/o feeling the cold... can only come from a personal relationship with Chirst. It is this very thing that we see Jonah... who while going against God's direction, was still in complete comfort... and while those non-believers on the ship were declaring the final will and testament from the storm that was upon them... Jonah snored away, asleep and at peace. They went to him and said... Jonah... who is your God? He replied, the one true God who made the sea and the dry land. He knew why the storm was upon them... because of HIM, not because of the non-believers.
That peace is awesome... knowing that if today I am gone, I know where I will be in the blink of an eye... worshiping my Savior, who loves me... even though I don't deserve it.
Admin
AdmiralAK
Simply Daemonic
Admin I do agree that it comes down to good vs evil, but as I said its all in the eye of the beholder. (nice mac good, pc evil that was good comical relief )
No one answered my question on the KKK though.
I am off to class, back after "enterprize"... keep it clean people!
Admiral
that was good comical relief )No one answered my question on the KKK though.
I am off to class, back after "enterprize"... keep it clean people!
Admiral
Guys,
I enjoy these discussions just as much as everyone else does, or at least those who participate in them. In boards I have managed in the passed, I always seemed to have a few of my team (not business team, but spiritual team) who would carry the torch forward.
I am busy building greatness for this site... and will now excuse myself from this conversation... not because I feel I am loosing ground, but because I know who wins in the end.
Best of luck on your KKK discussion.
Admin
I enjoy these discussions just as much as everyone else does, or at least those who participate in them. In boards I have managed in the passed, I always seemed to have a few of my team (not business team, but spiritual team) who would carry the torch forward.
I am busy building greatness for this site... and will now excuse myself from this conversation... not because I feel I am loosing ground, but because I know who wins in the end.
Best of luck on your KKK discussion.
Admin
Soapvox
Want some of my Kool-aid?
Thanks for your input, its good to get all sides!
Admiral, I don't think there ever was any legislation against the KKK per se, but what I find interesting we did not pass hate crime laws until the 90's, so I guess that would cover crimes comitted by the KKK, hope that answers what you were asking.
Admiral, I don't think there ever was any legislation against the KKK per se, but what I find interesting we did not pass hate crime laws until the 90's, so I guess that would cover crimes comitted by the KKK, hope that answers what you were asking.
RacerX
Old Rhapsody User
Wow! I didn't think I was gone that long! And when did all the religion stuff come in (Soapvox knows I fall on his side when it comes to that).
Where did that come from? We don't agree so you get angry and leave (after some not to flattering comments). What is up with that? I don't get personal, so why should you, Sithious? I never thought any less of you, why does this create such a emotional outburst?
And sao, where do you get off calling ANY one else "self rightious". I have opinions, they are my own. I have never said that anyone needs to follow them, there mine. Everyone should come to there own conclusions. Through out you have been both vague and judgmental, why?
In discussions like this we put our ideas and background out there for everyone to see where we are coming from. I have NO idea where sao is coming from, I'm surprised (and disappointed) by Sithious, and Soapvox and I have been on the same side of other arguments (and I'm sure we will again in others). I haven't felt that anyone else's ideas are any more or less valid than my own, so I would hope that others would feel the same way.
Where did that come from? We don't agree so you get angry and leave (after some not to flattering comments). What is up with that? I don't get personal, so why should you, Sithious? I never thought any less of you, why does this create such a emotional outburst?
And sao, where do you get off calling ANY one else "self rightious". I have opinions, they are my own. I have never said that anyone needs to follow them, there mine. Everyone should come to there own conclusions. Through out you have been both vague and judgmental, why?
In discussions like this we put our ideas and background out there for everyone to see where we are coming from. I have NO idea where sao is coming from, I'm surprised (and disappointed) by Sithious, and Soapvox and I have been on the same side of other arguments (and I'm sure we will again in others). I haven't felt that anyone else's ideas are any more or less valid than my own, so I would hope that others would feel the same way.
Soapvox
Want some of my Kool-aid?
While I disagree with you I value your input on this thread, please keep up the productive conversation. As far as the religious part, Admin surprised me by joining a thread and wow he definitely tossed a wrench into the mess, while I don't think this really has anything to do with religion (other than maybe Bush's deluded self righteousness) admin aparently does, any thoughts racer?
RacerX
Old Rhapsody User
Not to offend anyone, but most religions scare me (specially those from the mid-east). It is not the teachings, it is the followers that trouble me so much. In this case we have people who SAY they fight for Islam, but don't seem to follow the teachings. On the Christian side, the examples seem endless. Maybe it is just coincidence that they have the same origin, then again maybe not.
Soapvox
Want some of my Kool-aid?
All religions can be good (not something I believe in but teachings are good) its the fanatics that interpret those teachings that taint things, and even if the fanatic is way off the deep end they will always influence a few people even if it is slightly or start opposition so I think religion is flawed because of the human factor which is sorta wierd because to me it is humans that create religion to explain thinks, I know very strange thinking but thats what I believe.
RacerX
Old Rhapsody User
Same here. It seems that people's insecurities about their own religion make them attack others that believe differently. Different beliefs shouldn't be a bad thing if they are not being imposed on others. It is funny, some of the greatest works of art I have seen and heard were inspired by religions, and some of the most nightmarish events in are history seem to come from the same place. Your quite right about the human factor. It is quite the double edged sword.
Matrix Agent
Masochist Mascot
You guys all remeber how the US gov't came out and said that they were working on a palestinian state right after the attacks came out?
Do you all think that this was true, or that they were just putting a spin on a summit that had little chance of being successful?
I for one would be quite mad if it turned out that they were truly on the edge of creating a palestinian state. Palistinians celebrating the defeat of their chance to have their own state........ironic.
But then again, it just might be propaganda to make the US look innocent.
Any conspiracy therorists out there?
Do you all think that this was true, or that they were just putting a spin on a summit that had little chance of being successful?
I for one would be quite mad if it turned out that they were truly on the edge of creating a palestinian state. Palistinians celebrating the defeat of their chance to have their own state........ironic.
But then again, it just might be propaganda to make the US look innocent.
Any conspiracy therorists out there?