Bush Pisses Me OFF

[Soapvox]

While admiral and I disagree on this point I think he just believes differently than me, no excuse of age or anything, just differently.

Sao is right though I believe in that we can no longer think of ourselves only but need to think of ourselves as all. The laws we as america pass today that take away our civil rights are going to be moving forward to a New World Order that bush seniors grand plan was. I think it is scary to think that now all they have to do is say a terrorist sent me an email once (could've been span) so now than can read my email, tap my cell phone and my land line without having to get a grand jury order. And when bush says that we are all soldiers in his army that sounds an awful lot like religious retohric (?sp) to me and I DO NOT support this war and so I feel embarrased to be american when we have now had two war mongering bushes. BTW the proverbial final straw that made Osama binLaden go bback to afghanistan is when we invaded kuwait to drive back Iraq, binLaden thought that the Arab nations should do that but instead to protect our oil intrests we jumped in and commenced killing 500,000 children over the past 10 years, I think I would be pissed to, I am not violent, but I would've been pissed.

 

[sithious]

... absolutely, sao... i know...

i've always liked the admiral too ... i just wish he didn't want me to be plane bombed and anthraxed...

just as i don't wish for anyone to be bombed or sick or whatever.
we are all human, none of us should suffer.

fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering leads to the dark side of the force.

 

[RacerX]

Originally posted by sithious
racer x, i don't know where you get your information, but it is a proven fact that the us government funded bin laden and his terrorist cohorts throughout the nineties to support their battle against the russians. this just further proves american hipocrisy. it's okay to kill russians if your "battling communism", is it?

Wow, I don't remember saying anything along those lines, but now that you have brought it up, lets look at this. We (our government) did NOT fund Bin Laden. Actually Bin Laden was in the business of funding himself, and gave quite a bit of money and resources to the fight against the Soviets (which I might add, is very different from Russia of today). So if anything we were doing the same thing that he was then. Plus the Soviets where attempting to increase their power by annexing nations, were we to just let this happen?

As for where I get my information, the ONLY news we watch in our home comes from PBS (we get two stations), NPR and the BBC. I take anything that AP puts out with a giant block of salt because they like to jazz up stories (and almost all other news programs get their news from AP anyway).

Lets look at your statement about not comparing this to WW2. As I recall the Nazi party band all other parties in the mid to late 30's. This meant that they outlawed all opposition, so that doesn't sound very democratic to me.

How about your statements regarding "american terrorist", I know we would do everything we could to find them, Russia knows we would do everything we could to find them. Infact, Oklahoma was a good example of them fighting back from us trying to end those types of groups. I think you should put more thought into that part of your statement, it seem too emotionally driven.

And as for things happening in other nations, I seem to remember Tian Nan Men Square and the Russian Coup as being major events in my life, even if they were not in your's. It would seem that you are the one guilty of having a short memory for these types of things. My major opposition to Bush in on the missile defense joke he is playing on us and how the Russian are going to react to it (not to mention Europe).

Our selfish nature as a nation is no better or worst than any other nation on this planet. Our selflessness as a nation is unparalleled in the history of the world. No one would ask for our help if they did not believe that we would be willing to give it, and that belief is based on our history as a giving and generous nation. Yes, we often get preoccupied with our own problems, what nation doesn't? But when push comes to shove, guess who must bare the weight of the world. And we do this from experience. Every time we have taken a step back from the world stage, things quickly get out of hand (or don't you remember reading about the League of Nations). And yes we get involved when something is in our national interest, the tick it to try and find something in this world that isn't in our national interest. And is there a nation that acts differently (better) than us? Best of luck finding one.

Soapvox, these people hate. They know nothing else, they just want to hate. They are not following any rime or reason, they just hate. We are what they hate now, but we didn't have to do anything other than be here for them to feel that way. It is ALWAY easier to lead people with hate in their hearts, that is one of the things that you notice in reading history. Hitler was able to get Germans to hate, and that was all he needed.

I find the knee jerk _________ (liberals, conservatives) often miss the true nature of the world. Extreme views based on emotions are more dangerous than anything else. By taking an emotional position (like you are), you have given up on thought and reason. Soapvox, Sithious, your ability to reason through these types of issues is one of the saddest casualties of this conflict.

 

[RacerX]

Don't you think that that is very extreme! I for one know that many European are not as self centered as their government would lead us to believe. America should basically understand that what we do for the rest of the world has to be classified as Kantian in our giving. We give and give, but should NEVER expect anything in return. So we rebuilt Europe, forgave tons of debt, we should never expect them to come to our aid.

Sithious, we had our own civil war 140 years ago, and the war of 1812 against England. Heck, the White House was burned down. We have had war here too.

 

[Soapvox]

Soapvox, these people hate. They know nothing else, they just want to hate. They are not following any rime or reason, they just hate. We are what they hate now, but we didn't have to do anything other than be here for them to feel that way. It is ALWAY easier to lead people with hate in their hearts, that is one of the things that you notice in reading history. Hitler was able to get Germans to hate, and that was all he needed.

I find the knee jerk _________ (liberals, conservatives) often miss the true nature of the world. Extreme views based on emotions are more dangerous than anything else. By taking an emotional position (like you are), you have given up on thought and reason. Soapvox, Sithious, your ability to reason through these types of issues is one of the saddest casualties of this conflict.

They have a reason to hate us, because we stick our noses where they don't belong. I don't see the taliban like nazis, the nazis tried to take over other countries, the taliban while not the government I would choose had a revolt (hey people remember the american revolution) and took over the government, they are not invading anyone, just governing themselves. I believe if we had not involved ourselves in thier conflicts (speaking in generalities now) and tried to be a world police, they would not like us, but also not hate us like they do today, and guess what with each bombing, you have another child who is going to grow up hating america, so what should we do go wipe out the whole nation, i think not, we need to lead by example and through teaching. I am not talking from emotions, these are my pacifist beliefs and just because i am against violence and war does not mean i have given up thought and reason, I think on the contrary, instead of flying of the hook and saying lets kill them I am saying lets look at the cause and remedy the situtation. Please racer, extrapolate a little on why it is sad that sithious and I can reason through these types of issues, I am a bit confused on what you mean.

BTW guys I am very glad all of you are participating, I am finding this very theraputic and hope whether you agree or disagree continue to follow this thread, open Ideas are what this country is about

 

[AdmiralAK]

Let me start off saying that I respect and like all of you here.
Over the course of the past year I have gotten to know you all well (I think).

My wish for a bombed and anthraxed europe is a contrary to my real wish kind of wish (I dont know if that makes sense or not). Its a wish that I wish never to happen because its something horrible that I dont wish upon anyone.

For the killing children part, let me restate that I do not wish to have women and children casualties. The only casualties that should be casualties are the jihadeens (is that a real word ? ) that want to see americans dead. Usually these are grown men, or at least men that we consider in our western though to be of age to make their own decisions.

On the trial issue, again I am not saying suspects should be executed, we are not the taliban that takes its opposition to a soccer field and blows their brains out with an uzi or an AK47.

We know that Osama, and his Al Quida network have *already* done things against the state that is the USA. This is *not* a suspicion, but a fact. If not for 911, we should take him in and musollini him for what he did before that.


On the help without payback, I have no problem with that. I do that with my friends, and dont expect some sort of payback. I do however expect not to be kicked in the ass, deceived or betrayed by those friends which I helped. I guess it is some sort of "payback", but it seems only normal. I dont know.


Now a question... what the heck is "sp" ??


Admiral
--> thoroughly enjoying this discussion <--

 

[sao]

You write...:

"us and them, us and them, us and them" and then...

"us and them, us and them..."

"cause and effect"..."cause and effect" and the snowball keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Did you ever considered or cross your mind that is not about "us and "them"?

I'ts about all of us, together...

All humanity...

All races, all colors, all religions, all countries, all people.

All together.

I want to hear from within you some words of unity, understanding and solutions for a brighter future of everybody in this world. Without thinking of "self".

If not, the future looks dark...very dark...

 

[RacerX]

Originally posted by Soapvox
Please racer, extrapolate a little on why it is sad that sithious and I can reason through these types of issues, I am a bit confused on what you mean.

Mainly because your arguments represent an extreme that has as much anger and hatred as any of the extreme conservative views I've seen. Maybe I'm reading you guys wrong, but you seem spitting mad about this. And you seem bent on demonizing the US without taking into account the nature of these other people.

They have a reason to hate us, because we stick our noses where they don't belong.

Lets look at the war against Japan as an example. They ALL hated us with a passion. They where told by their leaders that we would rape their women and children if we won the war. We bombed many of their cities and where the only nation to use atomic weapons during that war. Why did we need to do all that to them? The Philippines is why. Both side suffered massive casualties because of the ground invasion there. Japan would have been worse for both sides if we had tried the same thing. Now fast forward to today. I don't think Japan hates the US now, do you?

I'm all for talking first, but we have already had thousands of casualties, and there were going to be more even if we did nothing.

Pacifist can't stop people who maintain power though hate and violence. The people of Afghanistan follow leader who can win battles (even if we classify those battles as terrorism) irregardless of WHO the battle is against. We are the biggest (and easiest) target. Like I said, it is easy to lead people with hate in their hearts, specially if you can show them some form of victory.

 

[RacerX]

I'm sorry sao, we live in a causal universe. There are people out there with differing views and motivations. To gloss over that fact would only lead to more conflict. I'm not to sure were you are coming from with the "All races, all colors, all religions, all countries, all people" thing, I didn't think I was talking on anything other than hatred as a motive and factor in controlling large groups. The only solutions can be found by knowing both your own motivations and those of others (for many, knowing their own is the hardest part).

And the future still looks bright from where I sit.

 

[sithious]

Originally posted by RacerX

Sithious, we had our own civil war 140 years ago, and the war of 1812 against England. Heck, the White House was burned down. We have had war here too.

racer x, i know... that's what i said. but consider this: we've got war here right now in the balkans. all i was saying was let's not pretend that americans know more about this than we do, just because we don't live in new york. we are empathic.
still i must insist: war is NOT the answer.

 

[sao]

RacerX

Before was just mind...bla...bla...bla...

So what is your motivation...? please...

It's interesting you consider "all colors, all races, all religions, all people"...

a "thing"...

Now it's going to become not "us and them", but "you and me"

For a while...

 

[sithious]

Originally posted by RacerX


Wow, I don't remember saying anything along those lines, but now that you have brought it up, lets look at this. We (our government) did NOT fund Bin Laden. Actually Bin Laden was in the business of funding himself, and gave quite a bit of money and resources to the fight against the Soviets (which I might add, is very different from Russia of today). So if anything we were doing the same thing that he was then. Plus the Soviets where attempting to increase their power by annexing nations, were we to just let this happen?

sorry... even if you don't like it: the cia funded bin laden. this is a fact. he is a millionaire, i know. he still received money and weapons from the cia, as did the taliban. this is a FACT. look it up. it's not as if the cia even pretend it wasn't true. they admit it.

Originally posted by RacerX

Lets look at your statement about not comparing this to WW2. As I recall the Nazi party band all other parties in the mid to late 30's. This meant that they outlawed all opposition, so that doesn't sound very democratic to me.

this is true, but it is also true that hitler was democratically elected chancellor (the only party voting against him being the spd). the nazis did indeed enjoy large support amongst the german population. i live in germany. we learn these things at school.

Originally posted by RacerX

How about your statements regarding "american terrorist", I know we would do everything we could to find them, Russia knows we would do everything we could to find them. Infact, Oklahoma was a good example of them fighting back from us trying to end those types of groups. I think you should put more thought into that part of your statement, it seem too emotionally driven.

yes, but would you agree to russia bombing the states? that was what i asked.

Originally posted by RacerX
And as for things happening in other nations, I seem to remember Tian Nan Men Square and the Russian Coup as being major events in my life, even if they were not in your's. It would seem that you are the one guilty of having a short memory for these types of things. My major opposition to Bush in on the missile defense joke he is playing on us and how the Russian are going to react to it (not to mention Europe).

no, you misunderstood me there. sure those events might have been big in your life, same as september 11th was an enormous shock to me... you are an intelligent person, so you feel this stuff... i said i was generalizing, and i sure didn't mean you personally ...
but did the us government get involved? no.

Originally posted by RacerX
Soapvox, these people hate. They know nothing else, they just want to hate. They are not following any rime or reason, they just hate. We are what they hate now, but we didn't have to do anything other than be here for them to feel that way. It is ALWAY easier to lead people with hate in their hearts, that is one of the things that you notice in reading history. Hitler was able to get Germans to hate, and that was all he needed.

and it's always easier to assume others hate us for no reason.

Originally posted by RacerX
[B
I find the knee jerk _________ (liberals, conservatives) often miss the true nature of the world. Extreme views based on emotions are more dangerous than anything else. By taking an emotional position (like you are), you have given up on thought and reason. Soapvox, Sithious, your ability to reason through these types of issues is one of the saddest casualties of this conflict. [/B]

hang on, dude, we are the ones saying let's stay calm and reasonable. you are the one getting emotional. obviously i get emotional during discussions like this, but i never want to fight anyone. i want to talk, i want to reason, i want calm, collected, logical sense, even if my counterpart is being illogical, as the taliban are.
i doubt that saying "don't kill people" can be considered an extremist position.

 

[sithious]

Originally posted by RacerX
Don't you think that that is very extreme! I for one know that many European are not as self centered as their government would lead us to believe. America should basically understand that what we do for the rest of the world has to be classified as Kantian in our giving. We give and give, but should NEVER expect anything in return. So we rebuilt Europe, forgave tons of debt, we should never expect them to come to our aid.

Don't you think that that is very extreme! I for one know that many Americans are not as self centered as their government would lead us to believe. Europe should basically understand that what we do for the rest of the world has to be classified as Kantian in our giving. We give and give, but should NEVER expect anything in return. So we discovered America, invented modern civilization, we should never have to come to their aid.

shocked?
don't you see the americacentricity is as stupid as eurocentricity? we all live on one planet, we must all stick together.
stop being so proud of stuff you never did. you didn't rebuild anything, you weren't even born then, man.

racer x, i am not spitting with anger. i am merely extremely sad for people who suffer innocently and annoyed with your stubbornness.
try not thinking abstractly. imagine genuine human suffering. try to feel their pain too. innocent victims on both sides, but two wrongs can never make a right.

sorry about the double post... gotta get my thoughts more organized...

 

[Soapvox]

Mainly because your arguments represent an extreme that has as much anger and hatred as any of the extreme conservative views I've seen. Maybe I'm reading you guys wrong, but you seem spitting mad about this. And you seem bent on demonizing the US without taking into account the nature of these other people.

I feel no anger or hatred towards you, the cause that you stand for or for anyone else. Hatred is what causes violence, I do not have anger or hatred or even mad(anymore) about this issue. I don't hate bush, I just think he is a moron and should not be the "leader of the free world", but he is and unless we speak out and let our voices be heard, and right now I know I am in the minority, things will not have checks and balances. I am not demonizing the US I am trying to point to the past so we may learn from it and don't leave this as an open ended war. If things continue to go the way they are do you see an end short of complete genocide of a race (either thiers or ours), no because war begets war. I myself (and I think sithious and sao corect me if I am wrong) feel this way out of love for human life and hold nothing more sacred. The US is no longer a government for the people by the people, so we need to stand up against things we feel strongly against (or for) so we do not become an Aristocracy, which is what we pretty much are now, we vote for one of two rich white guys, and guess what that does not represent our people, so when terrible things happen we as americans all too easily let them decide for us what we are going to do, because it is easier to blame them when they are out of office, than to stand up and do our civicc duty and let them know how we feel now, and let them represent us responsibly. We are no longer one nation, we are a world with many differences, but one common goal, to live in peace and happiness. I find it hard to believe that all afghans hate americans, thats like saying because the KKK is a christian sect (and it is) that all christians hate blacks and jews, that is just not the case. I believe that killing for any reason is murder and if I stay silent then when I die, my life would not have moved the story forward and would have been a waste of carbon.

BTW admiral (?sp) mean I suck at spelling

 

[sithious]

... soapvox, maybe i should let you organize my thoughts! you've got it in a nutshell. i agree completely.

 

[RacerX]

Originally posted by sithious
sorry... even if you don't like it: the cia funded bin laden. this is a fact. he is a millionaire, i know. he still received money and weapons from the cia, as did the taliban. this is a FACT. look it up. it's not as if the cia even pretend it wasn't true. they admit it.

It may seem like semantics to you, but they only admitted to funding the same originizations as Bin Laden. There is a difference (though not much).

yes, but would you agree to russia bombing the states? that was what i asked.

The question is pointless because Russia would ask for our help and we would give it. You are trying to make a point based on flawed logic, therefore you have no point to make.

no, you misunderstood me there. sure those events might have been big in your life, same as september 11th was an enormous shock to me... you are an intelligent person, so you feel this stuff... i said i was generalizing, and i sure didn't mean you personally ...
but did the us government get involved? no.

Actually, yes... look it up.

and it's always easier to assume others hate us for no reason.

Why do the different factions there hate each other? Your missing the point. People with little hope need something to keep going... that something is hate (blind and pure).

hang on, dude, we are the ones saying let's stay calm and reasonable. you are the one getting emotional...

Really? Doesn't feel like it from here. I don't have any reason to be. I'm not mad or upset about any of this. It is just the way things are. Sorry you can't see that.

...obviously i get emotional during discussions like this, but i never want to fight anyone. i want to talk, i want to reason, i want calm, collected, logical sense, even if my counterpart is being illogical, as the taliban are.
i doubt that saying "don't kill people" can be considered an extremist position.

I'm sorry, but you didn't think that your statement "a bunch of arrogant wimps who don't care about anybody except themselves" extreme. Boy, I would hate to see your version of extreme then.

Don't you think that that is very extreme! I for one know that many Americans are not as self centered as their government would lead us to believe. Europe should basically understand that what we do for the rest of the world has to be classified as Kantian in our giving. We give and give, but should NEVER expect anything in return. So we discovered America, invented modern civilization, we should never have to come to their aid.

My characterisation was correct, your attempt was... lets just call it funny.

shocked?

Not really.

don't you see the americacentricity is as stupid as eurocentricity? we all live on one planet, we must all stick together.
stop being so proud of stuff you never did. you didn't rebuild anything, you weren't even born then, man.

All of this is on going (are you getting emotional again?), and yes we (this nation which included my family) did save Europe. And continue to send aid and protects today (you most likely don't live to far from one of our bases). It is sad that you would work so hard to play down the role of the US, it is hard for me not to see bias there.

racer x, i am not spitting with anger. i am merely extremely sad for people who suffer innocently and annoyed with your stubbornness.
try not thinking abstractly. imagine genuine human suffering. try to feel their pain too. innocent victims on both sides, but two wrongs can never make a right.

You assume to know things about me that you can't know. I have held a dying mans head in my lap after a gang had beaten it wide open. I've been shot at more than a few times. I know what pain and suffering is all to well. Avoid it if you can, do it if you must, war is a fact of life.

 

[Soapvox]

You assume to know things about me that you can't know. I have held a dying mans head in my lap after a gang had beaten it wide open. I've been shot at more than a few times. I know what pain and suffering is all to well. Avoid it if you can, do it if you must, war is a fact of life.

I am not assuming anything about you, you pulled two different posts together to quote me (and I think the last half is not mine), as for the gang scenario, I think you are assuming, I was a homeless kid on the streets of Phoenix, joined a gang, fought and thank whomever never killed anyone, that is one of the reasons I am the way I am, I had friends die in drive bys and have a scar on my knee where I was grazed, it made me realize all that much more that violence begets violence and only through education and peace can peace thrive.

People with little hope need something to keep going... that something is hate (blind and pure).

I find that hard to believe, there are many people all over the world that have little hope and they do not grasp onto hatred, the grab onto faith and follow a peaceful route(look at ghandi) and I think that saying all afghans hate americans is a gross generalization (I am sorry if that was taken out of context).

 

[RacerX]

Originally posted by Soapvox
I feel no anger or hatred towards you, the cause that you stand for or for anyone else.

I would hope not, I don't even think I was implying that you hated me.

Hatred is what causes violence, I do not have anger or hatred or even mad(anymore) about this issue.

But you used the words "pissing me off", didn't you? That is a strong emotional statement in and of itself. It is the title of this thread no less.

I am not demonizing the US I am trying to point to the past so we may learn from it and don't leave this as an open ended war. If things continue to go the way they are do you see an end short of complete genocide of a race (either thiers or ours), no because war begets war.

As in my example of Japan, it can lead to peace and friendship. It has happened before.

I myself (and I think sithious and sao corect me if I am wrong) feel this way out of love for human life and hold nothing more sacred.

And I don't? If you can actually show a better way... that works, I would love to hear it. I won't let my dislike of Bush cloud the situation. I want him out as much as the next guy (and I don't think Gore, a public servant most of his life, is rich).

I believe that killing for any reason is murder and if I stay silent then when I die, my life would not have moved the story forward and would have been a waste of carbon.

You don't save many lives that way though. Just thought I would point that out.

 

[sithious]

Originally posted by RacerX


It may seem like semantics to you, but they only admitted to funding the same originizations as Bin Laden. There is a difference (though not much).

it does seem like semantics to me, and i read differently. maybe the newspapers i read are badly informed, who knows?

Originally posted by RacerX

The question is pointless because Russia would ask for our help and we would give it. You are trying to make a point based on flawed logic, therefore you have no point to make.

i am trying to make a point based maybe on a bad example. claiming my logic is flawed is rather arrogant.
different example (purely hypothetic):
german terrorists (the baader- meinhof gang/RAF) blow up an american building. does the us bomb germany? no.
do the germans put the terrorists on trial? yes. in germany. not in the states.
after proof that it was indeed them has been delivered.
do they simply have them executed by the secret service? no.
did bush deliver this proof to the taliban when they offered to give up bin laden upon seeing proof?
no, he did not. why? because he is arrogant. maybe he has proof, maybe he doesn't. i don't know, and neither do you.

Originally posted by RacerX

Actually, yes... look it up.

the us declared war on china? i think not.

Originally posted by RacerX

Why do the different factions there hate each other? Your missing the point. People with little hope need something to keep going... that something is hate (blind and pure).

how do you know so much about these people? i know very little of them, i have never been there, i have never spoken to them. have you?
why do they have so little hope when we have so much? they could probably feed whole families for years on the money we spend on macs.

Originally posted by RacerX

Really? Doesn't feel like it from here. I don't have any reason to be. I'm not mad or upset about any of this. It is just the way things are. Sorry you can't see that.

point taken, if you say you're not emotional i'll just have to believe you. do me favour and believe me too.

Originally posted by RacerX

I'm sorry, but you didn't think that your statement "a bunch of arrogant wimps who don't care about anybody except themselves" extreme. Boy, I would hate to see your version of extreme then.

you probably wouldn't. my version of extreme is not cussing and swearing on a forum. my version of extreme is war. killing. bloodshed. death. you are advocating my version of extreme. sticks and stones may break your bones, but words ... blah blah blah.

Originally posted by RacerX

My characterisation was correct, your attempt was... lets just call it funny.

glad you thought it was funny ... i laughed too. unfortunately i found yours rather arrogantly patronising.

Originally posted by RacerX

Not really.

me neither.

Originally posted by RacerX

All of this is on going (are you getting emotional again?), and yes we (this nation which included my family) did save Europe. And continue to send aid and protects today (you most likely don't live to far from one of our bases). It is sad that you would work so hard to play down the role of the US, it is hard for me not to see bias there.

... er, no i'm not getting emotional again. (even though i don't see what would be wrong with it if i was)... see above. if i'm supposed to believe you, you'll have to believe me. anything else would be patronising.(once more)
and sorry, no, you didn't save europe, neither you nor your family nor the great nation it belongs to.
you helped save europe.
there were other nations involved, in case you forgot. it is sad that you work so hard to play up the role of the us, it is hard not to see arrogance there. don't play down the role of the british and the russians, please. and don't forget hitler also lost the war due to his own arrogance and stupidity, not only because of the "superiority" of his opponents.

Originally posted by RacerX

You assume to know things about me that you can't know. I have held a dying mans head in my lap after a gang had beaten it wide open. I've been shot at more than a few times. I know what pain and suffering is all to well. Avoid it if you can, do it if you must, war is a fact of life.

yeah, well don't we all do that every now and then? i assume too much about you, you assume too much about me. we're humans. we do this kind of stuff.
it is sad that you have had to experience the awful situations you describe.
why would you want to inflict them on other people? is it not enough for you to have suffered that way? why is violence everywhere in the us? i don't know anybody that's ever been shot at, and boy, am i glad about that. i want to live in peace.

and so peace to all mankind.

 

[RacerX]

Originally posted by Soapvox
I am not assuming anything about you, you pulled two different posts together to quote me (and I think the last half is not mine), as for the gang scenario, I think you are assuming, I was a homeless kid on the streets of Phoenix, joined a gang, fought and thank whomever never killed anyone, that is one of the reasons I am the way I am, I had friends die in drive bys and have a scar on my knee where I was grazed, it made me realize all that much more that violence begets violence and only through education and peace can peace thrive.

I made NO assumption about you. But I would point out that you would only assume that people who are arguing your side of this have "love for human life and hold nothing more sacred", that would be presumptuous don't you think?

I find that hard to believe, there are many people all over the world that have little hope and they do not grasp onto hatred, the grab onto faith and follow a peaceful route(look at ghandi) and I think that saying all afghans hate americans is a gross generalization (I am sorry if that was taken out of context).

You shouldn't read in things that are not there (it leave you arguing with yourself). I have at many points said that we are simply the flavor of the month. They fight with each other all the time. As for the teachings of Ghandi, remember that he was very aware of the people (the British) he was working to gain independence from. As I recall, he had a law degree didn't he? And lets look at the nuclear power the his nation has become.